|
Der Shovel posted:Agreed. The Minotaur was my first T10 and it's also my least played. Maybe I should try playing it as a radar Mino instead of smoke Mino even though it's suboptimal for solo randoms, but at least it might be a bit more fun. Radar Minotaur sucks because the developers gave it huge air concealment to prevent it from ambushing planes with its terrifying 120 dps long range AA that takes just 12 seconds to kill a stock shokaku plane, so you're just plane spotted all match and the destroyer probably dies or has to hide behind the battleships because of the CV anyway. Der Shovel posted:Is the Lightning's smoke really that good for damage farming? It's got such a short duration that I figure it's better to use it to disengage when poo poo hits the fan, or to finish off a DD who is in hydro range / otherwise detected. The fast cooldown and large number of uses mean you don't have to worry about where you smoke, as opposed to something like a US DD where you have to wait three minutes to get smoke back if you smoke up to shoot someone and they run out of range. You don't have as much smoke duration total as most other DDs, but that's only an issue in a long game. You can get more use out of the smoke if you start shooting in the open and wait until someone aims at you to smoke.
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 16:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 18, 2024 13:47 |
|
|
Der Shovel posted:Hmm, definitely worth trying. I guess it's time to slap on the +fire chance flags! Cheers for the tip! I used my RN DD's with the Jack Dunkirk captain so you get huge smoke clouds and fast turrets. It's pretty good.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 17:03
|
|
|
toadee posted:In what strange world of yours is Minotaur, which is a strictly better Neptune, worse than Neptune? Probably a world where my Neptune wasn’t constantly in games with new high tier rail gun cruisers with 12km radar.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 17:27
|
|
|
CitizenKain posted:Probably a world where my Neptune wasn’t constantly in games with new high tier rail gun cruisers with 12km radar. Your game comes equipped with a map. Also, high tier radar cruisers with 12km radar, except for Stalingrad, don't overmatch you, and half of them have radar that lasts for 15 whole seconds.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 17:51
|
|
|
Aramoro posted:I used my RN DD's with the Jack Dunkirk captain so you get huge smoke clouds and fast turrets. It's pretty good. Yeah my RN DD captain vapes huge clouds.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 20:36
|
|
|
Hopefully those 12km cruisers that dont overmatch you dont have any teammates that, like, overmatch you. Its the same as with CVs, that fighter planes at 6km dont kill you, its the 6 ships firing on the suddenly visible you that kill you.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 20:37
|
|
|
Yolomon Wayne posted:Hopefully those 12km cruisers that dont overmatch you dont have any teammates that, like, overmatch you. If your sudden exposure for 15 seconds gets you dead that's on you for not positioning well. Similarly if the CV gets you exposed to the entire team, you over extended. I hate CV's and radar plenty but lets be real about the situation.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 20:55
|
|
|
Yeah I mean, thats why I say "your game comes equipped with a map". Look at the map. Think to yourself "can I be suddenly spotted?" "if I AM suddenly spotted, what would happen?" "what steps can I take to make sure that if I get spotted, 6 people can't delete me?" Sometimes that means letting go of a cap, or of your smoke, or of your island position. But, guess what, you can't do anything else if you're dead, so, instead of thinking of it as losing those things you don't want to give up, think of it as gaining all those chances you'd lose by dying.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 21:49
|
|
|
Maksimus54 posted:If your sudden exposure for 15 seconds gets you dead that's on you for not positioning well. Similarly if the CV gets you exposed to the entire team, you over extended. I hate CV's and radar plenty but lets be real about the situation. against cvs that might as well happen 15 seconds into the game. But i forget were operating in an environment in which you are perfectly positioned from start, and are constantly angeld against the entire enemy team while at the same time being exactly where you need to be at any given moment.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 21:51
|
|
|
Maksimus54 posted:If your sudden exposure for 15 seconds gets you dead that's on you for not positioning well. Similarly if the CV gets you exposed to the entire team, you over extended. I hate CV's and radar plenty but lets be real about the situation. Not even 15, because for 5 of those seconds only one ship can see you.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 21:55
|
|
|
Yolomon Wayne posted:against cvs that might as well happen 15 seconds into the game. While that is true (I started a game by dev-striking a Mino 18km from me because he got spotted by a CV 30s in) it's also pretty drat rare that anyone would be prepared or that you'd not have time to dodge/get undetected.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:02
|
|
|
CV games are pretty awful in a short range ship like a Minotaur, and the CV can also kill you with no counterplay if it feels like it, but radar isn't CVs. If you die from reasonable HP in a 15 second radar, either you were broadsiding the radar cruiser (don't?) or you were way out of position to die from the 9 seconds of team spotting.Yolomon Wayne posted:against cvs that might as well happen 15 seconds into the game. If you die when you aren't perfectly positioned and angled against everything that can shoot you, you made a mistake (sometimes the mistake is queuing into a CV game). It's more useful to try to figure out what you can do differently to avoid dying in the same way again, than to go straight to the something awful world of warships thread and post about how it's impossible not to broadside the enemy ships.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 22:25
|
|
|
Yolomon Wayne posted:against cvs that might as well happen 15 seconds into the game. If you are spotted 15 seconds into the game, the only thing that can shoot is a BB at max range. Look for shells on the horizon, and cut power and turn, either when you see shells, or if you don't, do it anyway after you go dark. The only person you have to blame getting deleted from 30km in the most maneuverable cruiser in the game is yourself
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2020 23:34
|
|
|
Aigr, Azuma, or Friesland 🤔
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 06:44
|
|
|
Anyone gotten the Super Clown Yamato yet?
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 06:51
|
|
|
Yolomon Wayne posted:against cvs that might as well happen 15 seconds into the game. The average damage in a Minotaur, and that includes all the shitters who have one us 63k. Does that mean Minos are pumping out 60k damage at least in the first 14 secs of every game? Or maybe just maybe they don't all just explode as soon as they're seen and if yours does maybe you need to take a step back and think why that is.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 06:54
|
|
|
Aramoro posted:The average damage in a Minotaur, and that includes all the shitters who have one us 63k. Does that mean Minos are pumping out 60k damage at least in the first 14 secs of every game? and maybe i said "might as well" and not "happens every single game" for loving shits sake. It happened, and if a cv spots you 15 seconds in and you simply cant dodge every single shell 3 BBs lob onto on you theres little you can do. It happens, is what im saying. But yes, i get it, nobody ever gets caught by a 12kmradar through 2 islands cause theres a map and that means you can see things that havent been spotted yet or whatever. You guys must have a 150% winrate because every single thing that can happen in the game is absolutely completely avoidable, including stuff that you have literally no way of knowing about and everyones who even gets hit a single time in the entirety of the game is a loving idiot. Really, sometimes you guys are so loving far up your own asses i cant believe you are taking yourselves serious. Its like, are you even playing the game you know everything about and have basically invented? Its exactly like every football game has 70.000 trainers who know best what to do despite having never touched a ball. I read stuff like "nobody will give you broadside" and some poo poo, what are you talking about? You poo poo-talk Kuro for saying "just dodge CVs" and then later you say its your own fault for getting stealth-radared and/or shot i mean wtf?
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 10:56
|
|
|
Yolomon Wayne posted:and maybe i said "might as well" and not "happens every single game" for loving shits sake. I kinda get where you're coming from, and the Minotaur is a hard ship to play. But in terms of results it's pretty much equivalent to the Des Moines. A Known good boat. Getting stealth radar-ed is annoying, but it's not a surprise. If you're playing T10 you can look at the ship list at the start and know where that 12km radar is coming from. You see a Tallian? You know there's some radar in the post so maybe don't push in so hard, stick close to islands that you can take cover behind. It's not about system mastery where you know the stats of every ship, but you DO need to know who has radar and the ranges. Also play as if you're playing against good players, not bad ones. Then you will get better results. This tear you're on started because you got poo poo for saying never load HE in the Odin which is just terrible advice because against good players you're just not going to get many opportunities at a broadside. If you play on the basis your opponents will be bad you're going to get really mixed results. Yes it might me you get a sub optimal shot at someone with HE rather than AP while you switch, but you know that's fine. Aramoro fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Jul 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 11:06
|
|
|
Hegel Exercises posted:Aigr, Azuma, or Friesland 🤔 Depends what you like, but probably not the Azuma, it explodes when looked at harshly and pretty much has to be played as a max range HE spammer. The Friesland can be fun as it absolutely shreds other DDs, many CLs, and burns everything else to the ground. Good AA, smoke, and hydro can make it a good cap controller, but the lack of torps means you can be pushed by things you cannot burn down fast enough. Aigr could be ok if you want a German super cruiser but the Alaska seems to do most of the stuff the Aigr can do only better.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 13:40
|
|
|
Darkrenown posted:Depends what you like, but probably not the Azuma, it explodes when looked at harshly and pretty much has to be played as a max range HE spammer. The Friesland can be fun as it absolutely shreds other DDs, many CLs, and burns everything else to the ground. Good AA, smoke, and hydro can make it a good cap controller, but the lack of torps means you can be pushed by things you cannot burn down fast enough. Aigr could be ok if you want a German super cruiser but the Alaska seems to do most of the stuff the Aigr can do only better. I think it depends why you're getting a premium. I have the Azuma and I find it a pretty chill time for grinding credits. You put out a lot of damage.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 13:53
|
|
|
Darkrenown posted:Depends what you like, but probably not the Azuma, it explodes when looked at harshly and pretty much has to be played as a max range HE spammer. The Friesland can be fun as it absolutely shreds other DDs, many CLs, and burns everything else to the ground. Good AA, smoke, and hydro can make it a good cap controller, but the lack of torps means you can be pushed by things you cannot burn down fast enough. Aigr could be ok if you want a German super cruiser but the Alaska seems to do most of the stuff the Aigr can do only better. I guess it's the Friesland then. The Azuma is appealing since it's a ~*~historical ship design~*~ but I'm about a week away from getting the Thunderer which strikes me as a very similar playstyle. I have a Siegefried which I've been enjoying so I guess an Agir is redundant. Love that all my premium resources are aligning at the same time.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 14:34
|
|
|
Yolomon Wayne posted:and maybe i said "might as well" and not "happens every single game" for loving shits sake. It's not that nobody has ever gotten caught out by radar, its that when we do, we realize it was our mistake and we reflect on it and find out what we could have done better. While you can't know where every unspotted ship is, you can infer. Take a look at what ships HAVE been spotted. If there are 3 cruisers on the other side, and none of them are the radar cruiser, or if a radar cruiser is among the ones missing, assume it is on your flank. Assume it is at an island that can cover a cap. If it's Russian, assume that then that range extends a bit beyond the cap. Plan accordingly. It can be frustrating to not be able to take up a position based on something you have to assume out of safety for lack of knowledge, but it's a lot less frustrating than dying early. I'm not saying this never happens to me. I'm saying I've been on both sides here. Minotaur was my first T10 cruiser, and is my most played ship. My overall stats in it are pretty bad (53% W/R, 87k damage), because for probably a hundred games or more I didn't learn any of these lessons. I now rarely have a Minotaur game under 100k, and typically over 150k with multiple kills, and it's because I learned through a bunch of dumb trial and error, about how to really employ map awareness, and play to the best set of assumptions, not just what is in front of me and obvious. And I still make dumb mistakes sometimes. In my past 21 days Im "only" averaging 112k because one of those games I had literally 0 damage, because I was an idiot. The difference is I don't come here and whine about radar, and how Mino sucks because it has thin armor, I go "well, that was dumb, I should have considered they would be there", and move on, keeping that in mind for the future. The difference in Kuro saying "just dodge CVs" and you being able to dodge shells is because CVs launch ordnance between 0.5 and 2s of it impacting your ship. There is literally no control on your vessel that will change your course in time to do anything. The reason we don't whine about radar, but we do about CVs, is because there are so very few, limited options for counterplay against them that it really is a fault of the game design. Also your sports analogy is a pet peeve bad one. Throughout history there have been plenty of brilliant sports analysts and tacticians who have absolutely no ability to play the game, as well as brilliant players who are terrible at managing or analyzing. Fire Joe Morgan being a thing is a favorite example.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 15:16
|
|
|
I've complained about this before, but it'd be REAL nice if WG didn't sell T9 premiums to people who are up to oh let's say T3 in the tech tree. Nothing like your top tier AL Sov Souyz clone doing a 180 the second an enemy Bismarck is spotted on the horizon, hiding behind an island for the entire game and then starting a homophobic tirade when the Shokaku just repeatedly hammered him into the ground behind that island. And reported me in my Friesland for "not giving AA support". Dude survived 13 minutes and had 214 XP. I just want two teams of semi-competent people playing this team game is that too much to ask 
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 15:55
|
|
|
Yolomon Wayne posted:and maybe i said "might as well" and not "happens every single game" for loving shits sake. in this game, if you die, in like 80% of the cases or more it's because you yourself hosed up, not because the enemy outplayed you. most pubbies are exceedingly bad but they can still kill you when you gently caress up. getting good is, at least initially, mostly about not loving up as much. your mindset needs to change. it's not about what the enemy did or what your team did or how unbalanced the game is; all of those can be quite annoying, but if you want to get better and less frustrated with the game, what needs to change is you. i'd recommend reading dan luu's essay 95th percentile isn't that good for some further perspective on this. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jul 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 18:05
|
|
|
There is this attitude that can best be described as "utter joylessness and misery" that some of the good players of this game seem to adopt. Berating new players for expressing frustration, tone policing opinions on ships, doing winrate elitism before an opinion can be expressed and even then, it is countered by the opinion of a better player (so and so says [x] and they're a far better player than you). This is maybe the one game where the goon community is far worse than the pubbies. For the sake of a game that has 0 competitive play, a few hundred twitch viewers, and no reason to take both so seriously and joylessly, goons have somehow managed to like... outdo the randoms. And have this fascinating mix of absolute elitist / tryhard mentality with above average performance. It's a real treat. I'd like to take the post above, "Everything that goes wrong in a match is your fault, you piece of poo poo. And if you reach the 95%th percentile, that also won't be good enough. Maybe set your ambitions higher" as the kind of thing you can look forward to if you play this game with goons. Or if you play with pubs you can roll with 40% winrate USMC dudes and while they'll lose more matches, maybe you won't have to hear stuff like that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 18:10
|
|
|
Ham Sandwiches posted:There is this attitude that can best be described as "utter joylessness and misery" that some of the good players of this game seem to adopt. Berating new players for expressing frustration, tone policing opinions on ships, doing winrate elitism before an opinion can be expressed and even then, it is countered by the opinion of a better player (so and so says [x] and they're a far better player than you). I mean, the thread basically has two or three dudes who do nothing but post about how poo poo teams are, never ask for how to improve, post occasionally about how great they are before bitching about teams again. That these players are generally below average suggests perhaps the origin of their issues is in their own play, and they could try and learn and improve, instead of constantly bitching about bad ships and teams. But that doesn’t happen, and by this point we’ve all seen it happen over and over again by the same players. I’m one of the unabashed elitists, but I do my damnedest to provide actual advice to people trying to improve, here, in game, and on discord.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 18:13
|
|
|
all i'm saying is, it is possible to get better and it is possible to learn to play around radar such that it isn't so frustrating anymore e: btw the reason dan luu claims 95th percentile isn't that good is because he argues quite convincingly that basically anyone can get there and it doesn't even take that much effort. it's just a matter of mindset and ways of training. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Jul 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 18:13
|
|
|
Yolomon Wayne posted:A whole'lotta words. I think what most people are saying is that if you're constantly getting lit up by something you should maybe modify how you approach the game. Like a lot of your posts read like "I hosed up and something bad happened to my ship".
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 19:06
|
|
|
I got yelled at by my team for not providing AA fighter support for my DDs who idiot rushed into cap last night. I was a goddamn Hosho.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 19:10
|
|
|
Yolomon Wayne posted:But yes, i get it, nobody ever gets caught by a 12kmradar through 2 islands cause theres a map and that means you can see things that havent been spotted yet or whatever. Yolomon Wayne posted:I read stuff like "nobody will give you broadside" and some poo poo, what are you talking about? The difference is that "just dodge CVs" is actually impossible. There are things you can do to avoid getting stealth radared or cross mapped by battleships, and obviously if you complain about getting stealth radared and cross mapped by battleships someone will try to tell you what you could do differently. Ham Sandwiches posted:And have this fascinating mix of absolute elitist / tryhard mentality with above average performance. It's a real treat. loving  at trying to throw shade with "above average performance" when your own performance is publicly viewable and worse than the teammates that yolomon wayne and der shovel complain about
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 19:19
|
|
|
When I watched Greyhound, which is set on a Fletcher, I realized that my Fletcher is full of enough terrified teenage boys to fill out three or four full watches, and there's cooks, and stewards to lay out my uniform, and guys with funny helmets to fit over their radio headsets whose job is just to repeat everything piped up to the bridge from the CIC, and here I am yoloing all of them into a torp spread 3 minutes into the match. Now I am highly motivated to improve my DD performance by my imaginary empathy for these fake people.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 20:01
|
|
|
Now my immersive boat roleplay just needs a reason there's an Admiral in charge of a single destroyer
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 20:01
|
|
|
It's fine to play the game casually without much of a competitive mindset. I don't actually have anything against bad players as such, as much as they might frustrate me at times. However, I think it's important to recognize that for the vast, vast majority of people, it is in fact possible to get better to the point of performing significantly better than the average player, and if you're doing badly it's not because the world is conspiring against you, it's because you haven't put in the effort required to get better. Now, it's important to note here that there are actually a lot of very good reasons to not want do that - for one thing it might not be enjoyable to you, or you might have other demands on your time (like a family or a social life or something, idk), or it might simply not be a desirable goal to you at all. WoWS is not a particularly competitive game and a lot of people play it just to watch the pixel boats explode. And that's fine! That probably sounds condescending but I promise you it's not meant that way - there are legitimately a huge number of things that might be preferable over getting good at video games to almost anyone. I myself wonder quite often why I'm insisting on putting so much time into this game when there's so much else I could be doing instead. All I'm trying to say here is, if you're posting in this thread about how the pubbies are keeping you down, you're wrong. The pubbies (or the game itself) are not what's holding you back.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 20:02
|
|
|
TheFluff posted:Now, it's important to note here that there are actually a lot of very good reasons to not want do that - for one thing it might not be enjoyable to you, or you might have other demands on your time (like a family or a social life or something, idk), or it might simply not be a desirable goal to you at all. WoWS is not a particularly competitive game and a lot of people play it just to watch the pixel boats explode. And that's fine! Yeah, but if you play with goons, this is actually not fine. And you can see it even in this thread. If you choose to "play for fun" or "watch boats explode" then don't you dare share your opinions on ships, or maps, or gameplay, or bitch, or anything else. As a trash tier player, you are there to like, idk, soak in the wisdom from your betters and not express frustration about anything because it's ultimately your own fault for choosing to be bad. So yeah for folks actually wanting to do that style of play, it may not be super compatible with the goon crew that feels very, very, very strongly about their stats.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 20:12
|
|
|
Ham Sandwiches posted:Yeah, but if you play with goons, this is actually not fine. And you can see it even in this thread. If you choose to "play for fun" or "watch boats explode" then don't you dare share your opinions on ships, or maps, or gameplay, or bitch, or anything else. As a trash tier player, you are there to like, idk, soak in the wisdom from your betters and not express frustration about anything because it's ultimately your own fault for choosing to be bad. Yeah, you aren't the one posting every other day about how pubbies lose all the games for you or how your Minotaur just explodes. Because, posting those things is sort of a tacit implication that they bother you, and you would rather be one of those people who wins 60+ % of their games. It is, in fact, a lot of things you can do to change that, and not, in fact, the universe conspiring against you if that is your complaint.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 20:30
|
|
|
there's a difference between not caring about winning, and being the people that flex their 52% win rate super hard on their 49% teammates then post about how it's impossible to get better than 52% because everyone better than you is a no life tryhard. maybe a third category would be consistently being wrong about everything but claiming that you're actually right because everyone else is utterly joyless and miserable 
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 21:12
|
|
|
I'd forgotten what a blast the Haida is. Just knife fighting fools all day every day.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 21:30
|
|
|
umm my stats are pretty good so i'm just gonna have to say that people complain about teammates way too goddamn much, lol, play your own game and if its smart and you're good, you'll win more games than you lose. A REALLY GOOD player still only wins about 6 out of 10 games going solo, so stop expecting your teams to carry you and start doing it yourself. and if you're not interested in learning the stats of every ship, the spots you can get radared, and just want to complain about it instead, then perhaps you shouldn't cry about your teammates when they refuse to do the same. Its not their job to carry you when you make a bad positioning call and die for it. PS: that's what happens when you get RADARed and die first when you're in a minotaur Hazdoc fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Jul 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 22:04
|
|
|
i'm getting a sneaking suspicion that mentioning russian bias gets you chat banned, because i think the only thing of note i chatted about last night was how that new replacement for the khaba they're testing is going to be more russian bullshit like every other russian ship they've added to the game and i logged into a 48 hour chat ban 
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 22:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 18, 2024 13:47 |
|
|
Surely not all the Russian ships are bullshit? The cruiser are delicate and blow up almost on suggestion, the battleships are admittedly very obnoxious to fight but are also totally one-dimensional and unrewarding to play, the destroyers hardly seem like all-stars. The Smolensk is awful, yeah, and the Stalingrad can be terrifying in certain narrow circumstances. But I haven't noticed any general avalanche of Russian points in the end-game stats.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 23:00
|
|