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this conversation in a nutshell: "this movie is doing a very obvious not-terrible thing, but it did societal harm regardless because it was targeted at the absolute dumbest motherfuckers on planet earth and you can't be even remotely subtle with people like that" "YEAH WELL IT WAS TARGETED AT DUMB PEOPLE SO gently caress YOU" e: like, y'all aren't actually reading anything I post, are you?
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Jul 16, 2020 22:01
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WeedlordGoku69 posted:this conversation in a nutshell: It's fascist media, made by fascists for fascists to glorify fascism.
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Jul 16, 2020 22:17
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WeedlordGoku69 posted:this conversation in a nutshell:
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Jul 16, 2020 22:54
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We can all agree that Frank Miller is racist and 300 the comic is racist. So this all rests on the presumption that the right guy to adapt Orientalist racist source material in a mindful and delicate or nuanced or redeeming way...was Zack Snyder. I dont think he intended it, and i dont think he succeeded in it, and no him mumbling off some excuse in an interview doesnt do it for me. And please spare me some post about how KILLING BABIES IS OBVIOUSLY MEANT TO BE BAD DUHHH because i hear you and i still stand by what i'm saying here. Yes, i see that they portray the heroic superhumans fighting nonhuman monsters as sometimes brutal and alien in their values. None of that has stood in the way of thousands of years of Spartan glorification in western culture, and 300 is not a break in that tradition. Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Jul 16, 2020 |
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Jul 16, 2020 22:58
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Seriously dude, chill out, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you.
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Jul 16, 2020 23:07
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It's OK to like a movie.
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Jul 17, 2020 00:10
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Jul 17, 2020 00:16
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So, to broaden this conversation a bit away from Snyder (partly because this is 100% going to get sent to the Dome otherwise): is it even possible to make a movie about fascism and not have it be beloved by fascists, without having it just outright repeatedly say "Nazis are bad and fascism is bad" over and over? Do filmmakers have a responsibility to not comment on these things, unless the lowest common denominator will get what they're saying? Like... nazis love Robocop and Starship Troopers. Nazis love Brazil. Nazis love Full Metal Jacket. Nazis love Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade. Are those fascist movies, too, or did they just do inadvertent societal harm by way of nazis being idiot motherfuckers who are incapable of picking up on subtext (and in some cases, even incapable of picking up on explicit text)? Because even a cursory attempt to read any of those movies makes it clear that they're not depicting fascism as good, but rather a horrifying and destructive force. WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Jul 17, 2020 |
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Jul 17, 2020 01:31
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Lindsay Ellis discusses that in her Mel Brooks video. The Producers is the only movie satirizing Nazis that doesn't have imagery from it used by Nazis, like American History X does for example. And it's because Nazis are fine being villains since the imagery is still meant to be intimidating or they view it as cool, but they aren't fine being punchlines for jokes.
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Jul 17, 2020 01:37
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WeedlordGoku69 posted:So, to broaden this conversation a bit away from Snyder (partly because this is 100% going to get sent to the Dome otherwise): is it even possible to make a movie about fascism and not have it be beloved by fascists, without having it just outright repeatedly say "Nazis are bad and fascism is bad" over and over? Do filmmakers have a responsibility to not comment on these things, unless the lowest common denominator will get what they're saying? Get the conversation away from Snyder because Snyder is indefensible. And none of those other movies have the intent that 300 does, like at all.
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Jul 17, 2020 02:56
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Snyder sucks and so does this entire loving conversation. Chill the gently caress out, goddamn. Remember when this thread was about a goofy podcast? And not.....whatever the gently caress it’s devolved to.
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Jul 17, 2020 03:13
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Jul 17, 2020 03:14
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So how about billy campbell...
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Jul 17, 2020 06:04
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dorium posted:So how about billy campbell... Steve’s Billy might be my favorite impression of theirs. It’s just so mean. There is an episode towards the end of the first season when Billy is showing Kimberly around the apartment and she towers over him. Then Michael and Jane show up, and she towers over them too. Jake and Brandon are also famously short. Why did Aaron Spelling hire so many tiny actors?
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Jul 17, 2020 17:08
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I wish they had spent a couple more minutes on temple of doom at the end of the episode. I did a rewatch of the trilogy a couple months ago and turned temple off halfway through. One of those "I'll finish it another time" sort of situations where another time never seemed to happen. It was much worse than I remember. I'm curious how other people who hadn't seen it since childhood reacted to a rewatch.
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Jul 17, 2020 17:26
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I didn’t care much for it when I was young. I watched it within the last 10 years and it’s still not great. Besides the weird racism and all, most of the characters are annoying. The heart scene is pretty crazy though. They just ran out of things to do when you move past Nazis being villains.
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Jul 17, 2020 17:47
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fishing with the fam posted:I wish they had spent a couple more minutes on temple of doom at the end of the episode. I did a rewatch of the trilogy a couple months ago and turned temple off halfway through. One of those "I'll finish it another time" sort of situations where another time never seemed to happen. It was much worse than I remember. I'm curious how other people who hadn't seen it since childhood reacted to a rewatch. The opening is great, right up until they get onto the plane. Then it's pretty much poo poo up until Indy stops being brainwashed. I mentally check out until Willie says they're getting out, and Indy says "Right...all of us." And then they go and rescue the kids. Then you've got the mine cart chase, the rope bridge scene, lots of good poo poo. But that's still, what, over an hour of bad in the middle? It's not a good movie, but lots of good stuff in there. Hell, even in the bad middle, you have this amazing moment. https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WickedEmotionalGnu-mobile.mp4 thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Jul 17, 2020 |
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Jul 17, 2020 19:17
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thrawn527 posted:The opening is great, right up until they get onto the plane. Then it's pretty much poo poo up until Indy stops being brainwashed. I mentally check out until Willie says they're getting out, and Indy says "Right...all of us." And then they go and rescue the kids. Then you've got the mine cart chase, the rope bridge scene, lots of good poo poo. But that's still, what, over an hour of bad in the middle? It's not a good movie, but lots of good stuff in there. So, is it better or worse than Kingdom of the Crystal Skull?
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Jul 17, 2020 19:30
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Iron Crowned posted:So, is it better or worse than Kingdom of the Crystal Skull? Ah...hmm. Better, due to higher highs. That's a tough one though. But I don't hate Crystal Skull as much as most people. (Except for the jungle chase/waterfall scene. That garbage can die in a fire and you lose absolutely nothing of value.) But then you have to compare the jungle chase to Kate Capshaw and....drat, that's a tough one. I'm sure most people will say Crystal Skull is worse, though. I had fun with it. And let's not forgot the number one rule of movies...
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Jul 17, 2020 19:35
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thrawn527 posted:Ah...hmm. Crystal Skull is, for the most part, properly hitting the beats of 1950s pulp adventure sci-fi (nuclear bombs are easily survivable, communist foes, etc.) The problem is I don't think people really wanted that out of Indy (and also Shia LeBoeuf cosplaying as Marlon Brando  )I liked it but it's definetely the worst of the 4 films. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jul 17, 2020 |
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Jul 17, 2020 19:36
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thrawn527 posted:And let's not forgot the number one rule of movies... They all pale in comparison to Zoo ?
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Jul 17, 2020 19:58
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Hockles posted:They all pale in comparison to Zoo ? Okay, the number two rule of movies.
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Jul 17, 2020 19:59
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If not for the opening 15 minutes and the ending 25, Temple of Doom would have permanently left Spielberg in movie jail. It's terrible. It's mean-spirited, weird and racist. Kate Capshaw gives a bad performance but it all stems from a bad, uncomfortable script that doesn't really know what to do with anyone.Angry_Ed posted:Crystal Skull is, for the most part, properly hitting the beats of 1950s pulp adventure sci-fi (nuclear bombs are easily survivable, communist foes, etc.) The problem is I don't think people really wanted that out of Indy (and also Shia LeBoeuf cosplaying as Marlon Brando This is pretty much my take. I find it to be a fun, silly movie that would be perfect after a tall glass of water. It's really no more goofy than any of the other Indy movies, there's just a lot of bad CGI and Shia is giving a really odd performance. We find out aliens exist, but we also saw the Holy Grail in Last Crusade and the Actual Wrath of God at the end of Raiders. I liked it more than Temple, but I get why people wouldn't.
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Jul 17, 2020 20:00
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thrawn527 posted:Okay, the number two rule of movies. Crystal Skull does bring number two to mind!
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Jul 17, 2020 20:05
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I rewatched Temple of Doom in quarantine and I actually really enjoyed it, which is weird because I used to strongly dislike the middle of the movie; everything between the plane and the heart-rip. But this time, I don't know, something about the big garrotte fight in the palace was very fun, and the spike trap set piece underneath the palace was very visceral and cool and real-feeling. Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is weird, because if you write everything that happens in that movie down on paper it seems really cool, but in practice it's as if everything is operating at about 70% power. Everyone involved (except Cate Blanchett) was giving half-a-crap too little, and you could really, really feel the lack of physical sets.
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Jul 17, 2020 20:38
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MariusLecter posted:And none of those other movies have the intent that 300 does, like at all. ...er, Starship Troopers is doing the exact same thing, just in the context of a future sci-fi fascist society and not a historical one. They're both depicting a horrifying fascist society, with the characters and framing making increasingly strained attempts to go "this is good actually, this is why our society works" even as it becomes increasingly obvious that the society doesn't, in fact, "work" on any level. They never come out and directly say that the societies they depict are awful, they instead use imagery that makes this obvious to anyone who thinks about its implications for longer than five seconds. And Starship Troopers was even taken the same way by fascists; Nazis loving love that movie, because despite everything being blatantly awful to non-Nazis, it's kinda exactly what Nazis want, and divorced enough from the Nazis that they can openly stan it. It's almost a weirdly good comparison, actually. (I should note, to be clear, that I'm not even necessarily saying this as a defense of 300, which, as I've stated, I don't really have any particular love for; I think the argument that directors should not comment on fascism, unless they know that the lowest common denominator will understand them and that it will not be taken as a defense of fascism by anyone, is actually potentially valid. There's a lot of harm that's been done by really good movies that were attempting to fight fascism, simply because Nazis thought they looked cool in them; hell, a lot of why I mentioned Jin-Roh is because, despite it being a very blatantly antifascist movie, there's been Nazis showing up in cosplay Protect Gear at various protests simply because they just went "wow badass armor" and ignored the movie's explicit text. But... there's also a lot of really, really unquestionably good movies that become unacceptable if this argument is taken to its conclusion, as a result of that. So I feel like if it's something you're gonna get at, you should probably think it through and consistently apply it, and if you end up going "well uh those movies were good though" you should maybe think on all this a little harder, because a movie's moral/ethical responsibilities are independent from its subjective quality.) WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Jul 18, 2020 |
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Jul 17, 2020 20:45
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God, Melr0210 really is the secret joy of 2020. https://twitter.com/ericszyszka/status/1284127236149436417
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Jul 17, 2020 20:50
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is weird, because if you write everything that happens in that movie down on paper it seems really cool, but in practice it's as if everything is operating at about 70% power. Everyone involved (except Cate Blanchett) was giving half-a-crap too little, and you could really, really feel the lack of physical sets. I really do think Spielberg has lost his...I don't know, passion? for big budget action tentpoles. His efforts in that arena have just seemed so bored for a long time now. What's the last great blockbuster he's had? Ready Player One was awful, but was so much CGI that I wonder how involved he even was and how much was just second unit CGI that was just produced by him. I didn't see Warhorse or Tintin, so I don't even know if either of those fit the description or are good. War of the Worlds was...alright at the beginning when the poo poo was hitting the fan, but that was 2005 (I didn't see Munich in the same year). Before that, Minority Report in 2002? Hell, the last movie of his of any genre that I really loved was Catch Me If You Can in the same year, 2002. I just think he's lost his luster for big bombastic movies. Catch Me If You Can, while 18 years old now (wow) shows a Spielberg more interested in smaller, personal stories, and Crystal Skull, while fun, does suffer from a fatigue from that type of movie. It's why I hope the rumors are true that if they make an Indy 5, James Mangold is directing. Fresh blood is desperately needed. Barring that, just let it die.
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Jul 17, 2020 20:52
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Raiders had the Nazis get blasted and melted by God, Last Crusade had Nazis get turned to dust and crushed to death, Temple of Doom had "You betrayed Shiva!" and death by falling into a river of alligators. Crystal Skull had... eye beams from a higher dimension I guess? I think it would have been saved by a much better catharsis in the antagonist getting punished.
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Jul 17, 2020 20:58
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MariusLecter posted:Raiders had the Nazis get blasted and melted by God, Last Crusade had Nazis get turned to dust and crushed to death, Temple of Doom had "You betrayed Shiva!" and death by falling into a river of alligators. Crystal Skull would have been better if it wasn't extra loving dimensional aliens. (I was channeling my inner Steve BTW)
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Jul 17, 2020 21:20
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Iron Crowned posted:Crystal Skull would have been better if it wasn't extra loving dimensional aliens. (I was channeling my inner Steve BTW) What if instead of the nuclear test explosion being at the beginning, it's at the end and takes out the antagonists? Hooray! The atom saves the day! per 1950s pulp adventures. e; Alternately Indy fights a giant ant. MariusLecter fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Jul 17, 2020 |
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Jul 17, 2020 21:26
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MariusLecter posted:Raiders had the Nazis get blasted and melted by God, Last Crusade had Nazis get turned to dust and crushed to death, Temple of Doom had "You betrayed Shiva!" and death by falling into a river of alligators. They had the eaten to death by ants death, but it was so overly cgi'd that it was a pretty toothless death.
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Jul 17, 2020 21:38
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thrawn527 posted:I really do think Spielberg has lost his...I don't know, passion? for big budget action tentpoles. His efforts in that arena have just seemed so bored for a long time now. What's the last great blockbuster he's had? Ready Player One was awful, but was so much CGI that I wonder how involved he even was and how much was just second unit CGI that was just produced by him. I didn't see Warhorse or Tintin, so I don't even know if either of those fit the description or are good. War of the Worlds was...alright at the beginning when the poo poo was hitting the fan, but that was 2005 (I didn't see Munich in the same year). Before that, Minority Report in 2002? Hell, the last movie of his of any genre that I really loved was Catch Me If You Can in the same year, 2002. Tin-Tin is deeply visually weird and incredibly gorgeous, for a certain hosed up value of gorgeous. It's the opposite of Crystal Skull in that regard; all of the energy that isn't in the Crystal Skull cgi set pieces is in the TinTin set pieces in spades, but the script is just kind of okay. It's worth seeing just for the fact that Ligne claire art is rendered in CGI with a fidelity that's kind of upsetting. War Horse is exactly what it says on the box: It's a Stephen Spielberg movie about a horse during the war. It's a straight down the middle pitch. Between War Horse and RPO you had Lincoln, Bridge of Spies, BFG, and the Post. BFG was bad, but the other three are pretty loving good prestige-y movies. Spielberg even got Tommy Lee Jones to actually give a poo poo about a character.
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Jul 17, 2020 22:36
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Tin-Tin is deeply visually weird and incredibly gorgeous, for a certain hosed up value of gorgeous. It's the opposite of Crystal Skull in that regard; all of the energy that isn't in the Crystal Skull cgi set pieces is in the TinTin set pieces in spades, but the script is just kind of okay. It's worth seeing just for the fact that Ligne claire art is rendered in CGI with a fidelity that's kind of upsetting. Oh sure, I didn’t list things like Lincoln and The Post because they’re smaller, personal, non-tentpole action movies, which is what I was talking about. He’s still clearly good at those.
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Jul 17, 2020 22:53
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is weird, because if you write everything that happens in that movie down on paper it seems really cool, but in practice it's as if everything is operating at about 70% power. Everyone involved (except Cate Blanchett) was giving half-a-crap too little, and you could really, really feel the lack of physical sets. A swordfight on top of two jeeps during a jungle car chase should be an amazing setpiece on par with the tank fight in The Last Crusade, but it's just blah. When I rewatched it on TV one night awhile ago it was amazing how boring it all felt. No one seemed to want to make that movie.
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Jul 18, 2020 00:20
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They shouldn’t have since Harrison Ford was old as dirt when he did it and he couldn’t star in a role you need to be physical in. Shoulda just rebooted it and gave him a cameo.
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Jul 18, 2020 01:43
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:A swordfight on top of two jeeps during a jungle car chase should be an amazing setpiece on par with the tank fight in The Last Crusade, but it's just blah. When I rewatched it on TV one night awhile ago it was amazing how boring it all felt. No one seemed to want to make that movie. TBH I forgot all about this AND the ant deaths. All I really remember from that is the ants crawling around the crystal skull cause ants to weird poo poo around electromagnetism.
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Jul 18, 2020 01:49
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thrawn527 posted:I really do think Spielberg has lost his...I don't know, passion? for big budget action tentpoles. His efforts in that arena have just seemed so bored for a long time now. What's the last great blockbuster he's had? Ready Player One was awful, but was so much CGI that I wonder how involved he even was and how much was just second unit CGI that was just produced by him. I didn't see Warhorse or Tintin, so I don't even know if either of those fit the description or are good. War of the Worlds was...alright at the beginning when the poo poo was hitting the fan, but that was 2005 (I didn't see Munich in the same year). Before that, Minority Report in 2002? Hell, the last movie of his of any genre that I really loved was Catch Me If You Can in the same year, 2002. Spielberg was so involved with the CGI of RPO that he went and made The Post while it was being worked on.
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Jul 18, 2020 16:04
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Watching CRYSTAL SKULL its hard to ignore how much the action scenes gets torpedoed by Ford and ray Winstone doing the old men " ow my hip " kind of running when called upon to actually run . Cant blame them, but it is a movie that gestated in development for way too long . Also I still like TEMPLE OF DOOM, for all is obvious fault I cant think of another movie with such crazy roller coaster kind of pacing, where except for 30 minutes of weird horror comedy in the middle, most of its run time is a breathless parade of chases punch-outs and memorable action set pieces . admataY fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Jul 19, 2020 |
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Jul 19, 2020 00:29
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:
I don't understand why people found the BFG so awful. We watched it on Netflix and it seemed to be a straight up adaptation of the Roald Dahl book which is what we'd wanted. Then again I also loved Tin-Tin and Crystal Skull was my first Indy movie (saw it on a plane and thought it was okay) so maybe I've the wrong relationship with Spielberg.
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