Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Hobbies, Crafts, & Houses > Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

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Captain Splendid: Jan 7, 2009; Qu'en pense Caffarelli?

I have a problem with a couple of questions attached to it. Any help or wisdom would be appreciated:

I tried to take a shower today but, as I was raising the hose to hook the shower head into the hook, I felt my hand and forearm shaking, like pins and needles. My housemate had said something about the shower shocking him but he uses the other one in the apartment so I thought he meant that. I touched the tap at the bottom with the back of my hand and felt what I assume was another shock.

I knocked on the door of the neighbours on my floor and asked to shower there, but the same thing happened again. I've called the landlady, who told me to "shower with gloves on", but she's also called the company that supervises the building.

Since then, my third housemate tried to replicate the issue without success and the kitchen tap didn't seem to cause it either,

My questions are:

- was my getting shocked in the other apartment a sign that it's in the building or was it from me being shocked the first time?

- if it's a building-wide problem, why is it only the showers? Why did it only become apparent when raising the showerhead both times? Does the fact that a lot of water's running through the pipes affect the shock? Is it some kind of static buildup from the friction of the water?

- can I use the other taps (i.e. kitchen) safely?

Note: it's not an electric shower, the hot water comes from a gas boiler with no hot water tank

# ? Jul 4, 2020 15:55

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# ? May 24, 2024 18:42

tater_salad: Sep 15, 2007

Sounds like electricity is leaking into one or more of your supply lines and should 100% be looked at by a qualified electrician.. lol at shower with gloves on.

It's not static buildup from water flowing.
No one can say 100% you're safe to use anything but generally your sink / toilet supply lines aren't metal where your shower / tub lines are most likely copper / metal all the way which is standard practice.

My non sparkie opinion. Something is hosed and grounding out to a pipe and electrifying them.

tater_salad fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Jul 4, 2020

# ? Jul 4, 2020 16:04

Captain Splendid: Jan 7, 2009; Qu'en pense Caffarelli?

I think I figured out why my housemate couldn't reproduce the problem: he wasn't naked

tater_salad posted:

My non sparkie opinion. Something is hosed and grounding out to a pipe and electrifying them.

I called my navy electrician stepfather and he guessed the same.

Captain Splendid fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Jul 4, 2020

# ? Jul 4, 2020 16:26

H110Hawk: Dec 28, 2006

Captain Splendid posted:

I have a problem with a couple of questions attached to it. Any help or wisdom would be appreciated:

I tried to take a shower today but, as I was raising the hose to hook the shower head into the hook, I felt my hand and forearm shaking, like pins and needles. My housemate had said something about the shower shocking him but he uses the other one in the apartment so I thought he meant that. I touched the tap at the bottom with the back of my hand and felt what I assume was another shock.

I knocked on the door of the neighbours on my floor and asked to shower there, but the same thing happened again. I've called the landlady, who told me to "shower with gloves on", but she's also called the company that supervises the building.

Since then, my third housemate tried to replicate the issue without success and the kitchen tap didn't seem to cause it either,

My questions are:

- was my getting shocked in the other apartment a sign that it's in the building or was it from me being shocked the first time?

- if it's a building-wide problem, why is it only the showers? Why did it only become apparent when raising the showerhead both times? Does the fact that a lot of water's running through the pipes affect the shock? Is it some kind of static buildup from the friction of the water?

- can I use the other taps (i.e. kitchen) safely?

Note: it's not an electric shower, the hot water comes from a gas boiler with no hot water tank

This is a dangerous situation where you wouldn't be wrong to demand an emergency call out. Being able to feel enough current through your shower into your arm could lead to electrocution.

Got a multimeter? :q:

Don't shower in that shower again until an electrician is out there, replicates the issue, and then finds a clear cause.

# ? Jul 4, 2020 16:53

SpartanIvy: May 18, 2007; Hair Elf

I found out yesterday that my bedroom ceiling fan supplies the power to my garage and that the insulation is falling off of the wires so today I'm crawling up in my billion degree attic to rerun the wiring and hopefully find a better circuit to splice the garage into. Yay homeownership.

# ? Jul 4, 2020 17:02

movax: Aug 30, 2008

Motronic posted:

So there are two different kinds.

The kind we're talking about being hazardous are spring clips where you jam a wire in there and it catches. Great.....that works for now. But it's such a small contact point that it ends up dirty/corroded/overloaded for the size of the cable that problems start. Those problems manifest as heat. Which means movement.

Now your spring clip is moving. All the time. Springs degrade not because they are in compression but because they move. It's a cycle count thing.

So now you have a weaker clamp. So the connection is worse. It cycles more frequently and more physically. Until it arcs. Now you have some serious heat and that's how the fires start.

The other kind of back stab looking thing is just a hole in the back of the outlet or switch that is not a spring slip at all, but a clamp you tighten down with a screwdriver so make a positive connection. Those seem to be fine.

Ah, thanks, got it. In updating a lot of my outlets and switches, none really had the grounds connected which was surprising considering that it was right there in the goddamned box.

Since I�m going through and painting, I�ll unstab the ones I stabbed when I get to taking off the faceplates and will just do the screwdriver tightened ones for the new switches and outlets I�m putting in.

# ? Jul 4, 2020 17:35

shame on an IGA: Apr 8, 2005

Captain Splendid posted:

I have a problem with a couple of questions attached to it. Any help or wisdom would be appreciated:

I tried to take a shower today but, as I was raising the hose to hook the shower head into the hook, I felt my hand and forearm shaking, like pins and needles. My housemate had said something about the shower shocking him but he uses the other one in the apartment so I thought he meant that. I touched the tap at the bottom with the back of my hand and felt what I assume was another shock.

I knocked on the door of the neighbours on my floor and asked to shower there, but the same thing happened again. I've called the landlady, who told me to "shower with gloves on", but she's also called the company that supervises the building.

Since then, my third housemate tried to replicate the issue without success and the kitchen tap didn't seem to cause it either,

My questions are:

- was my getting shocked in the other apartment a sign that it's in the building or was it from me being shocked the first time?

- if it's a building-wide problem, why is it only the showers? Why did it only become apparent when raising the showerhead both times? Does the fact that a lot of water's running through the pipes affect the shock? Is it some kind of static buildup from the friction of the water?

- can I use the other taps (i.e. kitchen) safely?

Note: it's not an electric shower, the hot water comes from a gas boiler with no hot water tank

This is an immediate danger to life and health and you should be banging doors warning the neighbors not to shower

# ? Jul 4, 2020 17:48

shame on an IGA: Apr 8, 2005

Somewhere in your building a hot wire is in contact with metal drain piping and the supply lines are connected to ground on purpose, that's common practice in older buildings, which you're in if you have metal drain pipes. Once you've got a good flow of water touching the drain and a salty you standing in it reaching for the showerhead and closing the circuit, buzz buzz.

So since there's a live wire flapping around somewhere there shouldn't be there's also a fire risk in addition to the shock hazard.

# ? Jul 4, 2020 18:06

Bad Munki: Nov 4, 2008; We're all mad here.

Nah just wear the gloves, I�m sure that�ll do

# ? Jul 4, 2020 18:12

H110Hawk: Dec 28, 2006

Oh yeah and if both bathrooms are down due to this you likely qualify for alternative housing due to your apartment failing to qualify as habitable. Unless you live in Alabama (Arkansas? One of those states has basically no renters rights.) I would call your landlord back right now and start talking about which hotel you should go to if it won't be fixed today. Then go make your neighbors do the same. A tingle in your dingle should only be from a tens unit.

If you had a pacemaker you would likely be dead right now.

# ? Jul 4, 2020 18:36

Captain Splendid: Jan 7, 2009; Qu'en pense Caffarelli?

I'm in Barcelona, and it seems the only number anyone has for the admin company is Mon-Fri

My living situation is, shall we say "irregular" so nothing's guaranteed here. I'm looking to move asap, anyway.

One of the neighbours, whose grandmother also lives with him, has said he'll call and keep me updated on everything.

When I told the "landlady" that people were saying it could literally kill someone her response was:

"As long as you don't use the shower there's no risk then! :smuggo:

"

So, yeah. gently caress her.

shame on an IGA posted:

Well at least it's not the third biggest holiday of the year then because no way would that be getting fixed today in the US

It's a regular Saturday here but the result is the same :shrug:

Captain Splendid fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Jul 4, 2020

# ? Jul 4, 2020 18:44

shame on an IGA: Apr 8, 2005

Well at least it's not the third biggest holiday of the year then because no way would that be getting fixed today in the US

# ? Jul 4, 2020 18:47

kid sinister: Nov 16, 2002

SpartanIvy posted:

I found out yesterday that my bedroom ceiling fan supplies the power to my garage and that the insulation is falling off of the wires so today I'm crawling up in my billion degree attic to rerun the wiring and hopefully find a better circuit to splice the garage into. Yay homeownership.

Hindsight is 20/20. Do it at 4 in the morning.

# ? Jul 4, 2020 20:31

Hubis: May 18, 2003; Boy, I wish we had one of those doomsday machines...

shocks in the shower aren't anything to mess around with

... Even a year after the first article

# ? Jul 4, 2020 21:36

Captain Splendid: Jan 7, 2009; Qu'en pense Caffarelli?

Hubis posted:

shocks in the shower aren't anything to mess around with

... Even a year after the first article

Can't open the first link, do you have a screenshot or anything?

# ? Jul 5, 2020 00:30

SpartanIvy: May 18, 2007; Hair Elf

kid sinister posted:

Hindsight is 20/20. Do it at 4 in the morning.

I setup a big box fan pointed at me and finished most of the work by 2PM and it was actually pretty bearable. I didnt need to do as much work as I thought because the condition of the wire in the attic was better than the wire in the ceiling box. I moved everything into a junction box and ran a small run of romex down to the ceiling box for the fan.

Everything is 12 gauge and the only thing in my garage right now is lighting so I decided to leave it be for the time being. I never trusted the garage outlet too much anyway so almost all of my tools are battery powered.

SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Jul 5, 2020

# ? Jul 5, 2020 01:03

Hubis: May 18, 2003; Boy, I wish we had one of those doomsday machines...

Captain Splendid posted:

Can't open the first link, do you have a screenshot or anything?

Weird. Here's another story about the same set of events and here's the original text:

quote:

Faulty wiring killing U.S. soldiers in Iraq

New York Times News ServiceThe B altimore Sun

WASHINGTON -- In October 2004, the U.S. Army issued an urgent bulletin to commanders across Iraq, warning them of a deadly new threat to American soldiers. Because of flawed electrical work by contractors, the bulletin stated, soldiers at American bases in Iraq had received severe electrical shocks, and some had even been electrocuted.

The bulletin, with the headline "The Unexpected Killer," was issued after the horrific deaths of two soldiers who were caught in water -- one in a shower, the other in a swimming pool -- that was suddenly electrified after poorly grounded wiring short-circuited.

"We've had several shocks in showers and near misses here in Baghdad, as well as in other parts of the country," Frank Trent, an expert with the Army Corps of Engineers, wrote in the bulletin. "As we install temporary and permanent power on our projects, we must ensure that we require contractors to properly ground electrical systems."

Since that warning, at least two more American soldiers have been electrocuted in similar incidents. In all, at least a dozen American military personnel have been electrocuted in Iraq, according to the Pentagon and congressional investigators.

While several deaths have been attributed to inadvertent contact with power lines under battlefield conditions, the Army bulletin said that five deaths over the preceding year had apparently been caused by faulty grounding, and the circumstances of others have not been fully explained by the Army. Many more soldiers have been injured by shocks, Pentagon officials and soldiers say.

The accidental deaths and close calls, which are being investigated by Congress and the Defense Department's inspector general, raise new questions about the oversight of contractors in the war zone, where unjustified killings by security guards, shoddy reconstruction projects and fraud involving military supplies have spurred previous inquiries.

American electricians who worked for KBR, the Houston-based defense contractor that is responsible for maintaining American bases in Iraq and Afghanistan, said they repeatedly warned company managers and military officials about unsafe electrical work, which was often performed by poorly trained Iraqis and Afghans paid just a few dollars a day.

One electrician warned his KBR bosses in his 2005 letter of resignation that unsafe electrical work was "a disaster waiting to happen."

Another said he witnessed an American soldier in Afghanistan receiving a potentially lethal shock.

A third provided e-mail messages and other documents showing that he had complained to KBR and the government that logs were created to make it appear that nonexistent electrical safety systems were properly functioning.

KBR told the Pentagon in early 2007 about unsafe electrical wiring at a base near the Baghdad airport, but no repairs were made. Less than a year later, a soldier was electrocuted in a shower there.

"I don't feel like they did their job," Carmen Nolasco Duran of La Puente, Calif., said of Pentagon officials. Her brother, Spc. Marcos O. Nolasco, was electrocuted at a base in Baiji in May 2004 while showering. "They hired these contractors, and yet they didn't go and double-check that the work was fine."

The Defense Contract Management Agency, which is responsible for supervising maintenance work by contractors at American bases in Iraq, defended its performance. In a written statement, the agency said it had no information that staff members "were aware" of the Army alert or "failed to take appropriate action in response to unsafe conditions brought to our attention."

Keith Ernst, who stepped down Wednesday as the agency's director, acknowledged, though, that the agency was "stretched too thin" in Iraq and that the small number of contract officers did not have expertise in dealing with so-called life support contracts, like that awarded to KBR to provide food, shelter and building maintenance. "We don't have the technical capability for overseeing life support systems," he said.

For its part, KBR, which until last year was known as Kellogg, Brown and Root and was a subsidiary of Halliburton, denied that any lapses by the company had led to the electrocutions of American soldiers.

"KBR's commitment to employee safety and the safety of those the company serves is unwavering," said a spokeswoman, Heather Browne. "KBR has found no evidence of a link between the work it has been tasked to perform and the reported electrocutions."

Browne declined to respond to the specific charges or assertions of former KBR electricians.

Hubis fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Jul 5, 2020

# ? Jul 5, 2020 06:02

Captain Splendid: Jan 7, 2009; Qu'en pense Caffarelli?

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

It turns out my building has its own technicians who won't be coming until Monday.

Presumably if the building burnt down at 17:01 on a Friday they'd send someone down first thing on Monday too... :negative:

# ? Jul 5, 2020 10:36

Captain Splendid: Jan 7, 2009; Qu'en pense Caffarelli?

Allegedly the building is now safely grounded and I shouldn't get electrocuted while showering.

There's only one way to know for sure and I need to shower now.

# ? Jul 6, 2020 19:20

Motronic: Nov 6, 2009

Captain Splendid posted:

Allegedly the building is now safely grounded and I shouldn't get electrocuted while showering.

There's only one way to know for sure and I need to shower now.

# ? Jul 6, 2020 19:27

angryrobots: Mar 31, 2005

Captain Splendid posted:

Allegedly the building is now safely grounded and I shouldn't get electrocuted while showering.

There's only one way to know for sure and I need to shower now.

I'm hoping that whatever they did involved testing your shower with a volt meter before and after their work?

# ? Jul 6, 2020 19:36

kecske: Feb 28, 2011; it's round, like always

Captain Splendid posted:

Allegedly the building is now safely grounded and I shouldn't get electrocuted while showering.

There's only one way to know for sure and I need to shower now.

dont forget to wear gloves

# ? Jul 6, 2020 19:38

Captain Splendid: Jan 7, 2009; Qu'en pense Caffarelli?

It is not fixed :v:

angryrobots posted:

I'm hoping that whatever they did involved testing your shower with a volt meter before and after their work?

Not mine at the very least, it's the whole building that seems to be affected

# ? Jul 6, 2020 19:42

kecske: Feb 28, 2011; it's round, like always

surely whoever came in to inspect and fix it has done a Zs test on one of the shower circuits (idk what you call it there, a ground/earth fault loop impedance test). An incomplete earth/ground path would present itself very quickly.

# ? Jul 6, 2020 19:49

Captain Splendid: Jan 7, 2009; Qu'en pense Caffarelli?

kecske posted:

surely whoever came in to inspect and fix it has done a Zs test on one of the shower circuits (idk what you call it there, a ground/earth fault loop impedance test). An incomplete earth/ground path would present itself very quickly.

You would think so, wouldn't you? :shrug:

# ? Jul 6, 2020 19:55

H110Hawk: Dec 28, 2006

Captain Splendid posted:

You would think so, wouldn't you?

You shouldn't get back in that shower until someone shows you 0v across the fixtures to ground. Period. This is like "call your local equivalent of the fire Marshall" territory. "hi I just got electrocuted in my shower. The landlord says they fixed it but never tested my shower and I don't want to die." should be all you need to say to the correct person.

# ? Jul 6, 2020 20:42

Captain Splendid: Jan 7, 2009; Qu'en pense Caffarelli?

It's not really the shower per se so much as the entire plumbing.

Opened the tap to the sink after washing myself with a pot of water again and did it barefoot without thinking. Ouch.

If I had a multimeter, where would I need to put the probes to check to see if the taps were safe?

# ? Jul 6, 2020 20:47

SpartanIvy: May 18, 2007; Hair Elf

Touching the metal drain and the water spout should do it.

I suspect what happened is your plumbing was used as a ground as was done in the old days.

Then at some point an important piece was replaced with PEX or PVC and no longer conductive.

Then a fault happened in the electrical system and the original ground around the water supply pipes no longer connects to the ground, so the electricity is travelling through the water and you to travel between the ungrounded plumbing and the sewer line which presumably is cast iron or something metal and connected to the ground.

# ? Jul 6, 2020 21:20

angryrobots: Mar 31, 2005

IDK how Spain does electrical, but in many systems it could also be a neutral current seeking an alternative path through the plumbing.

Just as dangerous, and a right fucker to find sometimes. As the poster above said, this situation could have existed for years (though incorrect) but never causing a noticeable issue, then a metal pipe gets changed to non metallic and you have a difference in potential.

# ? Jul 6, 2020 21:29

H110Hawk: Dec 28, 2006

angryrobots posted:

IDK how Spain does electrical, but in many systems it could also be a neutral current seeking an alternative path through the plumbing.

Just as dangerous, and a right fucker to find sometimes. As the poster above said, this situation could have existed for years (though incorrect) but never causing a noticeable issue, then a metal pipe gets changed to non metallic and you have a difference in potential.

Or some fitting got just enough rust on it.

# ? Jul 6, 2020 21:50

Hubis: May 18, 2003; Boy, I wish we had one of those doomsday machines...

angryrobots posted:

IDK how Spain does electrical, but in many systems it could also be a neutral current seeking an alternative path through the plumbing.

Just as dangerous, and a right fucker to find sometimes. As the poster above said, this situation could have existed for years (though incorrect) but never causing a noticeable issue, then a metal pipe gets changed to non metallic and you have a difference in potential.

Dibs on "Ground Provided somewhere by tying to Pipes" + "Pipes not properly grounded due to PVC/PEX" + "Grounding 'Upgrade' done somewhere by tying the Ground to Neutral in the box" (not sure how common that is in Spain though).

# ? Jul 6, 2020 22:04

SpartanIvy: May 18, 2007; Hair Elf

That reminds me that until I redid my plumbing with PEX last year my grounding was the plumbing as well. While I had proper grounding rods installed, I still have the original grounding wire still wrapped around some remnants of the old plumbing I didn't tear out. I should probably sever that so nothing fucky happens down the road.

# ? Jul 6, 2020 22:56

corgski: Feb 6, 2007; Silly goose, you're here forever.

If the line coming in from underground is metal you should still have your ground bonded to the cold water line where it enters the house before the meter/inside shutoff/PRV in addition to the grounding rod, even if the entire rest of the system is PEX/CPVC.

# ? Jul 6, 2020 23:00

Blackbeer: Aug 13, 2007; well, well, well

angryrobots posted:

IDK how Spain does electrical, but in many systems it could also be a neutral current seeking an alternative path through the plumbing.

Just as dangerous, and a right fucker to find sometimes. As the poster above said, this situation could have existed for years (though incorrect) but never causing a noticeable issue, then a metal pipe gets changed to non metallic and you have a difference in potential.

I'd bet money on this ^^^^ They might not have changed any piping, just changed where they bonded ground and neutral and created a neutral loop somewhere.

Also, like corgski said, even if all the lines in the building are replaced w/ pex the incoming water line (if metal) should be good to go for a bond.

For the US NEC, the only place to bond (re: waterlines) is within 5' of where the water service enters the home and the piping before and after the meter must be bonded with a jumper.

edit: sorry, when I said "the only place to bond" I had grounding electrodes, not general bonding, in mind.

Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Jul 6, 2020

# ? Jul 6, 2020 23:13

corgski: Feb 6, 2007; Silly goose, you're here forever.

In fact, if the water pipe coming in is metal (and in direct contact with earth for at least 3m, but that's safe to assume is always the case) it's required that it be bonded as part of the grounding system. NEC 2017 250.50 and 250.52(a)(1)

# ? Jul 6, 2020 23:18

Sirotan: Oct 17, 2006; Sirotan is a seal.

Quoting myself here from the home spergin thread from a couple months ago when the crew installing a perimeter drain in my basement ruptured the water line, and when the plumber arrived to replace the broken section, they learned that my house was only grounded to the water line.

Sirotan posted:

Sorry the quality is poo poo because dude couldn't figure out how to send this to me any way but via MMS:

https://i.imgur.com/0MYChVK.mp4

Luckily I have grounding rods now :v:

# ? Jul 6, 2020 23:27

Blackbeer: Aug 13, 2007; well, well, well

corgski posted:

In fact, if the water pipe coming in is metal (and in direct contact with earth for at least 3m, but that's safe to assume is always the case) it's required that it be bonded as part of the grounding system. NEC 2017 250.50 and 250.52(a)(1)

You're not required to use metal water service pipes as a grounding electrode, but you do need metal piping bonded to ground per 250.4(A)4 in most jurisdictions.

edit: oh poo poo, just realized I referred to bonding in the earlier post when I meant using the waterline as a grounding electrode.

Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jul 6, 2020

# ? Jul 6, 2020 23:29

angryrobots: Mar 31, 2005

Sirotan posted:

Quoting myself here from the home spergin thread from a couple months ago when the crew installing a perimeter drain in my basement ruptured the water line, and when the plumber arrived to replace the broken section, they learned that my house was only grounded to the water line.

Luckily I have grounding rods now

I hope that the electrician also found the source of that current. A grounding electrode to earth should not be a current path in a normal situation.

Yours is not just a "grounding" problem, there's an open neutral seeking an alternative path.

# ? Jul 6, 2020 23:35

Blackbeer: Aug 13, 2007; well, well, well

Sirotan posted:

Quoting myself here from the home spergin thread from a couple months ago when the crew installing a perimeter drain in my basement ruptured the water line, and when the plumber arrived to replace the broken section, they learned that my house was only grounded to the water line.

I don't see how that happens without losing your neutral and having your earth ground (which is bonded to the neutral at the service disconnect in a home) providing the return path for the 120V circuits, would love to hear the systems/engineering minded people's explanation.

# ? Jul 6, 2020 23:36

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# ? May 24, 2024 18:42

Captain Splendid: Jan 7, 2009; Qu'en pense Caffarelli?

We had the power down on Thursday for four hours while it underwent maintenance so I'd be amazed if that wasn't in some way linked

# ? Jul 6, 2020 23:40

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Hobbies, Crafts, & Houses > Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

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