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none of those other things have a small chance of permanently loving over your character despite surviving the encounter/killing the threat but you know this, and are just being disingenuous for fun, so im not sure why i'm bothering
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Jul 15, 2020 01:08
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someone awful. posted:none of those other things have a small chance of permanently loving over your character despite surviving the encounter/killing the threat They do, however, have a chance of "permanently loving over" your character via permanent death I don't know where you discern disingenuousness from me, I've been active assisting development in this game since .03. I don't like malmutate, flaying, torment, or hellfire, but I honestly don't think any of them should be removed or changed. All four have ended characters for me. Part of roguelike life in crawl. I won't apologize for these views. Delver chat really needs to pick up. Troll is probably the best species to use with this background. I found a quick +6 tower shield with sInv and got mahkleb quickly. I can't tell if anyone else has won with one yet but I think I have a good chance to be one of the first. And if one of those four aforementioned dickhead abilities kills me, like they have before, so be it!
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Jul 15, 2020 01:25
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Are y’all really still arguing with the person who was getting basic facts about old versions of the game wrong (why would you even think Reavers have berserk, they’re conj/melee hybrids)
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Jul 15, 2020 01:45
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okay, not only has a delver been won already, a centaur delver has been won. Today. what the gently caress? https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/Lightli/morgue-Lightli-20200714-040905.txt
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Jul 15, 2020 02:11
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I know this guy is a disingenuous troll but he's not even trying at this point. Every single one of the conditions he listed have multiple ways for any given character to combat, withstand, or outright negate, while completely ignoring the fact that they're most commonly bitched about when they come from Hell effects which are completely RNG and no one actually likes dealing with. Compared to Malmutate which in current Trunk has exactly one way to do any of that and it's a god.
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Jul 15, 2020 02:35
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:okay, not only has a delver been won already, a centaur delver has been won. Today. what the gently caress? You might have noticed earlier if you actually bothered reading what other people post in the thread: the Orb of Zot posted:Centaurs are dead. Farewell, most overpowered species of the game.
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Jul 15, 2020 02:44
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Since I'm in gripe mode, I might as well talk about a flavor thing that has been bothering me. One thing I really liked about races in Crawl is that for a lot of them, they actually showed up as enemies. Some are basic enemies like ogres, while others would show up in the form of unique NPCs. For awhile the number of player species represented through enemies actually increased, such as with the addition of numerous spriggan enemies. Its a small thing but I liked things like this. Especially when the enemies were designed to reflect builds a player might actually use for a species. But some of those enemies have been removed, either cut entirely or through rebranding to a more mundane counterpart. I only bring this up cause removing centaurs means there's one less of those species that you could play as and see as an enemy. And I liked that for flavor. Plus it also helps you get an idea of what exactly a species is like when you see them as an enemy. I just wish more of the new species got represented as enemies.
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Jul 15, 2020 02:45
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McGavin posted:You might have noticed earlier if you actually bothered reading what other people post in the thread: This loving rules. I missed it, yes, I don't read every single post. Find forgiveness for me. Thanks.
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Jul 15, 2020 02:48
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i enjoyed the roving bands of formicids who were around for like, five seconds of crawl time. just wandering around the dungeon, chewing up the walls and spamming poison magic in their weird flower-print bathrobes. terrible enemy design, and i completely understand why they (and all wall-digging enemies) are gone, but they were fun.
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Jul 15, 2020 02:50
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someone awful. posted:i enjoyed the roving bands of formicids who were around for like, five seconds of crawl time. just wandering around the dungeon, chewing up the walls and spamming poison magic in their weird flower-print bathrobes. I actually think from a game design standpoint formicids should be an enemy that shows up in Spider. The reason for this is because Spider has an issue where you don't get anything useful out of it lootwise. Snake can actually provide you with a good chunk of loot from the naga enemies that may be helpful for your character. Adding formicid enemies that use equipment to Spider would help with that a bit, and make me less likely to go "aw man spider again" like I usually do.
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Jul 15, 2020 02:53
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someone awful. posted:i enjoyed the roving bands of formicids who were around for like, five seconds of crawl time. just wandering around the dungeon, chewing up the walls and spamming poison magic in their weird flower-print bathrobes. Bad news: certain trolls enemies still dig, and those elf elementalst...
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Jul 15, 2020 02:56
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Internet Kraken posted:I actually think from a game design standpoint formicids should be an enemy that shows up in Spider. The reason for this is because Spider has an issue where you don't get anything useful out of it lootwise. Snake can actually provide you with a good chunk of loot from the naga enemies that may be helpful for your character. Adding formicid enemies that use equipment to Spider would help with that a bit, and make me less likely to go "aw man spider again" like I usually do. Fr: alternate to spider, the ant farm. Full of ants and formicids.
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Jul 15, 2020 03:41
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Every N turns the level gets picked up and shaken by a child.
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Jul 15, 2020 03:47
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Captainsalami posted:Fr: alternate to spider, the ant farm. Full of ants and formicids. Sorry but you need to come up with a way for that to start with the letter S, otherwise its not viable as a Lair branch.
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Jul 15, 2020 03:49
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Zodack posted:As someone who really enjoys Crawl but is so bad they have only ever touched the Orb once, seeing this kind of discussion coming from both sides - even though it is heated - is incredibly interesting and helps solidify some nebulous thoughts I've had about the game floating around. Hey pro tip from this post: one of the biggest problems with the devs is ignoring people like you and the input you would have on the game, and feeling like you have no authority to speak on those changes is part of the problem (That isn't your fault, mind, but rather the culture built up around providing feedback and those that developers listen to people.) New or less-skilled player feedback is in fact vastly more important than that of people who have played the game for decades. Statistically, more people playing a game at any time are new or casually doing so. Crawl used to be one of the most popular roguelikes around due to relative player friendliness and not as hard a focus on being crushingly difficult as most others. I actively turn people away from Crawl when asking about what roguelikes to play due to how incredibly unfriendly and unlikely to succeed people are at it now, and I have not met someone new getting into it for like five years when I had frequently done so before that. It's the posterboy for games that refuse to accept the feedback of people who don't want to play in hyper-specific ways, like the release-frequency tournaments. There was a period in Slay the Spire's development cycle that I was terrified it would go down Crawl's path because the primary feedback that was being sent back was people who cared about playing on the highest Ascension levels, because casual players are less likely to provide feedback at all. But the moment they started making those changes, they got lots of pushback, and for good reason - it was making the primary playerbase's experience (almost exclusively people playing one ascension 0 or 1,) worse. Crawl went the opposite route and has fostered that playerbase of dedicated players who want it to be more and more challenging and streamlined and simple, and that's tragic to me. It's impossible to recommend anymore. I wouldn't want to play the game without having like 8 years of experience going as far back as 0.7, like my own. It just wouldn't be fun. Casual feedback is something that developers have to seek out, rather than receiving passively, and they never bothered.
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Jul 15, 2020 03:57
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Is gooncrawl borked on CKO for anyone else? When I try I just see a bit of glitchy interface and then it crashes. Now that I've done my goal of beating vanilla offline I wanted to try playing both gooncrawl and online, but I can't get it to start.
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Jul 15, 2020 03:58
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I'd actually be curious as to what the winrate of modern Crawl is compared to older versions, cause when I played 0.23 it felt pretty loving hard to me and this is coming from someone that has beaten the game over 100 times. I can't imagine what its like trying to learn the game now.
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Jul 15, 2020 04:06
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Pigbuster posted:Is gooncrawl borked on CKO for anyone else? When I try I just see a bit of glitchy interface and then it crashes. Now that I've done my goal of beating vanilla offline I wanted to try playing both gooncrawl and online, but I can't get it to start. if you had an old save on there from ages ago or something, it probably got corrupted, since gooncrawl updates don't ask you to update to the latest patch or anything, they just kind of... try to run your old outdated save on a bunch of updates that make it explode. you'll have to send an email or something to the cko admin (or yell at them on IRC) to get them to wipe your gooncrawl save.
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Jul 15, 2020 04:17
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I've won around 100 times, done greaterplayer, mostly between .11-.16 or so, and yeah the game does feel significantly harder than it used to be. but i've been chalking that up to not being hyperfamiliar with everything that's changed in the last several years, and just not having any patience.
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Jul 15, 2020 04:44
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Internet Kraken posted:I'd actually be curious as to what the winrate of modern Crawl is compared to older versions, cause when I played 0.23 it felt pretty loving hard to me and this is coming from someone that has beaten the game over 100 times. I can't imagine what its like trying to learn the game now. My experience is that I could flex a prettry strong winrate (30% - 50% or so?) on casters in the heyday of 0.10 - 0.15ish. Modern patches have left me not really touching casters as I do think they are substantially more difficult to win with. If I just want to collect a 'W', I'd just play a melee dude now, and I do think my winrate is probably sub 30% even if I'm playing to streak. I do think the game has gotten overall slightly more difficult, and I think casters have gotten substantially more difficult. Hard to know though - I'm not as strong of a player as I was in my peak and a lower winrate might just be a manifestation of that.
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Jul 15, 2020 04:56
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Does anyone have a link to the offline Goon fork of the game? The links to the May 2020 version in the OP and second post are broken, and they're not on the previous builds page AFAICT.
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Jul 15, 2020 05:48
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Several small buffs to various branches have added to the difficulty in recent years. Despite this, I wouldn't say the devs only cater to the hardcore crowd. There have been a lot of changes that aim to make the game more approachable and learnable.
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Jul 15, 2020 12:08
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Sundae posted:Does anyone have a link to the offline Goon fork of the game? The links to the May 2020 version in the OP and second post are broken, and they're not on the previous builds page AFAICT. Linux build (May 11, 2020): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HwUSHBoEuQk26kzz3JEkC2geUDe7RSuE/view?usp=sharing Windows build (May 11, 2020): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Wze3yNQoF6KBeGDQ9Ew21M_crc7vd-f7/view?usp=sharing I copied the links wrong when I edited them in, sorry.
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Jul 15, 2020 12:15
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Internet Kraken posted:Sorry but you need to come up with a way for that to start with the letter S, otherwise its not viable as a Lair branch. Sant pit
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Jul 15, 2020 12:53
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weirdly chilly pussy posted:Several small buffs to various branches have added to the difficulty in recent years. Despite this, I wouldn't say the devs only cater to the hardcore crowd. There have been a lot of changes that aim to make the game more approachable and learnable. Also the game has been shortened significantly (shorter branches, shorter dungeon, loss of Hive) and iirc while the xp deficit was largely made up by the introduction of Depths, early/midgame was always the deadliest part of the game outside of extended and now there are fewer sources of xp at that point.
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Jul 15, 2020 13:34
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mdct posted:Hey pro tip from this post: one of the biggest problems with the devs is ignoring people like you and the input you would have on the game, and feeling like you have no authority to speak on those changes is part of the problem (That isn't your fault, mind, but rather the culture built up around providing feedback and those that developers listen to people.) This is the post the devs need to read
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Jul 15, 2020 14:48
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anyone know how to get ahold of whoever is behind bcrawl? i've been trying it out and it's pretty fun, but their archaeologist background seems to be not functioning correctly. you just start with the dusty tome and not the locked crate, and the dusty tome never reveals itself to be anything, either.
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Jul 15, 2020 15:00
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It's insane to me how someone would say that 0.25 would be harder to learn or less fun for a total newb than say, 0.7 or even 0.13. What exactly is it that makes the current game "impossible to recommend" because I'm not seeing it?
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Jul 15, 2020 15:09
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weirdly chilly pussy posted:What exactly is it that makes the current game "impossible to recommend"? The devs, mostly.
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Jul 15, 2020 15:30
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McGavin posted:The devs, mostly. Thankfully the devs aren't implemented as an enemy in the game, so all is well.
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Jul 15, 2020 16:25
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someone awful. posted:anyone know how to get ahold of whoever is behind bcrawl? i've been trying it out and it's pretty fun, but their archaeologist background seems to be not functioning correctly. you just start with the dusty tome and not the locked crate, and the dusty tome never reveals itself to be anything, either. Username is bhauth, here's the GitHub to leave an issue if you can't find them on Discord somewhere and don't want to log into Tavern: https://github.com/b-crawl/bcrawl
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Jul 15, 2020 16:32
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Man this thread was exciting for a little bit! All I can do is reiterate my mantra of Thank God for Gooncrawl, Thank God for Floodkiller.
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Jul 15, 2020 17:20
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weirdly chilly pussy posted:It's insane to me how someone would say that 0.25 would be harder to learn or less fun for a total newb than say, 0.7 or even 0.13. What exactly is it that makes the current game "impossible to recommend" because I'm not seeing it? There are a few reasons why this might be. 1. Casting is basically inaccessible to new players, for several reasons. They include the lack of beginning casting background, a bunch of new monsters added that can shred casters mercilessly, the lack of clear spell goals with the deletion of the generalists spells. All this and more means casting is very hard to learn, and very unrewarding as a player until you've acquired a pretty substantial knowledge about the game. I've traditionally recommended Crawl to players, but with the most recent deletion of bolts and stuff, I no longer do so since casting is such a nonstarter. 2. The game is built exclusively for experienced players. This has been at least partially true since day one, but more and more this is the case. Esoteric and orphaned mechanics litter the game and make it hard to figure out what's important and what's not (Traps, Stats, Weapon Delay, etc.). Some of these are worth their friction for what they give back in depth e.g. weapon delay, but some like Traps make no sense even after you explain it to players. 3. The game is not rewarding to experience. Older versions of Crawl had this promise of dumping really cool items and giving you some truly busted poo poo that was somewhat intuitive to put together. Those things might be effects like Control Teleport, or a Wand of Healing / Haste, or even just getting a book with Bolt of Fire pre-lair as a FE. The list of these things goes on, but the point here is that modern Crawl doesn't want you to be able to color outside the lines and has trimmed so much of that stuff away in the name of targeting it's high end players that it forgot that that is a big part of hooking new players into this world - giving them access to crazy stuff. cTele probably shouldn't exist, sure, but it's important to understand the role of those kinds of effects and what they mean for someone other that they guy going for a sub 30-minute win. Crawl also still has some of these kinds of moments, but they are not designed and the relative rarity of them is a disservice to new players. All of this comes back to what I spoke about previous: The adventure is dead and the game is no longer about exploration and discovery. A lot of it has been replaced with a bunch of calculated decisions that are explicitly solvable. For all it's fault's ADOM gets the idea of 'Adventure' very right, and I feel that's big part of the roguelike identity that has all but vanished from Crawl. It's a big reason why I don't recommend the game any more.
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Jul 15, 2020 19:41
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:There are a few reasons why this might be. I don't think spellcasting has ever been explicitly well explained in the game, but you may have a point that new people could end up with a "now what" moment with their spellcasting characters. Still, this has always been the case. I don't really get your second point. Traps are visible and can be examined. How do they not make sense? There's plenty of walkthroughs and strategy guides around to explain what's important and what's not. Your third point I completely disagree with. The game is still extremely rewarding and some of the loot and god mechanics are just insane. The single most insane thing (Be) is even accessible right in the background selection menu if you want. I do agree that there's no adventure in crawl for me as well, but that's just because I've played it enough. A new player will definitely have a good (or bad) time with all the branches and minibranches. Extended especially sucks in the adventure category. It's just a slog to get through.
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Jul 15, 2020 20:13
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Internet Kraken posted:I'd actually be curious as to what the winrate of modern Crawl is compared to older versions, cause when I played 0.23 it felt pretty loving hard to me and this is coming from someone that has beaten the game over 100 times. I can't imagine what its like trying to learn the game now. global online winrates by version 62/17864 games for * (cv=0.1): N=62/17864 (0.35%) 435/84396 games for * (cv=0.3): N=435/84396 (0.52%) 727/153796 games for * (cv=0.4): N=727/153796 (0.47%) 859/241185 games for * (cv=0.5): N=859/241185 (0.36%) 317/106202 games for * (cv=0.6): N=317/106202 (0.30%) 680/179656 games for * (cv=0.7): N=680/179656 (0.38%) 149/42390 games for * (cv=0.2): N=149/42390 (0.35%) 647/144721 games for * (cv=0.8): N=647/144721 (0.45%) 896/190444 games for * (cv=0.9): N=896/190444 (0.47%) 1422/246755 games for * (cv=0.10): N=1422/246755 (0.58%) 1134/217068 games for * (cv=0.11): N=1134/217068 (0.52%) 897/113491 games for * (cv=0.12): N=897/113491 (0.79%) 941/145530 games for * (cv=0.13): N=941/145530 (0.65%) 1101/149806 games for * (cv=0.14): N=1101/149806 (0.73%) 1921/225666 games for * (cv=0.15): N=1921/225666 (0.85%) 3097/277268 games for * (cv=0.16): N=3097/277268 (1.12%) 2907/328842 games for * (cv=0.17): N=2907/328842 (0.88%) 2583/306497 games for * (cv=0.18): N=2583/306497 (0.84%) 2820/354795 games for * (cv=0.19): N=2820/354795 (0.79%) 3368/370408 games for * (cv=0.20): N=3368/370408 (0.91%) 3846/435851 games for * (cv=0.21): N=3846/435851 (0.88%) 4172/334827 games for * (cv=0.22): N=4172/334827 (1.25%) 4288/454270 games for * (cv=0.23): N=4288/454270 (0.94%) 4479/350476 games for * (cv=0.24): N=4479/350476 (1.28%) 2164/101772 games for * (cv=0.25): N=2164/101772 (2.13%) This data excludes dead servers but is pretty good despite not being complete Also of note: 0.25 data is not to be taken too seriously, as wins spike during tournaments (winrate for 0.25 tournament was 3.01% and it concluded this month) and level out before the next patch. the double damage melee bug occured during 0.16, which is why you see a dramatic difference before and afterwards. 0.22 locked ghosts behind vaults. This had a HUGE impact: 20863/435851 games for * (0.21): N=20863/435851 (4.79%) 1913/334827 games for * (0.22): N=1913/334827 (0.57%) Bot commands used to pull this data: !lg * cv=0.1 / won change value of cv= for the version !lg * 0.22 / cikiller="a player ghost" change value of cikiller= to see the death rate by any monster parthenocarpy fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jul 15, 2020 |
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Jul 15, 2020 20:24
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Interesting numbers, thanks! Do those not count trunk games? It seems like a lot of players play exclusively on trunk. It would be interesting to have some way to figure out how difficult newer players are finding it. Because if fewer new players come to the game for whatever reason then you'd expect to see overall winrates go up.
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Jul 15, 2020 20:32
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7/15/20 trunk change watch. I'm quoting what I think are the most interesting changes - just click the link to read any description further Remove Sticks to Snakes (4 days ago, 20 files, 10+ 178-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/75647d05812d Charm dispersal 🔕: Spell removals (4 days ago, 34 files, 29+ 498-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2afbd45fc691 Charm dispersal 🔕: Remove the Charms school, skill, and Skalds (3 days ago, 108 files, 91+ 375-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0d1730ef3969 Charming item 🔔: Scarf of Shadows (3 days ago, 11 files, 30+ 4-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/53798f2cc509 quote:Re-implement the Darkness effect as a scarf ego. This ego also currently quote:The Salamander hide has been on the "unrands to revise" list for a Charming item 🔔: Spectral ego (2 days ago, 18 files, 96+ 51-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5ca325ea5084 Start Artificers with a spectral club (2 days ago, 2 files, 3+ 3-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e385806dc8c4 quote:The spectral ego uses evocations, which keeps with the theme of an quote:This commit addresses both of those, while buffing the spell slightly to parthenocarpy fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Jul 15, 2020 |
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Jul 15, 2020 20:38
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odiv posted:Interesting numbers, thanks! This is correct - only stable version games are counted. I play trunk exclusively along with most people I associate with.
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Jul 15, 2020 20:41
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Winrate mostly seems in the same range across versions. I'd guess that would be because the devs working to unobfuscate a lot of the game has made it more accessible in spite of increased difficulty. Anyways if charms is completely gone that just cements my desire to never play the modern versions. Charms used to be my favorite spell school and I used it on so many of my favorite classes. Watching the devs just trash it over the years before finally culling it completely is pretty heart-breaking.
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Jul 15, 2020 20:55
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RIP Charms. Skald was one of my favorite backgrounds. And I never cared if Haste was one of the dreaded 'no-brainers', being able to cast it was fun.
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Jul 15, 2020 21:11
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