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The cowards will put in an ego that's boosted solely by Evocations but have not the courage to reimplement rods or Pakellas. (or let Nemelex decks spawn at random in the dungeon, because you need to draw Famine on your first pull)
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Jul 15, 2020 21:16
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:All of this comes back to what I spoke about previous: The adventure is dead and the game is no longer about exploration and discovery. A lot of it has been replaced with a bunch of calculated decisions that are explicitly solvable. For all it's fault's ADOM gets the idea of 'Adventure' very right, and I feel that's big part of the roguelike identity that has all but vanished from Crawl. It's a big reason why I don't recommend the game any more. Crawldev's had a recurring problem where they see a variety of creative solutions to certain situations as a problem because players are 'supposed' to deal with it one way. The biggest example of this is probably TRJ - ok, fine, it was silly when it couldn't regen so you could just stairdance it safely. I'l l give them that one. But what harm was done by letting players polymorph it to avoid the jelly spawns? Bear in mind doing this successfully wasn't trivial. It was an option, but not automatically the best option for every build. Another example is the devs trying to destroy the concept of killholes(adjusting elf vaults to remove diggable stone, having elementalists destroy the walls, etc), which doesn't solve the overarching 'problem' of players doing the smart thing and not just charging directly into the vault - and as the aborted attempt at solving that with the weird 'monsters go superpowered if they're searching for you and don't find you in X amount of time' test branch showed, there's no way to solve that that's not aggressively unfun. Which makes sense because people playing the game smartly isn't a problem in the first place. If you're concerned that one strategy is dominating too heavily, the solution is to add more viable strategies, not nerf the one everyone's using. Then there's the situation with Tomb where they've repeatedly nerfed or removed ways of skipping chunks of it(sometimes specifically because of tomb, sometimes as a side effect of nerfing/removing ways to shortcut levels in general). Thinking outside the box should be rewarded, not punished(especially in Tomb, where there's zero variation in what to expect and you're not getting any loot out of it until the very end anyway).
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Jul 15, 2020 22:09
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Victory Position posted:The cowards will put in an ego that's boosted solely by Evocations but have not the courage to reimplement rods or Pakellas. Pakellas was good and cool and did nothing wrong.
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Jul 15, 2020 22:16
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I still miss ctele dropping myself on top of demon lords. It wasn't smart, but it was fun.
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Jul 15, 2020 22:18
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ebering please stop making commits
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Jul 16, 2020 00:04
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That charm school removal is still in a push request, not actually part of the main branch. It may not be introduced this version or it may even end up being scrapped altogether.
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Jul 16, 2020 01:37
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As someone who has started playing this game seriously in the past couple of months (I've played it a few times in the past couple of years but had never made it past the first six or seven floors of the dungeon), I will say that I have found it very enjoyable and rewarding to learn the game well enough to get a three rune victory. I don't know if this counts as a true "newbie" perspective, since I have known about the game for a while, but it is still very fun to learn imo. It still feels very new and exciting, and since there's still so much I don't know, I can't say I mind the removals and streamlining of the game. It's still a difficult and complicated game. That being said, I've already been surprised at how obvious the dev team's insular, circlejerk nature is. Both here and on reddit it seems like basically just an accepted fact that they don't listen to feedback, which is pretty lame. Finally, I won a game as a centaur last week, and I will say that I feel kind of disappointed that centaurs are now getting the axe. Sure it was obvious I was going to use a bow and kite enemies, but as an unskilled player I like that it was an obvious choice. I dunno, I guess my sense is that without previous versions to really compare it to, the game is great as it is, but reading the past few pages of the thread and seeing how much some of you have fallen out of love with it has made me sad. There's gotta be a better way to streamline the game than by unilaterally cutting parts that players enjoy, even if they're not perfectly balanced.
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Jul 16, 2020 03:40
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The one version with Pakellas was a pretty fun one. I think my ghoul of Pak was one of the strongest characters I ever took into extended. Sage Grimm posted:That charm school removal is still in a push request, not actually part of the main branch. It may not be introduced this version or it may even end up being scrapped altogether. Its such a fundamentally flawed idea it shouldn't even be considered. Again, this feels like another case of a dev making a change and not actually playing the game to consider its implications. Moving charms effects to equipment might sound okay in a vacuum... if you forget that a significant chunk of species have restricted equipment. Ring of flames is quite a nice spell for a lot of characters that can cast it. Tying it to a piece of randart gear means it is now way more inaccessible. But even if that one specific piece of gear spawned, some species wouldn't be able to use it. Sorry octopodes, you don't get to use ring of flames anymore! Felids? You're poo poo out of luck. Also hope you weren't attached to darkness, cause that's now out of your reach as well! Its almost like charms as a school has a unique function of being accessible to a character regardless of their equipment options, and cutting it out removes a lot of options a large variety of characters used to enjoy. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Jul 16, 2020 |
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Jul 16, 2020 03:53
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i've been playing crawl again on and off (my last win was in 2015, in 0.17), mostly as octopodes formicids and demonspawn. decided to play a MiGl again and breezed through the game with a lajatang until I died in slime from getting malmutated. i miss rMut!!
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Jul 16, 2020 10:19
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So, turns out I missed draining not giving an XP nerf to stuff it hits. That changes early weapon choice somewhat...
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Jul 16, 2020 14:30
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Internet Kraken posted:Winrate mostly seems in the same range across versions. I'd guess that would be because the devs working to unobfuscate a lot of the game has made it more accessible in spite of increased difficulty. yeah same. looks like they implemented it in trunk? now i'm stuck in a wizlab with my main damage spell gone (spectral weapon). good times. maybe ill win this final skald rip
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Jul 16, 2020 16:14
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yeah, charms is just completely gone. ill try to transfer my enjoyment of the game to warpers I guess? but without spectral weapon i'm not sure there's a point. maybe its time to switch to gooncrawl
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Jul 16, 2020 17:14
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I just want to express that in spite of the fact that I think this thread overreacts to everything and in spite of the fact that I think the removal of charms is the proper, organic result of the removal of haste and the devs’ approach to buffs, personally I really loving hate that change. I think it’s a huge loss to the game overall, and a massive waste of potential. If I didn’t suck so much at life and coding, I’d try to contribute more to gooncrawl and bring it a little more vitality so we’d have more positive stuff to talk about. I think the environment would be a lot better in here if there were actually people working on stuff everyone felt excited about.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:15
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Charms are such a classic spell of magic that removing them seems really goofy. There were some super cool spells in there that I wish they would just put in other schools. Like spectral weapon - why cant that be a hexes/summoning spell like mana vipers? there's also no skald/crusader type start now which makes me very sad. i like my sword and sorcery hybrids.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:22
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They did move it, the entire point of the change is that they moved the really unique effects into evocations. Spectral is now an ego on wooden weapons and artificer starts with a spectral club and its available on quarterstaffs, lajatangs, and giant clubs.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:35
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My interest in has been waning for years but I've hung around, if they stick with charms removal it might be my final straw.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:38
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tweet my meat posted:They did move it, the entire point of the change is that they moved the really unique effects into evocations. Spectral is now an ego on wooden weapons and artificer starts with a spectral club and its available on quarterstaffs, lajatangs, and giant clubs. Spells are more accessible than specific pieces of equipment. Furthermore, having buffs and related spells under one school makes it easier for the player to make a character built around them. If someone wanted to mix magic and melee combat they had a clear, obvious set of spells they could use to improve their character and make that playstyle viable. You can't just move effects around and act like its somehow the same thing.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:38
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You can also have a lot more spells than you ever have inventory slots. Strictly speaking, that menu has no upper limit on how many of them you can learn. I tried.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:39
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tweet my meat posted:They did move it, the entire point of the change is that they moved the really unique effects into evocations. Spectral is now an ego on wooden weapons and artificer starts with a spectral club and its available on quarterstaffs, lajatangs, and giant clubs. Look, it's just fine. Skalds all just now have to all wield one small group of weapons in orders to get the same effect they use to be able to enjoy with any weapon. That surely opens up an immense weapon of new tactics options. Kchama fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jul 16, 2020 |
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Jul 16, 2020 18:40
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You know what was fun and effective? Spectral weapon with polearms, that's illegal now, but you can use a spectral club!
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Jul 16, 2020 18:43
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I'm not looking to get into a slapfight about what your opinions are on the issue I'm just pointing out that spectral was moved to evo.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:43
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My feelings are just that charms fill a unique niche of castable self-buffs. Even if you move all those effects to different parts of the game, you're still removing a core and incredibly common type of spellcasting for..."balance"? I don't know, it's not the same, and it completely guts my favorite background too. I'll pass.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:43
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tweet my meat posted:I'm not looking to get into a slapfight about what your opinions are on the issue I'm just pointing out that spectral was moved to evo. Okay but the person you responded to was obviously talking about keeping it as a spell so your comment was entirely pointless.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:46
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tweet my meat posted:I'm not looking to get into a slapfight about what your opinions are on the issue I'm just pointing out that spectral was moved to evo. He was asking why they didn't move it to another spell school, which while kinda dumb would still make it a spell instead of a weapon effect.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:47
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Well, I find it good to know that it still exists somewhere even in trunk because these days you can really never tell, so it was at least mildly helpful to me.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:47
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Einwand posted:You know what was fun and effective? Spectral weapon with polearms, that's illegal now, but you can use a spectral club! 2-handed randarts of all types can have the new spectral ego.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:47
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weirdly chilly pussy posted:2-handed randarts of all types can have the new spectral ego. Wow what an embarrassment of riches
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Jul 16, 2020 18:49
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The devs should just really have said that .25 was the final version and go and make a new game which is obviously what they really want to do.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:51
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weirdly chilly pussy posted:2-handed randarts of all types can have the new spectral ego. glad to hear that a reliable tactical option is now only available on a weapon you'd actually want to use long-term once every hundred games or so the trunk dev vision is just...so confusing. the game should be more luck-based, but also more player-skill-based; long-term strategy should be impossible, except for specific challenges like extended that require extremely specific counters like zin. who does this appeal to? it really feels like a regression to a type of challenge that primarily existed before people really figured out what makes rpgs actually work as games. capricious and demanding in equal measure, but without the consistency that allows you to plan, except for the things the designers inexplicably expected you to plan for from the beginning of the game without letting you know. Jazerus fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Jul 16, 2020 |
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Jul 16, 2020 18:54
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I'm sure glad that if I was playing trunk and not gooncrawl I'd find a randart spectral glaive on a D3 gnoll every game, that's very generous of them.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:54
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I just consider evo a magic school, I apologize if I upset anyone though it's obviously a touchy subject. I think hexes/summoning would have been the best way to handle it, I'll definitely miss it on polearms too. I feel like even with the evocations version of spectral's flavor justification of being based on the wood you could have squeezed in polearms with their wooden shafts, especially with lajatangs being spectral.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:58
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Well, it increases max MP if it's higher that Invo or Spellcasting, so mechanically, it's a school of magic.
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Jul 16, 2020 19:00
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Cardiovorax posted:Well, it increases max MP if it's higher that Invo or Spellcasting, so mechanically, it's a school of magic. It actually does not anymore
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Jul 16, 2020 19:03
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All the devs have to do is admit they want to make a new game and they should respect the playerbase enough to admit it to them.
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Jul 16, 2020 19:03
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Lawman 0 posted:It actually does not anymore
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Jul 16, 2020 19:08
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Jazerus posted:glad to hear that a reliable tactical option is now only available on a weapon you'd actually want to use long-term once every hundred games or so It will probably suck anyway because it means you can't have a damage enhancer ego.
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Jul 16, 2020 19:11
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weirdly chilly pussy posted:It will probably suck anyway because it means you can't have a damage enhancer ego. Yup this was the main attraction to spectral weapon. If they’re dead set on it being a ego, it should be on gloves or an amulet (tho preferably gloves bc they’re boring as poo poo atm) so it can copy your weapon’s damage brand. But really should just be hexes/summoning
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Jul 16, 2020 20:35
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I gotta tell ya, I'm really liking the way new transmuters feel. The beastly appendage buff is incredibly welcome making it a much more consistent early game option and wereblood/song of slaying compliments it very nicely. It's definitely lost its main panic button in snakes, but I think power wise it's in a good spot and wereblood is a much more fun to use spell. This is all on my preferred OgTm start though, can't speak to the other popular options that are a bit more frail. e:I'm also more of a fan of the spectral ego than I thought I'd be. It activates automatically so you don't actually have to do anything to get it going. It's basically a permasummon that disappears outside of combat. Less powerful than having it on a branded polearm, but nice in some ways the original never was. I could see a spectral weapon being a good tool to have in the kit for a lot of characters. tweet my meat fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Jul 17, 2020 |
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Jul 17, 2020 02:13
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tweet my meat posted:e:I'm also more of a fan of the spectral ego than I thought I'd be. It activates automatically so you don't actually have to do anything to get it going. It's basically a permasummon that disappears outside of combat. Less powerful than having it on a branded polearm, but nice in some ways the original never was. I could see a spectral weapon being a good tool to have in the kit for a lot of characters. Unless it lasts after unequipping the weapon, it doesn't really seem all that good. It seems like a pretty binary better/worse since there's not much reason to use it if you have to wield a lesser weapon to get its effect. If it + the spectral weapon is better than your other weapons, then you'd just equip it and wish you could be using it as a spell on a branded weapon anyways.
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Jul 17, 2020 05:04
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You know if the devs really didn't think there were enough charms spells to justify it existing as a school anymore, they could of just moved those spell effects to other schools rather than tie them to equipment your character may not even be able to use. Maybe they could mix charms spells with hexes, since buffs are thematically similar to debuffs. Make a new spell school. Call it enchantments or something. Ya know, just a random thought.
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Jul 17, 2020 05:37
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