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Bloody Emissary posted:You had me until you started talking about epsilon, at which point I lost track of the referents. Does Bruceski's explanation jive with what you were getting at? Sorry, I was trying to shortcut a bit of the mathematical notation for brevity. In essence, you can't possibly add together infinitely many numbers, but you can add any finite set of numbers, and the result will always be a number of the same type. (Integer, rational, real, etc.) So instead of trying to deal with an infinite sum, we'll deal with just the sum of the first n terms. We call that the nth partial sum. I use Zeno and Newton for my example because it assigns names to the variables in "delta-epsilon" proofs. Zeno doesn't believe in limits, so he says that the infinite sum of .9 + .09 + .009 + ... can't add to a finite number, such as one. So Newton challenges Zeno to choose the smallest positive number he can think of. In calculus, we use the Greek letter epsilon to represent that number, but here, we can just call it Zeno's number. It's tiny, maybe "one divided by one with one million zeroes after it", or ten to the negative one millionth power. What matters is that it is a fixed, very small number. Now, Newton can calculate a value of n that is so large, the nth partial sum of .9 + .09 + .009 + ... is less than Zeno's number above or below one. Namely, the absolute value of (1 - .9999999) [n nines] is less than Zeno's number. Furthermore, every partial sum after n (any more than n nines) is also within a distance of Zeno's number from one. Zeno has attempted to state that the infinite sum cannot equal one, and he has attempted to place a boundary around one such that the infinite sum does not lie within that boundary. Newton, in turn, shows that the chosen boundary not only fails to separate the partial sums from one, but that there are in fact infinitely many partial sums that lie within that boundary. Newton can show this property for any number that Zeno names - the general form of the proof of the limit simply uses the variable epsilon to stand for "any positive number, however small" and generates a formula for the desired n in terms of epsilon. This proves that there is no positive number that forms a lower bound on the difference between the partial sums and the limit. You can't draw a line any distance from the limit such that the sum doesn't cross that line and, having crossed it, the sum stays within that line forever, for infinitely many terms. The difference between the limit and the result of adding infinitely many terms of the sum can't possibly be greater than zero. Thus, it must be zero, and so the limit must equal the result of the infinite sum. When you work with functions and values of x approaching a finite value, we call Newton's number "delta", but the idea is the same. I hope that at least benefits some calculus student somewhere who's been having problems with delta-epsilon proofs. I know my calculus teacher wasn't fond of trying to explain how they worked and just gave us the form to copy and modify as necessary. Yakumo posted:Okay. So, let's just break this all the way down and see if that helps. For the purposes of this explanation, we're going to say the prize is behind door C. Monty knows where the prize is so he will never open that door. I think you just gave me an idea for how to explain this in terms that will make sense to every fan of this series. I just need to draw some diagrams. I'll be back later.
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Jul 8, 2020 11:38
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So, I have a question. Are there parts of the flowchart you don't need to fill out to 'finish' the games endings?
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Jul 8, 2020 12:00
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Onmi posted:So, I have a question. Are there parts of the flowchart you don't need to fill out to 'finish' the games endings? I don't think actually need to get most of those 'bad ends' from the decon rooms. There's definitely one bad end the game never makes you get and it's more of an easter egg, though it clearly shows up on the chart..
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Jul 8, 2020 12:11
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bewilderment posted:I don't think actually need to get most of those 'bad ends' from the decon rooms. I meant more full rooms. Like can you finish the game not doing Control or Transporter?
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Jul 8, 2020 12:17
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Apologies for making the derail even worse, but I have diagrams this time. We all love the Zero Escape games, and those of us who played the original version of 999 really, really love flowcharts. So, let's consider the Monty Hall problem as a multiverse exercise with a flowchart to illustrate the possible timelines: There are two decision points in the game: First, the contestant chooses a door, which may or may not have a prize. Going with the 100 doors version, this gives a simple 1% chance that the contestant has chosen the correct door. With only that choice established, we can place clear probabilities on the two timelines. Next, the host opens 98 doors, excluding the one which the contestant chose. Again, the timeline splits only based on whether the prize is revealed or not, leading to a total of four timelines, which we'll call A, B, C, and the one where M' goes back to the 1920s and gets Dr. B interested in science. Astute readers may notice a problem with this model: The timeline marked A, where the contestant chooses the correct door and the host opens a door containing the prize, is impossible. That would require the prize to be behind two different doors at once. So, let's just cross that off the diagram and continue:  So now there are only three timelines remaining: B, C, and D. Each of these is technically possible, but we don't know the exact probabilities of any of them yet. But this is where the fact that the host knows where the prize is comes into play. In the statement of the Monty Hall problem, we are told that the host never opens the door with the prize, even if it's not the one the contestant chose. That makes timeline C also impossible. If we try to SHIFT there, K steps in front of the green door and refuses to let us through for reasons that only become clear when we see the entire timeline in all its multicolored glory. So, with that extra piece of information, we can cross C off the diagram as well:  Look what this has done. Once we've made the first choice, which we all agreed had a 1% probability of being right, we're locked into a linear timeline from there. We can ignore the second decision point completely, because we know what the outcome will be and can predict our endpoint on the chart without waiting for the host to open the doors. If we were right at the first decision point, then we are in timeline B. If we were wrong, we're in timeline D. And the preview pictures for both fragments are the same - the host has opened 98 doors, revealing no prize, and we are asked whether the prize is behind our chosen door or the other unopened door. If we find ourselves in one of these two timelines, there is no way to distinguish which one it is based on the visible information, and we must guess which one it is to decide the correct action. The probability of B must be 1%, because there's nowhere else to go in the timeline to further distribute that probability. Likewise, the probability of D is 99%. As a contrast, the Deal or No Deal version of the problem is different because we can't cross timeline C off the chart, and we're stuck in the second diagram. Because the contestant chooses which door/case to reveal and does not know where the prize is, there is a possibility of ending up in timeline C, where the revealed door/case has the prize. Thus, finding oneself in a timeline where an opened door doesn't have a prize changes the probability of being in timeline B rather than D. We gain the information that we are not in timeline C, and the probability that was previously assigned to timeline C is split between timelines B and D. In the third diagram, that is not new information - C has already been crossed off. It has zero probability and can contribute nothing to the probability of B through further erasure. To put it another way, we can't jump to the bottom of the chart based on the first decision because if we were wrong, the second decision point affects the observed outcome. We have to wait until the second door is opened before we can distinguish between C and D. Thus, by the time we're able to assign probabilities to the bottom tier of the chart, at least one door has been opened, and once we've seen what's inside that door, there are fewer unknowns. The probability at the first decision point changes because there are now fewer than 100 doors that could contain a prize. I hope that helps.
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Jul 8, 2020 12:45
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I spent probably 2-3 hours today trying to explain the Monty Hall problem to someone, and I'd still rather do that all over again than even attempt another half hour of the Sleeping Beauty problem.
ApplesandOranges fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Jul 8, 2020 |
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Jul 8, 2020 12:49
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Onmi posted:I meant more full rooms. Like can you finish the game not doing Control or Transporter? Ya gotta do every escape room. You need to get all the regular endings to get the true end, which requires every timeline.
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Jul 8, 2020 12:51
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bewilderment posted:Ya gotta do every escape room. You need to get all the regular endings to get the true end, which requires every timeline. Got it, Thank you.
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Jul 8, 2020 12:55
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In minor trivia, Junpei's VA has apparently said that he's canonically (at least, as far as the localization team goes) bisexual. So uh, go nuts I guess if you really like your JunpeixCarlos ship or something.
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Jul 8, 2020 14:33
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I'm unsure how we managed to be tied after 80 votes but you all have until I get home from work to figure it out.
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Jul 8, 2020 14:38
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Or JunpeixSanta or JunpeixSnake if you're old-school
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Jul 8, 2020 14:38
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Leraika posted:Or JunpeixSanta or JunpeixSnake if you're old-school
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Jul 8, 2020 15:21
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DKII posted:I'm unsure how we managed to be tied after 80 votes but you all have until I get home from work to figure it out. Here's how people should figure it out: Vote for the same thing I voted for. Obviously, this is the only correct decision!
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Jul 8, 2020 15:27
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What's going to happen is that everyone is gonna wake up in a decontamination room with an option to kill the other voters with an acid shower.
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Jul 8, 2020 15:31
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Either way, we still haven't seen the special D team decontamination scene that only plays after we see the execution
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Jul 8, 2020 16:37
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What we need to do is run a poll with three options labeled A, B and C. Behind one of these options, chosen by DK II, is the update with the third Execution Vote. After being open for 24 hours, DK will reveal one of the two options that didn't win, as long as that option is not the Execution Vote. He will then offer to let us either keep the most popular vote, or switch to the losing vote that he didn't reveal.
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Jul 8, 2020 17:27
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W.T. Fits posted:What we need to do is run a poll with three options labeled A, B and C. Behind one of these options, chosen by DK II, is the update with the third Execution Vote. After being open for 24 hours, DK will reveal one of the two options that didn't win, as long as that option is not the Execution Vote. He will then offer to let us either keep the most popular vote, or switch to the losing vote that he didn't reveal. But what if the poll is open for more than 90 minutes and he forgets which option is the winning one? Then him revealing another option would change the odds!
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Jul 8, 2020 18:07
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Nidoking posted:I hope that helps. Needs more snail
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Jul 8, 2020 18:34
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DKII posted:I'm unsure how we managed to be tied after 80 votes but you all have until I get home from work to figure it out. Time to choose, Carlos.
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Jul 8, 2020 18:53
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MagusofStars posted:IIRC, there was at least one vote in the VLR thread which was tied after like, 100 votes and then kept being tied at a slightly higher number of votes every single time Fedule tried to close the poll. Yeah but that usually resulted in Fedule leaving polls running for several months before eventually making an update.
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Jul 8, 2020 19:32
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Nidoking posted:But what if the poll is open for more than 90 minutes and he forgets which option is the winning one? Then him revealing another option would change the odds! Then we just need to determine if it is the first poll or if we were asleep during it.
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Jul 8, 2020 20:07
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Nidoking posted:Sorry, I was trying to shortcut a bit of the mathematical notation for brevity. In essence, you can't possibly add together infinitely many numbers, but you can add any finite set of numbers, and the result will always be a number of the same type. (Integer, rational, real, etc.) So instead of trying to deal with an infinite sum, we'll deal with just the sum of the first n terms. We call that the nth partial sum. I use Zeno and Newton for my example because it assigns names to the variables in "delta-epsilon" proofs. Zeno doesn't believe in limits, so he says that the infinite sum of .9 + .09 + .009 + ... can't add to a finite number, such as one. So Newton challenges Zeno to choose the smallest positive number he can think of. In calculus, we use the Greek letter epsilon to represent that number, but here, we can just call it Zeno's number. It's tiny, maybe "one divided by one with one million zeroes after it", or ten to the negative one millionth power. What matters is that it is a fixed, very small number. Now, Newton can calculate a value of n that is so large, the nth partial sum of .9 + .09 + .009 + ... is less than Zeno's number above or below one. Namely, the absolute value of (1 - .9999999) [n nines] is less than Zeno's number. Furthermore, every partial sum after n (any more than n nines) is also within a distance of Zeno's number from one. Zeno has attempted to state that the infinite sum cannot equal one, and he has attempted to place a boundary around one such that the infinite sum does not lie within that boundary. Newton, in turn, shows that the chosen boundary not only fails to separate the partial sums from one, but that there are in fact infinitely many partial sums that lie within that boundary. Newton can show this property for any number that Zeno names - the general form of the proof of the limit simply uses the variable epsilon to stand for "any positive number, however small" and generates a formula for the desired n in terms of epsilon. This proves that there is no positive number that forms a lower bound on the difference between the partial sums and the limit. You can't draw a line any distance from the limit such that the sum doesn't cross that line and, having crossed it, the sum stays within that line forever, for infinitely many terms. The difference between the limit and the result of adding infinitely many terms of the sum can't possibly be greater than zero. Thus, it must be zero, and so the limit must equal the result of the infinite sum. When you work with functions and values of x approaching a finite value, we call Newton's number "delta", but the idea is the same. That seems like a really complicated way to say "'there's infinitely many points between any two points on a line' means there's always a I appreciate the explanation of Zeno's and Newton's numbers; now I understand what they are exactly. 
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Jul 8, 2020 20:47
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ApplesandOranges posted:In minor trivia, Junpei's VA has apparently said that he's canonically (at least, as far as the localization team goes) bisexual. He's only ever had eyes for Akane, though. Him being bi is nice, but it something he seems unlikely to act on given how his VLR history went.
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Jul 8, 2020 20:49
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Bloody Emissary posted:That seems like a really complicated way to say "'there's infinitely many points between any two points on a line' Zeno explicitly rejects this, his paradoxes are attempts to show that there can't be infinitely many points between any two points. He was wrong of course, but it's not obvious. As for being an extremely complicated way, you're right but simpler definitions for infinitesimal Calculus fail in horrible and interesting ways. Or it's the topological definition, which is way too abstract and divorced from the intuitive concept of limit to use as a starter.
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Jul 8, 2020 21:16
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Leraika posted:or JunpeixSnake if you're old-school Yes please
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Jul 8, 2020 21:45
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Bloody Emissary posted:That seems like a really complicated way to say "'there's infinitely many points between any two points on a line' means there's always a More specifically, "There's infinitely many points between A and B, but if I carry on the way I'm going, I will eventually get closer to B than any of them."
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Jul 8, 2020 21:55
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DKII: You might as well just plan on doing both, I'm pretty sure whichever option loses this one will win in a landslide on the next vote anyway.
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Jul 8, 2020 23:17
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whitehelm posted:DKII: You might as well just plan on doing both, I'm pretty sure whichever option loses this one will win in a landslide on the next vote anyway. Not necessarily. If the Control Room wins, then we'll probably end up voting for whichever of its two endings we didn't get after completing it the first time. 
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Jul 9, 2020 00:22
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Meanwhile, in the real world, I'm pretty sure you can't get arbitrarily close to some point in space and/or time without quantum mechanics shenanigans coming into play...
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Jul 9, 2020 01:29
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dotchan posted:Meanwhile, in the real world, I'm pretty sure you can't get arbitrarily close to some point in space and/or time without quantum mechanics shenanigans coming into play... This is another punchline I would bring up if I used the Zeno/Newton dialogue as an actual teaching method. Since we start with the arrow paradox (an arrow shot at a target must complete half of its journey, infinitely many times, before reaching the target), Newton can point out that even though the distance can be divided infinitely many times if you're just looking at the numbers, it will eventually be so close to the target that the gap between them is less than the width of a single atom. Zeno then asks "What's an atom?" I haven't looked up whether the atom was defined before or after Zeno's time, and I don't plan to because I like the joke that much. I should really, really, never be allowed to teach a calculus class. If nothing else, I pledge to spend a week calculating integrals using Riemann sums before bringing up the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus, just so the students can appreciate why it's called that.
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Jul 9, 2020 01:44
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I think if I was gonna teach a class on game theory, I'd just set Monty Hall on them and that'd easily take up two lesson plans as they debate about it. Sleeping Beauty would get me three.
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Jul 9, 2020 01:46
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 MagusofStars posted:IIRC, there was at least one vote in the VLR thread which was tied after like, 100 votes and then kept being tied at a slightly higher number of votes every single time Fedule tried to close the poll. I don't know how you managed it, but we hit 146 votes (the previous record was 90!) and still ended up tied. whitehelm posted:DKII: You might as well just plan on doing both, I'm pretty sure whichever option loses this one will win in a landslide on the next vote anyway. I happen to have both recorded and written up already, I think I'll try and get them both up tonight to reward the thread for a lively discussion.
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Jul 9, 2020 02:04
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This must be the timeline where everybody hit 'go against the note! betrayal!' and we all ended up tied again anyway.
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Jul 9, 2020 02:12
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Nidoking posted:I haven't looked up whether the atom was defined before or after Zeno's time, and I don't plan to because I like the joke that much. Roughly contemporaneous. Leucippus and his pupil Democritus are supposedly the earliest developers of atomic theory; Leucippus' lifetime is uncertain but Democritus lived from approx. 460-370 BCE. Zeno lived from 495-430 BCE.
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Jul 9, 2020 02:32
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Part 61: C-Team Executed Uhh, that's a lot of votes to end up tied. Guess I have to do both?  Before we begin, I had to go replay Q-Team's Execution a third time to reset their vote back to C-Team. Otherwise our D-Team switch wouldn't accomplish anything.  Sorry Carlos and friends, but you've got to go.  Music: CQD: BAD END  Once again, our vote is accepted.   Why did you vote for C-Team...?! It's almost like some external force just took over her hand and made her do it.    I have no idea why I voted for C-Team...Don't worry about it, it's one of those things that just had to happen.   But it's true! Please believe me! Phi looks rather thoughtful here.   Sigma's reaction shot is the same, but Phi is still in her thoughtful pose (instead of a neutral one).  The final reaction shot is also different. Instead of a direct look at the camera, we see Diana from above, looking down at her folded hands. Phi still has her hand to her chin, too.  D-Team gets knocked out. The next thing we see... Music: Trepidation 2nd Mix   Carlos's eyes open, and the camera looks away while he stands up.  Akane and Junpei are still out of it.  Carlos runs over to Akane.  Missing Lip Animations: 48  Junpei wakes up, stands up. They don't mention it, but C-Team appears to be in the Infirmary here.      And now for the voting results. The team who received two votes...is you. C-Team.   As such, according to the rules, C-Team will be executed.    That bitch betrayed us! All is necessary for fate. Give it up.  There's no way I'm dying here!  Please! Junpei just grunts and strains against the collar without bothering to say anything.  May you rest in peace. Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.Cease to think that the decrees of the gods can be changed by prayers. Or something like that. We'll probably find out exactly what it means at the end.  The collar starts flashing and beeping. NOOOOOOO! White flash, explosion, many, many, splashes.  Farewell, C-Team.  Another fragment complete.  Another icon lit up. Anything else?  Well, that looks new. Looks like the Quantum Computer Dome. I'll add it to the poll next time, but right now we're going to jump right into Control! Extras:  Another file for the Latin phrase. I was close....ok not really.
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Jul 9, 2020 03:54
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Part 62: Monty Hall Time for part two of our two-part special. You can probably tell why people wanted to go right here from the title.  One decision, two choices.   Music: Riddle and Puzzle 2nd Mix    So, this is Control. The air, water, and electricity for the shelter are all managed here. This is probably where transmissions to the outside world happen. But... It's disconnected.       Well, I guess not uniformly. Nipple sizes differ.What a strange size reference to use, Junpei.   A carbon dioxide extinguisher. You're definitely a firefighter. Occupational hazard. Whenever I go somewhere new, I end up checking the extinguishers first thing. I see...    You dive into danger without thinking twice about your own safety.  I wonder how much of Junpei's attitude comes from Akane gushing over Carlos.   Well, Carlos was just doing what he was trained to do... Isn't that right? Yeah. It's like you said. Akane sighs in disgust.  I'm sorry, Carlos.     You just sound even more childish to me...Can we go back to D-Team instead? I forgot how annoying these two could get.  Ah! It's January 1st! Worst way to start the year off...  Missing Lip Animations: 49    Don't forget what Zero said. "Very few of you will find yourselves able to welcome a new 2029."Junpei does his best Zero impression here.     Music: Quondam Monitors (Monty Hall) (Monitor 2nd Mix)   As usual, I'm going to start with the chair. It's just a normal chair. No time to rest now. Let's keep looking.Someday the chair will be important!   I can definitely tell you're a firefighter. You're not missing a thing. Really? I'm getting a crick in my neck just trying to look at the ceiling. Lots of screens on this machine, and some of them are on already, so let's take a look.  That looks a lot like the crane from Manufacturing. We never did do anything with that, did we? This large monitor here is showing some kind of crane. Where is that room... Oh, I think these buttons can move the crane. It's like those crane games... Okay then, let's give it a go. Are you good at these, Junpei? Not really. Usually my wallet gives up first. It's not exactly something to be proud of... Each arrow moves the crane in a particular direction, and makes a captioned sound while doing so. Down = "Znnnuurr", Left = "Whirrrrrr", Up = "Guurrrrrr", Right = "Vrrrreeee". And activating the claw is "Ding dong", but otherwise doesn't do anything yet. We probably have to move the claw to a particular location, first. drat... I don't think this is working. Moving it around randomly won't work. Right below we have some blank monitors. Four small monitors are at the bottom left. But they aren't showing anything. I really can't believe all these security cameras are simply down... More monitors on the upper left... The three small monitors at the top left are blank. ...Maybe they'll show the faces of those who die in here. Don't say things like that, Junpei! It's bad luck. Nearby is an image of a door with some letters. What's that on the monitor? The letters S and W...on a door? The S is red and the W is pink. Is it saying we need to spell those letters out with our bodies? I doubt it's going to be like Sports Day back in Japan, Junpei.Not sure what room that door is from, but I'm sure we'll be back here later.  Another monitor displaying a weird image further to the right. Is this some kind of shutter? Looks like it. There are some lines on it. You can use the slider over here to zoom in and out. Zooming in doesn't do anything, but zooming out gives us a more complete picture. Not sure what to do with this one yet, either.  The position of these things seemed important so I traced them onto the memo pad.  More blank monitors above the image of the shutter. The top right monitors aren't showing anything... They're totally black. How do we turn them on? Watch as a self-destruct sequence starts if we just start pushing everything. Ha ha. I can't say that's not entirely impossible.Yeah, none of these buttons actually do anything.  Right above them is a monitor showing an image that appears to be from the Biolab. Are those...cylinders on the monitor? That's my guess. But I don't recognize them. Maybe they're from one of the other wards. One last set of monitors in the middle. The four monitors here are turned off. They can only be seen by those of pure heart. What, really? I'm kidding. Too gullible, man. Next to the console with all the monitors is some kind of switchboard for power. Painful shock? The yellow mark over in the corner. Oh, I see it. That sign indicates high voltage. You always were scared of static shocks during winter, weren't you, Akane? I also make sure to not pull plugs out with wet hands. A shock from that terrifies me. Ha ha. You're probably afraid of thunder too, aren't you? Not sure what to do here yet, let's keep looking. Nothing's happening... Is there a right way to do this? What we're really here for is this card. What's this card? Some of the boxes have numbers written in them. Gotta be some kind of hint. Let's take it with us. Looks an awful lot like a certain console we were just looking at.  Some weird colored pedastals around the room.  It seems so. But what does it mean... Oh hey, we can turn it. Let's fiddle with it.Looks like we found what the colored letters on the door in the monitor go with. The monitor had a red "S" and a pink "W", but I didn't see a green one.  The intercom here can be messed with.  What? Let's do it! It's a card with boxes and numbers. It was hidden, so it's probably useful. Let's take it just in case. More numbers in boxes.  Page two of the memo pad is now dedicated to this numbers-in-boxes puzzle.  Anything else in here? There's nothing left behind the speaker. A monster might bite your hand if you stuck it in far enough. What are you even saying, Junpei. As if that would happen... Your voice is wobbly and you're shaking like a leaf, Akane... The red pedestal is the same as the green one, with no new dialogue. I set it to "S" and move on.  That's an awfully big plug, there.  I wonder what could be in here. Is there any way to open it? I'm not sure. Let's look around. Well, let's see. Maybe holding it up to your mouth will shoot cola out? The hell it will. ...Kids would flip if that really did happen though. Well the plug leads to this machine, what does it do? What is this machine for? No clue. Looks like it's connected to the one on the right, too. I see a loose cable sticking out. I'm not sure what it's for. Nothing on that machine, how about this one? What's this huge machine for? I've never seen it before. I have no idea how to use it either. Then we probably shouldn't touch it. Who knows what could happen.Yeah both of these machines are just decorative. Moving on...  We couldn't force it open, so I'm guessing it's impossible to break it down too. Let's try to find a way out. This poster looks familiar.  Okay then, let's make like we're flipping up a girl's skirt! Oh, sunglasses! There are sunglasses behind this! Ha, so there IS treasure from flipping things up!Junpei you're going to get yourself slapped again.  These are vital when it's summer and the sun is bright. Not so much in the winter, like now. I've always liked them since I was a kid. Doesn't it seem like they make you look cool? Yeah, just like in that movie with The One fighting against the computer AI. Classic. I have to say I'm surprised you know that old movie. It's one of my favorites.Is The Matrix still cool? I kind of thought most people drifted away from it after the third movie.  Notice that there's a voltage sign in the top right as well. It's not as if the poster has electricity running through it, so why is it there?The poster obviously has something to do with the power switchboard across the room, but what?  Below the poster are some lockers. There's a total of ten lockers. We tried them all, but none open. I want to know what's inside. But no point to wishing since they're locked. More machines further to the right. What is this machine? No idea. I've never seen it before... Why don't we try pushing some buttons. No dice. Is this thing broken?Yeah that one's also just decorative. There are two more pedestals just below, though.  I think this one's blue and the next one is pink, but I can't quite tell. I set them both to "W" just to be safe, but nothing happened.  Another machine, with another locker. This locker is locked. We can't open it. It just deepens the mystery. Is there any trick to opening it up?Probably, but we don't know it yet.  There's that firefighter side coming out. There are a bunch of large buttons down here. Twelve in all.Do firefighters deal with a lot of radiation, too?  Then they're all just on/off switches. If only Junpei's personality changed as easily. What, the me before and the me now? Not likely. The amount of things I know now that I didn't then... It's too big a difference. Junpei... Anyway, this puzzle seems to correspond to another one of the monitor images, but the cylinders were all off in that one so we don't know how to light them up yet.  It must be for measuring radiation levels. But the needle isn't moving. Maybe we have to do something on this machine first.Not sure if there was a puzzle cut here or what, but the light switches are the only thing we deal with on this machine.  One last machine in this room. First, the compartment at the bottom.  If it's locked, then there's probably a way to unlock it. But how are we going to do that...Okay, what else do we have here?  But it's blank. Maybe it'll show instructions for this machine if we push a button somewhere.These monitors never do anything, either.  Nope, nothing happens when you push them. Maybe we need to push something somewhere else?Neither does the input device on the side.  These buttons don't do anything, either. Same dialogue and everything. While we're here, though, does this machine look familiar at all to you?  Reminds me of closing a gas valve. I can just picture Junpei forgetting to close it, and panicking once the room smells of gas. You, on the other hand, would probably never make a mistake like that. Reminds me of one of those monitor images. Let me check my notes.  Kind of lines up. Let's see if I can rotate all these knobs to match the picture.  Not shown: Me going back and forth between the puzzle and the memo pad a half-dozen times. I miss the extra screen from the 3DS sometimes.    Ooh, lasers. So the monitor WAS the hint for this after all. Bottom locker's open. Let's see what's in it. A small battery... Maybe it attaches to something? And this is... A card with some numbers on it... It also looks like an earpiece. It must attach to a pair of glasses. Maybe we can use it somewhere.Good thing there's a hint on examining these parts, because the name is totally useless.  Just combine them with the sunglasses... What? The sunglasses are displaying something on the lenses. Then attaching the battery turned them on? Must not be normal sunglasses. Yeah. Looks like there are three modes: A, B, and C. We should pick one. Might as well check them out in order. Okay, let's go to A mode. Lines connecting five boxes on each side, with another high-voltage symbol. Looks important, better write it down.  Eh, good enough. I forgot what labels went onto each side, but we can figure that out later. What was that? A bunch of scribbled lines? No wait... I think there was a mark in the top right corner.Let's check out B mode on the sunglasses next.     Four images from the Healing Room, with different projections set. Come to think of it, it's pretty convenient that we're doing Control so close to the end, so we can understand all the references to the other puzzle rooms. Huh? It's just showing numbers changing on a wall... I'm not sure what that means. C mode is just a password prompt. Can't do anything with this one yet, either.  There's also a card in the locker, which I add to my second page notes.  Not sure why the monitors and input devices are here but nothing ever happens with them.  Hey, didn't we just see that mark somewhere? Let's add some labels to my crude drawing from the poster. You might be wondering why that would be necessary.  Well, it's because the order of the labels on the actual switchboard is different. If you tried to recreate the picture from the sunglasses directly here, it wouldn't work. Instead, you have to translate using the poster, and then connect the same pairs from the poster on the switchboard. From my crude drawing above, we have 4-V, 1-II, 2-III, 5-I, and 3-IV.  I would show you the whole solution, but that involved me going back and forth to the memo screen several times again. Here's the end state, though. Huh. I think that did it? So the poster and the sunglasses were the hints for this after all.Okay let's take another look at the monitor then.  SE, N, E, and SW. I wonder why they're four different colors.I hate all the color-based puzzles in this game. The dialogue didn't tell me what color was what so I looked it up, even though I'm pretty sure I could tell. I totally missed that the pink now said "SW" instead of "W" though, because it's invisible to me in the picture and I missed it in the dialogue. Anyway, I went looking for another hint by clicking again: SE, N, E, SW... What do these mean? Southeast... North... Maybe they're directions? Oh! Then E is east and SW is southwest!Again, I was so disappointed that they didn't tell me the colors that I missed that they explicitly told me that pink was now "SW" instead of "W".  Anyway, here's the right setting for each pedestal:    Between not being confident in the color of the blue/pink pedestals and not realizing that the pink direction changed from "W" to "SW", it took several minutes for me to get this one right.  Our reward is a new pedestal. Huh? A black stand came out of the floor? Does that mean we got the directions right? The light going off, means some of the cylinders are now glowing in the dark?  You're right. And some of those cylinders lit up, too. These pretty obviously correspond to the radiation buttons across the room. I'll just take a quick note...  Yeah, you're right... But where?The hint gets more explicit on the second click: Hey, doesn't this layout look a lot like what's on the bottom right monitor? Ah, yes! The cylinders! There are twelve of them too! If they're connected, then we have to push the buttons that match the lit cylinders. Just click to turn each button off or on.  So the hint really was the lit cylinders. I'm more curious about the locker. Why don't we take a look.Fair enough. Let's see what's in this locker. Some kind of ear speaker...and this. A card with four numbers on it... It looks like the type that goes over your ear. Maybe it's supposed to attach to a pair of glasses. Combine with the sunglasses, and we now have audio! Wait, what's going on? It's video and sound... Did the sunglasses become a head-mounted display? Oh, oh! What's it like, Carlos?! Hold on a sec... I see three modes: A, B, and C.Yeah, same three modes as before. Will having audio help one of them?  A mode has no change, and C mode still wants a password. So let's see if we can hear anything in B mode.  Now each image comes with a sound, which thankfully is captioned.    I heard different sounds... And the number on the wall changed as each sound happened. Oh right, we also got the last of these cards.  Not the neatest handwriting, but it'll be okay.  I had to go back and write down what sounds each button made, but we've got the solution. Here it is at double speed:   So sound was the key to it. Impressive.Oh, the monitors have letters, and the cards have numbers. Guess we have to line them all up.  Top to bottom: B, E, and R. From left to right they read T, Y, and E. I wonder what this means? From top to bottom they read B, D, T, and I. From left to right is S, E, F, and E. Now we know which number goes with which letter. But what does it mean? Well, we have the numbers 1-14 once each, so let's try arranging each letter in order of its corresponding number.  BETESTEDBYFIRE. Sounds ominous, but for now I think we had a password prompt that could use this phrase.  So we pull up C mode in the sunglasses again.  As we thought, the 14 letters were the password. Oh, the video started playing. Looks like Zero? What's he doing?  Oh, he's messing with the pedestals.      I wrote these down as they showed up in the video file.  Something comes out of the floor.  Looks like that's where the giant plug goes?  He's...turning the stands in certain directions. And then... He plugged the cable into the machine that came out of the floor. So...Carlos tells us exactly what to do. I'll spare you the screenshots of me turning each pedestal to match what was in the video. When we get the last one in place...  So turning the stands according to the instructions on the video brings that out. I hope it was worth the hard work.Nothing left to do but plug in the cable.  Yeah, let's do it.  Ummm...  We found...fire?  No music here, just the roaring fire.  Hissing as the carbon dioxide extinguisher activates.  Bye-bye, fire. Well, that was anticlimactic.  Oh! The fire's out!   Guess that extinguisher up there helped, huh.Music: Consternation 2nd Mix Yeah, I think so.  Missing Lip Animations: 50  It doesn't look like it's stopping... At this rate we'll... Junpei starts gasping.  So does Akane.  The percentage of carbon dioxide in the air is roughly 0.04.    You lose consciousness shortly after it hits 7%, and after that... Welcome back, computer lady. Last time we saw one of these was the Rec Room I think? That bodes well.   [Computer Lady:] Within one of them...there is an oxygen mask.    A drumbeat for each reaction shot.        The probability is 1 in 10...Well, at least it's better than 1 in 216? No hints. We'll have to go with our gut...  Heartbeats.  Music: Moral Dilemma (Annihilation 3rd Mix)  I could just leave it here, and ask you all to pick randomly between ten equal options, but where would be the fun in that. I asked my three-year-old what his favorite number was, and he said "two", so we'll just go with that. If you got the fragment title reference, you probably are already expecting something more to this one...  Anyway, pick any locker you like, then hit "OK".  Music: Trepidation 2nd Mix    [Computer Lady:] I know...which locker contains the oxygen mask... Somehow the computer lady manages to sound sinister during this speech.      Eight lockers are opened. That's a pretty nice dynamic animation, actually. The game doesn't know which locker we'd pick, or which random other one is going to stay closed. Unless they animated it 90 times and just picked the one to match the current situation. Maybe that's where all the lip animation budget went.   Thus, the fragment title.    Thanks, computer lady. Looks like we get one last opportunity to change our decision.   There's no way we'll last twenty min-- Junpei starts cackling. I don't think it's that kind of gas, Junpei. Wh-What's wrong, Junpei?  Our chances went from 1 in 10 to 50:50?! That's not it, Junpei...! It's actually... And Akane's down before she can tell us the solution again. Feels a lot like the Infirmary.  Akane!   drat, this isn't good...  Which is it... Which one will it be in... Heartbeats again.  Music: Moral Dilemma (Annihilation 3rd Mix)  Okay, now we've reached the real decision. Our two options here are best phrased as follows: Stick with our original decision, or switch to the other locker? Choose a locker.
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Jul 9, 2020 03:54
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Let's keep our original choice, because Carlos is a dumbass who wouldn't know the monty hall problem. 
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Jul 9, 2020 04:12
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I'd just like to point out that there is still a one in ten probability that the first door we picked was correct. That got a bit awkward when I tried to get the ending for not getting it correct, because I didn't switch, yet still got the "survival" answer. More importantly: ...! posted:It's kind of like the Monty Hall problem: ...! was the first person to bring up the Monty Hall problem. Did they know that this problem showed up in the game, and brought it up to make us pick this section? Or did they access the morphogenetic field and that made them bring it up? There's only one way to find out. There are three doors...
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Jul 9, 2020 04:35
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Everyone talking about the Monty Hall problem made me believe I'd missed the update where we actually did the Monty Hall problem. But I guess we wound up talking about it in advance! Also, Carlos is surprised Junpei knows about the Matrix? It's kind of a well known movie, my dude. You couldn't get away from the slow-motion parodies for the longest time!
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Jul 9, 2020 05:58
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| # ? May 7, 2024 19:18 |
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Who call is "cola"?
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Jul 9, 2020 06:01
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