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Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Phlegmish posted:

I also wouldn't mind too much if the game in question has you fighting an enemy that uses rape as a weapon, and you see the aftermath of that or something - provided it's not handled in a tone-deaf way.
However, if it's your character that is nudged into raping someone, and you have to do a QTE or whatever to rape them successfully, and all of it is presented in a graphic way, I would immediately close the game.
Any entertainment product that uses rape as a game mechanic is tasteless and tone deaf by definition and I kind of resent being called a "neo-Puritan" for not spending enough time absorbing the ideas from the kind of gamer echo chambers where people would actually call for it to be normalized as acceptable instead.

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Fargin Icehole
Feb 19, 2011

Pet me.
I must be the only one who did not enjoy playing Grim Dawn. I think I'm near the end but it's boring as poo poo, and my build is awful, I want something that lets me make mincemeat out of everything.

Phlegmish
Jul 2, 2011



Cardiovorax posted:

Any entertainment product that uses rape as a game mechanic is tasteless and tone deaf by definition and I kind of resent being called a "neo-Puritan" for not spending enough time absorbing the ideas from the kind of gamer echo chambers where people would actually call for it to be normalized as acceptable instead.

I explicitly said I would not want to play a game that has rape as a game mechanic. If it's there as part of the narrative, it would depend on the context.

The 'neo-Puritan' comment also had nothing to do with rape, just people who automatically have a problem with sexual content in general.

If you're going to reply to my posts, please actually reply to them instead of making up some insane straw man.

exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."


Fargin Icehole posted:

I must be the only one who did not enjoy playing Grim Dawn. I think I'm near the end but it's boring as poo poo, and my build is awful, I want something that lets me make mincemeat out of everything.

Grim Dawn repeats the same mistake Iron Lore/Crate did with the TQ skill trees, which is encouraging the player to load up on passive stat boosts for most of the game instead of exploring the active abilities. And a lot of those abilities are one-point wonders that don't scale nearly as well as a simple stat boost would. So the actual combat can be quite dull for a long period of time.

Mordja
Apr 26, 2014

Hell Gem

exquisite tea posted:

Grim Dawn repeats the same mistake Iron Lore/Crate did with the TQ skill trees, which is encouraging the player to load up on passive stat boosts for most of the game instead of exploring the active abilities. And a lot of those abilities are one-point wonders that don't scale nearly as well as a simple stat boost would. So the actual combat can be quite dull for a long period of time.

Whenever people say this I'm like "what??" because not only do I invest waaaay more in passive skills, I'm also only playing as one class and haven't had problems killing stuff or surviving. Maybe I'll be screwed if I try to play on Ultimate, but I doubt I'm ever going to do that. I get that it's not "optimized" but you can absolutely go through the story with a bunch of actives.

Fargin Icehole
Feb 19, 2011

Pet me.
The class I picked was the one that throws molotovs all the time with a little bit of occult stuff. Grim Dawn bored the gently caress outta me, I refunded it.

I kept hearing that it was better than Diablo so I bought it again on deep sale and continued as my original character and I'm still bored

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

Phlegmish posted:

e: oh and just ignore the goons going 'lol gently caress off CHUD MRA INCEL CREEP', it's SA, they're contractually obligated to post a combination of these words every few hours.

Phlegmish posted:

insane straw man.

lol

zedprime
Jun 9, 2007

yospos
Grim Dawn is a little better about it than TQ especially with cheap respecs these days. Most build leveling guides will have you smooth over rough spots by dumping points into active and respecing when you have enough to bridge to the next 1 point wonder, usually in the 1-30 level range.

My main problem is a good build in GD just shits out damage really well in a way incongruous with spell effects. The spell effects aren't bad, but it just misses the tactile feeling of when a Diablo 3 or POE build come together and you are the motherfucking tempest.

Stux
Nov 17, 2006

Phlegmish posted:

I explicitly said I would not want to play a game that has rape as a game mechanic.

Phlegmish posted:

I also wouldn't mind too much if the game in question has you fighting an enemy that uses rape as a weapon

Fargin Icehole
Feb 19, 2011

Pet me.

I don't think thats the same thing.

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.
To be fair, I completely agree that the base gameplay of Grim Dawn is insanely boring and the classes are all kinda lovely and don't get enough good active abilities to be fun to play for a long time, some of them ever. I didn't start liking it until I went deep into mods that add more masteries and general content. I would not recommend the base game to anyone.

It has retroactively completely justified it existence in my simply by serving as the framework for the creation of Reign of Terror, though.

Fargin Icehole posted:

I don't think thats the same thing.
It certainly sounds like the same thing.

Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Aug 5, 2020

Phlegmish
Jul 2, 2011




Yes, as in, the enemy is understood to have committed mass rape and that is one of the reasons why they're so bad and we have to fight them. Not that they use rape as part of the actual gameplay. How would that even work?


Yes completely insane, surely no goon would ever post anything remotely like that

The 7th Guest posted:

this isn't a philosophical question so much as a tired question from an MRA reddit

Hwurmp posted:

the philosophical answer: lol gently caress off

Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Aug 5, 2020

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?



On the one hand, Germany did employ conscription, and while the regular army did do bad poo poo, I'm sure there were people who refused to take part. On the other, Sniper Elite explicitly puts you up against SS dudes most of the time.

Phlegmish
Jul 2, 2011



HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

On the one hand, Germany did employ conscription, and while the regular army did do bad poo poo, I'm sure there were people who . On the other, Sniper Elite explicitly puts you up against SS dudes most of the time.

Alright, that piece of context does make it different for me. I don't have a problem shooting SS members, although even then I wouldn't particularly enjoy seeing people die in graphic detail.

Stux
Nov 17, 2006

Phlegmish posted:

Yes, as in, the enemy is understood to have committed mass rape and that is one of the reasons why they're so bad and we have to fight them. Not that they use rape as part of the actual gameplay. How would that even work?


Yes completely insane, surely no goon would ever post anything remotely like that

v funny to be writing long walls of text but being unable to grasp why the structure of that sentence sounds the way it does

and the question "why is murder ok but rape is bad huh??" is a reddit incel mra question. no one cares about regular sex stuff. theres many types of violence of which rape is one that are often out of bounds because using them would be insanely gross, and especially using dooms violence as an example to put next to rape is a galaxy brain level comparison. none of this is complicated or difficult to understand if you re brain consists of more than a little earthworm wiggling around on your spine.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

Phlegmish posted:

e: oh and just ignore the goons going 'lol gently caress off CHUD MRA INCEL CREEP', it's SA, they're contractually obligated to post a combination of these words every few hours.

Got a philosophical question, if goons like you stopped post about how rape in a game could be good, actually, would anyone still have to shout those things?

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.
Entirely non-philosophically, I would say "no."

Orv
May 4, 2011
Jesus christ.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


Themes of sexual assault can be good. Themes of sex can be good. It's very hard to do these things tastefully. All forms of media struggle with that. But maybe don't jump straight to rape, and drawing a false equivalency between sexual violence and physical violence?

Phlegmish
Jul 2, 2011



Stux posted:

v funny to be writing long walls of text but being unable to grasp why the structure of that sentence sounds the way it does

and the question "why is murder ok but rape is bad huh??" is a reddit incel mra question. no one cares about regular sex stuff. theres many types of violence of which rape is one that are often out of bounds because using them would be insanely gross, and especially using dooms violence as an example to put next to rape is a galaxy brain level comparison. none of this is complicated or difficult to understand if you re brain consists of more than a little earthworm wiggling around on your spine.

If it's such a dumb and simple question, then just answer it instead of immediately going into twitter aggro mob mode because you think you might have spotted a wrongthinker and they have to pay.

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

Phlegmish posted:

If it's such a dumb and simple question, then just answer it instead of immediately going into twitter aggro mob mode because you think you might have spotted a wrongthinker and they have to pay.

If you think poking fun at someone who doesn't realize they're making an rear end of themselves is the same as going aggro mob I don't know what to tell you bud, I'm assuming you're just projecting for some reason

All Stux posted at you on the topic before then was "lol"

MMF Freeway
Sep 15, 2010

Later!
I like to call all my moron opinions wrongthink so that whenever someone calls me a dumbass they look like they're doing a fash on me

Awesome!
Oct 17, 2008

Ready for adventure!


Fargin Icehole posted:

I must be the only one who did not enjoy playing Grim Dawn. I think I'm near the end but it's boring as poo poo, and my build is awful, I want something that lets me make mincemeat out of everything.
i did one playthrough and had no desire to go back to it afterwards. i did try it again during a path of exile lull several months ago and that didnt change my mind at all.

Call Your Grandma
Jan 17, 2010

HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

Themes of sexual assault can be good. Themes of sex can be good. It's very hard to do these things tastefully. All forms of media struggle with that. But maybe don't jump straight to rape, and drawing a false equivalency between sexual violence and physical violence?

Video games also need you to be enjoying the content enough to stick with it through multiple hours while other media only need seconds or minutes to engage and provoke the audience.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


Phlegmish posted:

If it's such a dumb and simple question, then just answer it instead of immediately going into twitter aggro mob mode because you think you might have spotted a wrongthinker and they have to pay.

A bad guy using mass rape is just kinda tasteless and awful? Like, that just turns it into misery porn.

John Lee
Mar 2, 2013

A time traveling adventure everyone can enjoy

Phlegmish posted:

If it's such a dumb and simple question, then just answer it instead of immediately going into twitter aggro mob mode because you think you might have spotted a wrongthinker and they have to pay.


I think it's a interesting question, but now's not the time or place for it!

Also, the broad outlines of good answers have been given already in the thread:

Cardiovorax posted:

Everyone can imagine a situation where violence is a reasonably justified and necessary way to solve a problem, especially when you're being threatened or attacked without provocation. Nobody except the most brokebrained person imaginable would think up a scenario where you're being threatened with sexual violence and the solution is to counter-rape your assailant.

Peaceful Anarchy posted:

The violence in media is, contextually, righteous or justified in some way. You can certainly discuss the validity of those justifications and whether they make sense or are just window dressing for the violence, but even so characters are violent to achieve a goal. Rape, on the other hand, can't generally be structured in a way to make its purpose anything other than self satisfying violence. It is much more hosed up morally.

luxury handset posted:

a lot of folks don't really like graphic violence either, but violence is more acceptable in cartoon terms as a gameplay mechanic than cartoon sex

violence can be abstracted away, or softened, or justified, to some level where it's not graphic anymore and barely even violence. you can't really do the same for explicit sexual content aside from just innuendo or softcore cheese, or silly wish fulfillment romance subplots. and there's more games out there i think for people to get themselves off to sexually than there are games for people to live out some fantasy of inflicting extreme violence on another person

Anonymous Robot
Jun 1, 2007

Lost his leg in Robo War I
Remember how gross all that stuff in Tomb Raider 2016 or whatever was? drat that sucked

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Call Your Grandma posted:

Video games also need you to be enjoying the content enough to stick with it through multiple hours while other media only need seconds or minutes to engage and provoke the audience.
There are a lot of people here who would tell you that a video game doesn't actually need to be fun or enjoyable to play in order to be a good game, as much as I personally disagree, so that might not be as much of a factor as you think.

Cream-of-Plenty
Apr 21, 2010

"The world is a hellish place, and bad writing is destroying the quality of our suffering."

Fargin Icehole posted:

The class I picked was the one that throws molotovs all the time with a little bit of occult stuff. Grim Dawn bored the gently caress outta me, I refunded it.

I kept hearing that it was better than Diablo so I bought it again on deep sale and continued as my original character and I'm still bored

Yeah unfortunately, I've tried to get into the game a couple of times--and I know there's somebody on my Friend's list who absolutely loves the game--but I keep bouncing off of it. Personally, my biggest issue is that it follows the common ARPG mechanic of everything being built around multiple playthroughs, with the initial run being way too easy and having limited options to immediately make it more difficult. I really don't want to spend 10? 12? hours sleep-speedrunning through the game on my first playthrough to get to New Game + where the difficulty actually starts to push back on me. I wish these developers could figure out a way to let me start on Hard, even if it involves giving me a head start with an approx. number of points that one would accrue on their first run to invest in a new character.

Stux
Nov 17, 2006

Phlegmish posted:

If it's such a dumb and simple question, then just answer it instead of immediately going into twitter aggro mob mode because you think you might have spotted a wrongthinker and they have to pay.

if he was saying the earth was flat and people were calling him stupid would that be a twitter aggro mob spotting wrongthink as well or would he just be an idiot makes you think

MMF Freeway
Sep 15, 2010

Later!

Cream-of-Plenty posted:

Yeah unfortunately, I've tried to get into the game a couple of times--and I know there's somebody on my Friend's list who absolutely loves the game--but I keep bouncing off of it. Personally, my biggest issue is that it follows the common ARPG mechanic of everything being built around multiple playthroughs, with the initial run being way too easy and having limited options to immediately make it more difficult. I really don't want to spend 10? 12? hours sleep-speedrunning through the game on my first playthrough to get to New Game + where the difficulty actually starts to push back on me. I wish these developers could figure out a way to let me start on Hard, even if it involves giving me a head start with an approx. number of points that one would accrue on their first run to invest in a new character.

Not sure when the last time you tried it was but the devs apparently recognized this issue and have adjusted the veteran mode (this is essentially hard mode first playthrough) to actually be pretty challenging. Still have to do multiple playthroughs though which is indeed a pain

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

I want to point out that Ambaire has not responded to anybody responding to them at all, neither to dunks nor to the sincere responses, so Phlegmish coming in and getting dogpiled for trying to defend their honor when they basically did a poo poo and run is pretty funny imo

Ciaphas
Nov 20, 2005

> BEWARE, COWARD :ovr:


*stage lights come on, curtain falls*

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

MMF Freeway posted:

Not sure when the last time you tried it was but the devs apparently recognized this issue and have adjusted the veteran mode (this is essentially hard mode first playthrough) to actually be pretty challenging. Still have to do multiple playthroughs though which is indeed a pain
Veteran mode is indeed pretty challenging and much closer to what someone who finds normal too easy otherwise would want. You die pretty easily even to standard trash mobs.

Mr. Fall Down Terror
Jan 24, 2018

by Fluffdaddy

Call Your Grandma posted:

Video games also need you to be enjoying the content enough to stick with it through multiple hours while other media only need seconds or minutes to engage and provoke the audience.

this is something i think about a lot, video games already have a lot of barriers to entry. imagine if in between every chapter of a book you had to take a test to proceed and if you failed the test you had to re-read the chapter

games are looong and people play games for specific content, and there's a difference between a few moments of minutes of extreme sexual/violent content to set the tone rather than hours of it because that kind of content is the point of the game

a lot of games don't really engage with their content on a metaphorical level, but on a direct and visceral level. this is because games are the most interactive art form so you can get right down there in the middle of whatever is going on. so games don't just use moments of violence or sex to set a tone, the use of violence or sex can also be the purpose of the game itself. it's like the difference between watching john wick and going to a shooting range

so if someone's going to get past the barriers of entry to a game and engage with however much content to get to the payoff, whatever that payoff is, then that payoff isn't going to be allegorical, it will be explicit, and that can easily be something that only a small fraction of players actually want to witness and experience

Anonymous Robot posted:

Remember how gross all that stuff in Tomb Raider 2016 or whatever was? drat that sucked

this is a great example actually, im not generally a 3d action game player but i have no intention of playing the modern tomb raider games because the realistic, painful death sequences just disturb me more than they darkly entertain me. i get that it's not really sadism but rather trying to add some weight and consequence to failure but i just personally don't want to see that kind of content

Red Alert 2 Yuris Revenge
May 8, 2006

"My brain is amazing! It's full of wrinkles, and... Uh... Wait... What am I trying to say?"
This conversation sucks rear end but I'm hesitant to shut down actual media discussion since y'all took the question with way more good faith than it may have deserved. Just don't get loving weird in here!!

Fuligin
Oct 27, 2010

wait what the fuck??

I feel like the Tomb Raider reboot death animations get way overblown, but it's been a minute since I played that game. At the time I mostly recall thinking they were in the same vein as the various horrible ways Leon can die in RE4, or Isaac in Dead Space. Personally i find those entertaining, although i can't blame someone for getting grossed out

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


Fuligin posted:

I feel like the Tomb Raider reboot death animations get way overblown, but it's been a minute since I played that game. At the time I mostly recall thinking they were in the same vein as the various horrible ways Leon can die in RE4, or Isaac in Dead Space. Personally i find those entertaining, although i can't blame someone for getting grossed out

The deaths I thought were fine, but the stuff you survive definitely made me wince hard. I think the Leon and Isaac deaths play better because those games are survival horror though, while Tomb Raider's always been a more fun action/exploration series, so there was a harder dissonance.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

Fuligin posted:

I feel like the Tomb Raider reboot death animations get way overblown, but it's been a minute since I played that game. At the time I mostly recall thinking they were in the same vein as the various horrible ways Leon can die in RE4, or Isaac in Dead Space. Personally i find those entertaining, although i can't blame someone for getting grossed out
The Tomb Raider reboot animations are death. way more overdone than the RE4 animations. Like Leon gets killed pretty brutally but its fairly quick. Lara gets her throat impaled by a rusty metal pole and theres a good 10-15 seconds of her struggling to pull it out and choking and poo poo. It lingers in the moment too much.

Plus there's the larger disconnect of RE4 and Dead Space being horror games with impossible monsters while Tomb Raider wasn't really marketed as a horror game and is relatively grounded. And them marketing Tomb Raider as like, this woke reboot that makes Lara a stronger protagonist, and she spends the entire game either terrified or dying horribly, except for the last ten minutes.

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Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
The loving river of blood!!! Come on man, that whole segment threw the game permanently into gross whackadoo territory. Did the old games have a lot of segments where you scrounge around a cave decorated with gore and corpses along with frankly implausible amounts of liquid blood making rivers and streams to wade through?

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