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Pick
Jul 19, 2009
Nap Ghost

AceOfFlames posted:

At least there’s a very good reason for Lionel being pushed aside.

Right, which I knew, but it very decisively places those characters in a certain era, essentially the era that I watched the show.

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I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

Hearing about the last 15 years of The Simpsons is like seeing an actual version of the joke from those Modern Seinfeld and TNG Season 11 twitter accounts.

Last Chance
Dec 31, 2004

I totally forgot about Herman, what happened to Herman

Der Kyhe
Jun 25, 2008

Last Chance posted:

I totally forgot about Herman, what happened to Herman

The one-armed anarcho-survivalist guy was relegated to D-list side characters who are usual just hanging around in prison or crowd scenes. He has like one line per season.

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

His last big moment was running the illegal bluejeans import operation that Marge busts when she’s a cop. He was one of the rare unambiguously violent criminals on the show. Maybe the only one other than Snake and Fat Tony, who wasn’t really a regular for a long time.

hard counter
Jan 2, 2015





Ghost Leviathan posted:

I've said before, Apu would be remembered as stereotypical but a step in the right direction if the show had ended at any reasonable point.

i don't even think apu would've been remembered as stereotypical per se, but with so few south asians on primetime tv in those days it was inevitable that bullies on the schoolyard would pick on the brown kids by slinging apu jokes at them because there wasn't much else to attack them with

years down the line those kids would remember being bludgeoned with apu and reckon that it wasn't the cruelty of other kids that led to this but apu himself

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo
Indians running gas stations and convenience stores is definitely a stereotype

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011

Der Kyhe posted:

The one-armed anarcho-survivalist guy was relegated to D-list side characters who are usual just hanging around in prison or crowd scenes. He has like one line per season.

I feel like he's about to come back in a big way.

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011




rodbeard posted:

I'm just now getting around to watching Glee for the first time because I've been stuck at home for months and on top of a good chunk of the main cast dying young, it's really jarring how mean-spirited this supposed to be progressive show is. Every day person is a walking punchline, half the cast seems to only exist as an excuse for jew jokes and the gay characters are so stereotypical I was surprised to find out that the show's creater was gay.

I gave up on Glee when I realized that the whole concept of the show was "let's take cool and edgy songs and make them less cool and edgy." The whole show is basically "how do you do, fellow kids?"

hard counter
Jan 2, 2015





Edgar Allen Ho posted:

Indians running gas stations and convenience stores is definitely a stereotype

i agree that running convenience stores is a stereotype but i should have been more articulate and mentioned how people were parroting apu's accent, mannerisms and catchphrases to insult brown kids; as long as apu's played up for laughs in some way, any job, accent, catchphrase, whatever will be be a weapon for other kids so long as his caricatured idiosyncrasies are recognizable, given that apu was one of the few brown men on primetime tv back then

the same thing happened with east asians but with a wider range of insults, but in that case i feel like people are less inclined towards stuff like blaming bruce lee personally for the cruelty of white kids who made heee-ya noises at asians

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010
Pillbug

hard counter posted:


the same thing happened with east asians but with a wider range of insults, but in that case i feel like people are less inclined towards stuff like blaming bruce lee personally for the cruelty of white kids who made heee-ya noises at asians

Though the fact that Bruce Lee is actually chinese is a pretty big difference there.

Krispy Wafer
Jul 26, 2002

I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat

Grimey Drawer
I definitely said stupid Apu catch phrases to an Indian friend when the Simpsons first came out. Sorry, Neal. I was a dick.

I'm not sure the character itself is even the problem. Yes, he's stereotypical, but the Simpsons are full of stereotypes. If I remember correctly his wife was played more sympathetically. The voice acting though...that's aged like a banana. They should probably recast it and let us all feed on the outraged man-child tears that emulate from Reddit.

FreudianSlippers
Apr 12, 2010

Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!

Apu isn't even an impression of an actual Indian person but an impression of Peter Sellers in brown face doing a dodgy Indian impression from the 1968 film The Party.



Wikipedia posted:

According to a friend of the great Indian director Satyajit Ray, that film-maker was at the time intending to work with Sellers on a project. Then he watched The Party, and the chances of them working together became about as likely as PW Botha collaborating with Stephen Biko.

hard counter
Jan 2, 2015





Ugly In The Morning posted:

Though the fact that Bruce Lee is actually chinese is a pretty big difference there.

is it? i'm not sure how big a difference getting a brown person to voice apu would be given that bullies would instead use that person's authentic mannerisms to insult brown kids

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010
Pillbug

hard counter posted:

is it? i'm not sure how big a difference getting a brown person to voice apu would be given that bullies would instead use that person's authentic mannerisms to insult brown kids

I meant that as a reply to “less inclined to blame Bruce Lee personally”. Even if the effect is the same, there’s a big difference in perception between a character voiced by a white guy and written by a white guy in a cartoon for American audiences, and something where a Chinese guy made martial arts films, with a Hong Kong studio, in Chinese.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

Last Chance posted:

I totally forgot about Herman, what happened to Herman

Antifa Turkeesian posted:

His last big moment was running the illegal bluejeans import operation that Marge busts when she's a cop. He was one of the rare unambiguously violent criminals on the show. Maybe the only one other than Snake and Fat Tony, who wasn't really a regular for a long time.

Actually, TheRealJims also did a video on this. It's way weirder than just being shuffled back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F4dc4F1qQA

His last noteworthy appearances are actually in season nine (the 'Marge becomes a cop' episode was season six); he's the central character for the parody of Pulp Fiction's gimp scene in Twenty-Two Short Films About Springfield, and he sells Homer a bomb shelter in the Halloween episode. Then he disappears from even voiced lines, basically only being a crowd character... until fifteen years later in season 24, where he gets a prominent gag in a flashback and then a starring role in two consecutive episodes. They had one VERY brief bout of 'let's try to make Herman a thing again' and then dropped it.

Chances are he just fell back because he doesn't really have a role that isn't satisfied by a more recognizable and light-hearted character, like Moe or Snake. Why spend time introducing and setting up this character that just isn't as readily identifiable, when the main thing setting him apart is that he's less fun to watch than the other options?

Henchman of Santa
Aug 21, 2010
Bruce Lee is famous for dismantling negative Asian stereotypes. Enter the Dragon wasn't that much later than Breakfast at Tiffany's.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
Nap Ghost
I agree the issue with Herman is tone. You could totally come up with reasons to involve him if you wanted to. Homer doesn't even buy his gun from Herman in "The Cartridge Family". Yes, technically military antiques stores aren't "gun stores" but he's obviously the most logical go-to for that.

hard counter
Jan 2, 2015





Ugly In The Morning posted:

I meant that as a reply to “less inclined to blame Bruce Lee personally”. Even if the effect is the same, there’s a big difference in perception between a character voiced by a white guy and written by a white guy in a cartoon for American audiences, and something where a Chinese guy made martial arts films, with a Hong Kong studio, in Chinese.

you're definitely right in so far as that there should be self-criticism for our conscious, deliberate choices; i was looking at it more from the angle that there was always going to be a problem with kids being dicks given that, at the other extreme, you could have a chinese guy work with chinese writers in chinese films in completely heroic roles but still have his mannerisms become a schoolyard joke... it's just that in that instance it's more obvious that it's the kids who are at fault

not saying there isn't a good conversation about the consequences of having foreign characters voiced by white guys, who are written by white guys for predominantly white audiences tho, i just see as an important conversation to have on its own but extraneous to the issue of helping kids realize some jokes are inappropriate, by far the biggest fallout with apu was having south asian kids all grow up w/similar experiences of being relentlessly teased

Dirt Road Junglist
Oct 8, 2010

We will be cruel
And through our cruelty
They will know who we are
For once the, “no, it’s the children who are wrong” screencap could be used sincerely.

Der Kyhe
Jun 25, 2008

It could also be as simple as that since he has only one arm and no lighter tone whatsoever, Herman is much more difficult to write for. Not only do you need to think what he is doing, but also *how* one-armed character does it. They also might have problems with the animation work, because I'd guess that they do not have standard animation templates for one-armed person.

And the store Herman runs never had that feeling of being by the books legit business. More likely it was a front for all the shady poo poo he was doing from the season 1.

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

by Azathoth

Vandar posted:

Everyone is mean to everyone else on Family Guy but it still astounds how they manage to keep giving it to Meg worst of all.

That's just Seth McFarlane negging Mila Kunis.

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011




sassassin posted:

That's just Seth McFarlane negging Mila Kunis.

Even in movies that she isn't even starring in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6A4H0tNALQ

Vandar
Sep 14, 2007

Isn't That Right, Chairman?



Antifa Turkeesian posted:

Hearing about the last 15 years of The Simpsons is like seeing an actual version of the joke from those Modern Seinfeld and TNG Season 11 twitter accounts.

Would you believe it if I told you they gave superpowers to Sideshow Bob?

https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/The_Man_Who_Grew_Too_Much

Alhazred posted:

Even in movies that she isn't even starring in:

Why am I not surprised?

FreudianSlippers
Apr 12, 2010

Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!

Remember 20 years ago when The Simpsons was not only the best show on television but one of the best shows ever?

Why couldn't they just end it around season 11 +-2 seasons

Der Kyhe
Jun 25, 2008

FreudianSlippers posted:

Remember 20 years ago when The Simpsons was not only the best show on television but one of the best shows ever?

Why couldn't they just end it around season 11 +-2 seasons

Because all of the X-Files and Simpsons spin-offs bombed and Fox couldn't live off only from the Married with Children reruns.

Come on, this was explained in that one Simpsons episode.

Vandar
Sep 14, 2007

Isn't That Right, Chairman?



We never actually got a Simpsons spinoff but somehow Family Guy got one for the least likely character.

This timeline really is the worst.

Krispy Wafer
Jul 26, 2002

I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat

Grimey Drawer
And we got only one Simpsons movie, which if I'm remembering correctly was surprisingly good.

The Simpsons is somehow both the most overachieving and underachieving show ever.

Vandar
Sep 14, 2007

Isn't That Right, Chairman?



Considering it came out in 2007, the Simpsons Movie is way better than it had any right to be.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo
Spiderpig, spiderpig, does whatever a spiderpig does

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012


Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.



Wedge Regret
They also made an effort to get a lot of the writers from the earlier years back, which probably helped the movie be as solid as it was.

In retrospect, the Simpsons movie is only a few years removed from the show still being at a high point, although that’s a subjective and debated matter. I’d personally argue its peak lasted until season 9 or 10, and was still generally enjoyable and good until 13-14ish, with the movie being released just after the 18th season and quality of the episodes had clearly slipped by that point.

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

Spiderpig, spiderpig, does whatever a spiderpig does

That was the ringback tone (remember those?) I used for my mom, because that song annoyed the hell out of her.

christmas boots
Oct 15, 2012

To these sing-alongs 🎤of siren 🧜🏻‍♀️songs
To oohs😮 to ahhs😱 to 👏big👏applause👏
With all of my 😡anger I scream🤬 and shout📢
🇺🇸America🦅, I love you 🥰but you're freaking 💦me 😳out
Biscuit Hider

Krispy Wafer posted:

I definitely said stupid Apu catch phrases to an Indian friend when the Simpsons first came out. Sorry, Neal. I was a dick.

I'm not sure the character itself is even the problem. Yes, he's stereotypical, but the Simpsons are full of stereotypes. If I remember correctly his wife was played more sympathetically. The voice acting though...that's aged like a banana. They should probably recast it and let us all feed on the outraged man-child tears that emulate from Reddit.

I don't think they should recast the character that's been voiced by the same person for 30 years. They should retire the character or, even better, the show. I mean 30 years? Jesus Christ.

Dirt Road Junglist
Oct 8, 2010

We will be cruel
And through our cruelty
They will know who we are

sassassin posted:

That's just Seth McFarlane negging Mila Kunis.

Lacey Chabert dodged a bullet on that one.

Vandar
Sep 14, 2007

Isn't That Right, Chairman?



They’re either going to have recast or retire Apu, since Hank Azaria said he wasn’t doing the role anymore.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

Vandar posted:

They’re either going to have recast or retire Apu, since Hank Azaria said he wasn’t doing the role anymore.

They've outright said they'll be recasting him, although in recent years they quietly retired him anyway.

So I suspect we'll suddenly see Apu be slightly more prominent, either getting spotlight episodes or a lot of 'also he's here' stuff like Milhouse. If you're hiring an actor for only a single role, after all, you're gonna think to use them more.

Cleretic has a new favorite as of 04:22 on Aug 2, 2020

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
They had already effectively retired Apu for years until things blew up, iirc.

The Simpsons Movie could have been a lot better, but apparently suits didn't want them bringing back any characters they didn't think audiences wouldn't recognise, probably among other dumb decisions. They had a lot more cachet they could have used, I'd think, but just can't be bothered to. I imagine most of the writers are entirely checked out at this point.

Zaroff
Nov 10, 2009

Nothing in the world can stop me now!

Ghost Leviathan posted:

They had already effectively retired Apu for years until things blew up, iirc.

The Simpsons Movie could have been a lot better, but apparently suits didn't want them bringing back any characters they didn't think audiences wouldn't recognise, probably among other dumb decisions. They had a lot more cachet they could have used, I'd think, but just can't be bothered to. I imagine most of the writers are entirely checked out at this point.

Wasn't the movie supposed to have Hank Scorpio as the bad guy, but they thought he wasn't as well-known?

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.

Zaroff posted:

Wasn't the movie supposed to have Hank Scorpio as the bad guy, but they thought he wasn't as well-known?

And Rainier Wolfcastle as President, but they thought audiences would just be confused.

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Vandar
Sep 14, 2007

Isn't That Right, Chairman?



Ghost Leviathan posted:

And Rainier Wolfcastle as President, but they thought audiences would just be confused.

He was the president though?

EDIT: I am an idiot. Arnold was the actual president. Yeah let’s just use the real thing instead of his parody, I guess.

Vandar has a new favorite as of 18:23 on Aug 2, 2020

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