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In Training
Jun 28, 2008

i wonder why "sprite work is too expensive" is always the go-to line from major companies worth billions but all the "poverty" games are usually demarcated by their dependence on sprites, like Melty and AH etc. how does that work?

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The Kins
Oct 2, 2004

In Training posted:

i wonder why "sprite work is too expensive" is always the go-to line from major companies worth billions but all the "poverty" games are usually demarcated by their dependence on sprites, like Melty and AH etc. how does that work?
I can't speak for the budget on creating 3D characters versus creating 2D ones, but if you need to adjust an animation after the fact for whatever reason (gameplay changes, bug fixes etc.) it's gonna be a lot quicker to alter an existing 3D animation than it'll be to draw new 2D sprite frames.

Ms. Unsmiley
Feb 13, 2012

at least in melty's case they get a lot of mileage from reusing a ton of sprites across the entire cast. that game would have a way smaller roster if they didnt

Golden Battler
Sep 6, 2010

~Perfect and Elegant~
Melty also came out like 18 years ago

Smoking Crow
Feb 14, 2012

*laughs at u*

In Training posted:

i wonder why "sprite work is too expensive" is always the go-to line from major companies worth billions but all the "poverty" games are usually demarcated by their dependence on sprites, like Melty and AH etc. how does that work?

melty and AH have sd sprites

the way you do hd sprites now is you model a 3d object and then trace over it (this is how kof13 did it). it takes a really really long to do this. im not sure how examu does this for million arthur, but i'm pretty sure this is how french bread does their sprites

FanaticalMilk
Mar 11, 2011


dragon enthusiast posted:

imagining the alternate universe where arcsys didnt nail their cel shading and xrd ended up looking like a sfxt monstrosity

I think at worst it would've looked like Battle Fantasia. I can't think of any earlier 3D fighting games from Arc Sys. But it still seems like Guilty Gear could've gotten it way worse than they did.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

Zeether posted:

Someone was saying the Lagowe in MBON is broken because you can spam the BuCUE assist and can use double the amount of them with Shooting Burst active and I kind of want to try that when I get the game
There's a few fun assist spam suits. The Tieren from 00 does that too.

Jazerus
May 24, 2011


In Training posted:

i wonder why "sprite work is too expensive" is always the go-to line from major companies worth billions but all the "poverty" games are usually demarcated by their dependence on sprites, like Melty and AH etc. how does that work?

HD sprite artists are in very short supply compared to 3D modellers, and you can't really brute force sprite art with a big team of moderately talented people rather than a few very talented ones. any HD sprite artist with sense would know that if they were being approached by capcom to do a new street fighter, they could charge a lot of money because capcom has deep pockets. indie companies obviously don't, and the sprite artists still need to work, so they don't pay the premium rates that a big company would need to.

mango sentinel
Jan 5, 2001

by sebmojo

In Training posted:

i wonder why "sprite work is too expensive" is always the go-to line from major companies worth billions but all the "poverty" games are usually demarcated by their dependence on sprites, like Melty and AH etc. how does that work?

You can pay hundreds of low talent creators nothing to crack out models of tin cans and wadded up papers to fill out a 3D world for AAA games. Strong HD sprite art is not just labor intensive to redraw thousands and of frames of huge, lush sprites, but also requires a ton of talent and skill to keep them consistent in style and looking good. Them you can reuse approximately zero of those assets or technology in your other games. Meanwhile, Capcom wouldn't even pay an intern to animate a skeleton for Cammy's air throw.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010
Switchblade Switcharoo

In Training posted:

i wonder why "sprite work is too expensive" is always the go-to line from major companies worth billions but all the "poverty" games are usually demarcated by their dependence on sprites, like Melty and AH etc. how does that work?
It's an accumulation of shortcuts and approximations that some fighting game companies eventually latched on as a handy way to not say sprites are an outdated aesthetic for indies.

  • In the PS1/PS2/PS3 eras sprites were expensive indeed, but in terms of memory. Raw bitmaps are much heavier than animated vector models so there's only so many sprites you can stuff in the proportionally limited texture memory those consoles had. There's texture compression but you can only use built-in compression, which is lossy and thus not usable for pixel art. Two caveats though: First, in the PS3 era it was mostly true because devs tried to just stuff raw sprites but Skullgirls showed the approach was very viable through streaming only the necessary sprites for a given frame to video memory (which allows any kind of custom compression scheme you want). That's why Skullgirls had thrice the sprite count at a superior definition from any arcsys 2d offering with up to thrice the amount of on-screen characters. Second, it's all mostly irrelevant with current consoles which have oodles of memory unless you want like 4k sprites or something.
  • Sprite animators are hard to find (and so may be expensive to find)! It's, to some extent, lost knowledge outside of specific environments like indie communities or companies like Arcsys that maintain the know-how internally.They're very likely self-taught individuals that you'll have to retrain internally, the software will likely be custom. 2d animation schools don't teach game-specific knowledge. On the other hand, 3d animators are produced by all animation schools and game-specialized animators are super easily found.
  • The production pipeline is super standardized for 3d and not at all for sprites. You'll have to build it from scratch. Which leads us to:
  • Sprites have a very different production pipeline from 3d models. Animating them is drawing them. But for 3d models, you can model them first and animate them later, through a bunch of different people, even animate them first as long as you have a vague skeleton, etc. The animation and the visuals are basically decoupled. This has a number of very useful implications, which follow.
  • You can outsource model animations much more safely! Even if your model is animated by an incompetent and/or cheap animator, it won't show on screenshots as long as the model is good. Hello NetherRealm! But a badly animated sprite will still look terrible on a still frame. Even better, you can motion capture them and add some real time physics and pretend you don't need good craftsmanship.
  • You can correct the model or animation separately and much more easily. Incompetent outsourcing messed up your Chun-Li so much that the whole internet is complaining? Easy to change! With sprites you'd have to correct every single sprite where her face is visible.
  • Nothing is lost when you retime a vector animation. Sprites may very directly be thrown away, making both retakes and retimings expensive. Skullgirls gets around that by only working with sketches until move timings are down, but that means dealing with all the "why does it look like a sketch?" questions from publishers, journalists and potential players (and rating agencies, in a semi-famous Indivisible moment where lab 0 were told streams showing beta character sketchy sprites with clothes not drawn yet would change the game's rating somehow).
  • Costumes! Since 3d models and animations are decoupled you can make very profitable DLC costumes by just making new models. With sprites you need to redraw everything. That extends to diegetic costumes like Sol's dragon install that was just an effect pre-Xrd but can now afford to be a different models using the same animations.
  • Sprites are an outdated aesthetic for indies! Well, that's not true, but a lot of the general audience sure think it is! Xrd (and subsequent Arcsys games) would not have made nearly as much of a splash with sprites.

TL;DR companies don't know how to sprite and it isn't taught in animation or game schools, so for any asset-intensive game it's gonna need a full rework of your production pipeline and can't be outsourced easily. That's the bit that's expensive. And you can't make up for it by selling swimsuit DLC.

Chev fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Aug 6, 2020

mycot
Oct 23, 2014

"It's okay. There are other Terminators! Just give us this one!"
Hell Gem
I feel like the implosion of countless indie game Kickstarters shows that having a couple of good spriteguys isn't enough.

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010



Chev posted:

And you can't make up for it by selling swimsuit DLC.

Unless the game is Nitroplus Blasterz.

Anyways, the real shame about games moving from spritework is that now every game feels the need to tear away control all the drat time for ~dynamic camera angles~ instead of just maintaining a stable camera position and letting the attack go through without pausing everything just for flair.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

the dynamic camera works in xrd due to that games style but strive is definitely overdoing it and it doesnt look good at all in sf4 or 5 because the models arent good enough for that

In Training
Jun 28, 2008

Seeing a dust attack connect in Xrd absolutely blew my mind the first time I saw it.

The Dave
Sep 9, 2003

Costumes are the reason you’ll never see a hand drawn SF again.

Shinji2015
Aug 31, 2007
Keen on the hygiene and on the mission like a super technician.
Some rumors about SFVI from a reputable source:

https://twitter.com/AestheticGamer1/status/1291107791311003651

https://twitter.com/AestheticGamer1/status/1291109526108639232

Gutcruncher
Apr 16, 2005

Go home and be a family man!
Does this mean SF6 will be tag team but with a director that knows what she’s doing, or that it’ll be 1v1?

I actually liked a lot of the way SFXT handled tagging and meter use, and refining that might be nice.

FanaticalMilk
Mar 11, 2011


ACES CURE PLANES posted:

Anyways, the real shame about games moving from spritework is that now every game feels the need to tear away control all the drat time for ~dynamic camera angles~ instead of just maintaining a stable camera position and letting the attack go through without pausing everything just for flair.

The worst part about 3D models is how sloppy fabric and hair still looks. Compared to when every movement was handmade and not just a result of a physics engine. Necalli's hair is just the worse.

Captain Baal
Oct 23, 2010

I Failed At Anime 2022
It's gonna be 1v1 still I'm sure.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

My guess is Ono wanted SF6 to go full esports and was angling for a 3v3 system and maybe pitched the idea of organizations fielding 3 player rosters for tournaments in the same vein as Street Fighter League.

The Ol Spicy Keychain
Jan 17, 2013

I MEPHISTO MY OWN ASSHOLE
Sounds awful enough to be 100% true lmao.

yo mamma a Horus
Apr 7, 2008

Nap Ghost
ono holding up his blanka toy as he excitedly exclaims we don't need marvel to make marvel! we make marvel!

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

Gutcruncher posted:

Does this mean SF6 will be tag team but with a director that knows what she’s doing, or that it’ll be 1v1?

I actually liked a lot of the way SFXT handled tagging and meter use, and refining that might be nice.

The tag mechanic was taken out behind the shed and shot the second Ono was pulled off SF6. I imagine if it they had left it in as is, they wouldn't have needed to delay the game at all.

Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Aug 7, 2020

The Dave
Sep 9, 2003

Blockhouse posted:

The tag mechanic was taken out behind the shed and shot the second Ono was pulled off SF6. I imagine if it they had left it in as is, they wouldn't have needed to delay the game at all.

We don't know that they ditched tag, just that they ditched whatever Ono wanted to do that involved tag.

Gutcruncher
Apr 16, 2005

Go home and be a family man!

Blockhouse posted:

The tag mechanic was taken out behind the shed and shot the second Ono was pulled off SF6. I imagine if it they had left it in as is, they wouldn't have needed to delay the game at all.

My assumption would be that if they were keeping tag team it would be massively changed from whatever trash Ono was doing with it.

Real hurthling!
Sep 11, 2001




i need my tag and team games to be utterly degenerate in a way that i doubt a numbered sf game would ever be

Weird Pumpkin
Oct 7, 2007

Real hurthling! posted:

i need my tag and team games to be utterly degenerate in a way that i doubt a numbered sf game would ever be

:yeah: honestly this is the biggest problem with a tag street fighter game.

Though, I'd definitely be interested enough to try it

Shinji2015
Aug 31, 2007
Keen on the hygiene and on the mission like a super technician.

Elvis_Maximus posted:

:yeah: honestly this is the biggest problem with a tag street fighter game.

Though, I'd definitely be interested enough to try it

Same, although just out of hand I feel like that they're just doing their own version of KOF

FanaticalMilk
Mar 11, 2011


Shinji2015 posted:

Same, although just out of hand I feel like that they're just doing their own version of KOF

Wasn't that the point of the CVS series. Capcom's take on a 3v3 KOF style game.

PaletteSwappedNinja
Jun 3, 2008

One Nation, Under God.
SFEX3 has a number in the title

Gologle
Apr 15, 2013

The Gologle Posting Experience.

<3
Seeing Daigo or Tokido play a team game where TODs and unblockables and true 50/50 mixes exist and there are a thousand Vergil helm breakers and Zero loops would make my day, but ruin my year.

Mans
Sep 14, 2011

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
i'd gladly accept a tag team street fighter game as long as the netcode allowed me to play it online with my friends unlike the attrocious netcode on V

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
I'm pretty sure fighting games have always been on the more intensive side with sprite animation. The thing is that, on top of all the reasons listed above, the short version is that simple sprites like in an 8 or 16 bit platformer are a lot easier to make than those for a fighting game where characters are expected to look more realistically proportioned and take up much more of the screen.

PaletteSwappedNinja
Jun 3, 2008

One Nation, Under God.
https://twitter.com/miharasan/status/1291324624051953664

EDIT: they've already decided to add it, that was quick

https://twitter.com/miharasan/status/1291655575369998336

PaletteSwappedNinja fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Aug 7, 2020

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

A little privacy, please?

Real hurthling! posted:

i need my tag and team games to be utterly degenerate in a way that i doubt a numbered sf game would ever be

play Battle for the Grid

Weird Pumpkin
Oct 7, 2007

DoctorWhat posted:

play Battle for the Grid

This is just good advice for everyone who likes tag games tbh

Battle for the Grid rules extremely hard, even if you're not into power rangers. Though man, I kinda wish it wasn't a power rangers game so that the characters had more visual variety, truth be told. Game is still absolutely worth playing

tracecomplete
Feb 26, 2017

Elvis_Maximus posted:

This is just good advice for everyone who likes tag games tbh

Battle for the Grid rules extremely hard, even if you're not into power rangers. Though man, I kinda wish it wasn't a power rangers game so that the characters had more visual variety, truth be told. Game is still absolutely worth playing

I run a Power Rangers bracket every first and third Thursday of the month ( https://tracecomplete.challonge.com/grid02 was last night ) and this poo poo is bananas.

Y'all should play. It is Good(tm).

Weird Pumpkin
Oct 7, 2007

AFashionableHat posted:

I run a Power Rangers bracket every first and third Thursday of the month ( https://tracecomplete.challonge.com/grid02 was last night ) and this poo poo is bananas.

Y'all should play. It is Good(tm).

Oh dang I had no idea, I should play in that!

BoosterDuck
Mar 2, 2019
I honestly would've enjoyed tag team mechanics in SF to shake things up. But I'm more surprised Ono was in charge for so long after loving up so much.

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Weird Pumpkin
Oct 7, 2007

BoosterDuck posted:

I honestly would've enjoyed tag team mechanics in SF to shake things up. But I'm more surprised Ono was in charge for so long after loving up so much.

Corporate inertia is a helluva thing

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