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paradoxGentleman posted:This, this, a thousand times this. The only thing that matters is "Minrah cast a buff spell associated with Thor and attacked Redcloak, thus interrupting his powerful clerical spell". The fact that D&D shorthand are used to signify this doesn't change this. Nah, Rich throws in D&D stuff specifically for people to sperg over. It's not worth getting in a snit about any inconsistencies, but it's fun to fiddle with. Likewise, I don't see how even mild powergaming makes sense in a world inhabited by ostensibly normal folk. Sure, you could have an unbeatable lv 16 wizard with contingencies for everything if they're rich enough... but that doesn't jibe with the world we've been shown. Instead, it's populated by people who haven't read every splatbook and haven't contemplated the implications of spell synergies.
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Aug 12, 2020 14:07
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habeasdorkus posted:Nah, Rich throws in D&D stuff specifically for people to sperg over. It's not worth getting in a snit about any inconsistencies, but it's fun to fiddle with. The most optimized character was Zz'dtri I think? Who was optimized specifically to be a pain in the rear end for V.
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Aug 12, 2020 14:10
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Has Elan's mom been shown in more than one panel?
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Aug 12, 2020 14:12
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Per Minrah's levels and according to the OOTS forums boffins. Though looking at the link cited I'm not sure it's really accurate-she just says that she's a good fighter before she became a cleric. So she might be lower than 5th, which would make sense. The PC's could (and probably should) have leveled a couple times since we last saw their official level-ups... I don't recall anyone leveling except Elan since the Empire of Blood sideplot. 9th Level cleric is what would be required to cast Righteous Might (5th level spell), which is where I'm getting that from. She cast Searing Light during the Vamp arc, so that'd have made her 5th Level at that point.
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Aug 12, 2020 14:14
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habeasdorkus posted:Nah, Rich throws in D&D stuff specifically for people to sperg over. It's not worth getting in a snit about any inconsistencies, but it's fun to fiddle with. Yeah - and it's also worth remembering, a lot of the really broken caster stuff is from splatbooks. Clerics without divine metamagic are more powerful than fighters and rangers, but not egregiously so. PHB wizards are very strong (Evard's Black Tentacles is ridiculously overtuned) but they're not as heinous as they get when you bring expanded spell lists and feats into play.
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Aug 12, 2020 14:15
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ultrafilter posted:Has Elan's mom been shown in more than one panel? Yes - she was in a few flashback panels (serve, serve, serve refreshing adult beverages! and the overly complicated table service plan) as well as the big illusion.
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Aug 12, 2020 14:15
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ultrafilter posted:Has Elan's mom been shown in more than one panel? According to the character appearance count list on the GitP forums, she's been in four strips.
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Aug 12, 2020 14:23
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Also she falls into V's spouse category of "What can she do, attack them in the hole in their armor the size and shape of a refreshing adult beverage?"
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Aug 12, 2020 14:34
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ultrafilter posted:Has Elan's mom been shown in more than one panel?
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Aug 12, 2020 14:34
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kwokkie posted:There's a 'fizzle' sound effect in the last panel, so maybe the spell didn't finish at all and Durkon looking hurt is just something superficial and not real damage? Nah, the comic's always used that kind of stuff as a visual representation of HP. It would be weird to have it be cosmetic just this one time. It seems like in this setting implosion works like some crushing spells in various systems, where a target is helpless and takes damage until their HP hits zero and they get imploded or the spell ends. That would explain why the spell destroyed those mooks near instantly but took a short while to fully implode Durkon.
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Aug 12, 2020 14:58
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Taciturn Tactician posted:Nah, the comic's always used that kind of stuff as a visual representation of HP. It would be weird to have it be cosmetic just this one time. It seems like in this setting implosion works like some crushing spells in various systems, where a target is helpless and takes damage until their HP hits zero and they get imploded or the spell ends. That would explain why the spell destroyed those mooks near instantly but took a short while to fully implode Durkon. Would it surprise you to learn that that is not at all how the implode spell works?
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Aug 12, 2020 15:14
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Yeah, the implode spell kills a person in one round if they fail the fort save. If you ran it strictly adhering to the spell's description in the SRD or whatever, it wouldn't allow for either a monologue or for an ally to disrupt the spell. It'd just straight up mook Durkon. That being said, it's cooler for it to work more slowly here, so who cares what the SRD says.
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Aug 12, 2020 15:20
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It's funny how Redcloak nearly doomed the world right there and then. What no one in setting knows beside Loki and Thor is if this goes sideways then Loki is switching to support Hela to make sure his daughter has enough souls to last until the next world. I wonder how close he'll let Team Evil get to destroying the gate before he flips his vote? That red line hasn't been made clear yet.
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Aug 12, 2020 15:20
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:If you ran it strictly adhering to the spell's description in the SRD or whatever, it wouldn't allow for either a monologue or for an ally to disrupt the spell. Talking is a Free Action. Durkon could recite all of War and Peace in the six seconds it would take him to die.
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Aug 12, 2020 15:31
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oobey posted:Talking is a Free Action. Durkon could recite all of War and Peace in the six seconds it would take him to die. 
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Aug 12, 2020 15:33
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Mechanically this is wonky regardless but the cleanest way to interpret it is "Minrah won initiative, cast Thor's Might and moved into range, then Redcloak attempted to cast his spell, took an opportunity attack, and failed his Concentration check". We see things happen slightly out of order from that, but the combat mechanics of it track that way.
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Aug 12, 2020 15:35
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Who knew that Disintegrate spell would go on to have such dire ramifications?
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Aug 12, 2020 15:36
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oobey posted:Who knew that Disintegrate spell would go on to have such dire ramifications? Actually it was the second casting that had dire ramifications. 
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Aug 12, 2020 15:38
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ikanreed posted:Would it surprise you to learn that that is not at all how the implode spell works? I know how it works in the SRD. Taciturn Tactician posted:It seems like in this setting Redcloak already has said it prevents resurrection, so it's already different than SRD implosion.
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Aug 12, 2020 16:16
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violent sex idiot posted:the dungeons and dragons mechanical bits do not matter Multiple times raw game mechanics have been directly referenced/applied by characters in the comic. People tend to forget this, but at the same time they matter as much as Rich wants them to matter.
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Aug 12, 2020 16:23
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The rules matter to the extent that they support the story. If there's conflict between them, the story always wins.
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Aug 12, 2020 16:25
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I wonder... has there been an instance where the D&D rules have been completely gutted so that the story might continue working? Besides Roy being one of the most effective members of the group, I mean.
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Aug 12, 2020 17:06
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I mean, obviously true. But trying to invent explanations in terms of hitpoints and damage over time vs "it sucks to not die from implode" seems just as grognardy
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Aug 12, 2020 17:06
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paradoxGentleman posted:I wonder... has there been an instance where the D&D rules have been completely gutted so that the story might continue working? Where do you draw the lines between the rules being gutted, DM fiat, and homebrew spells/feats/classes? I think, out of the strip as a whole so far, the Soul Splice was probably the most egregious thing I can think of off the top of my head.
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Aug 12, 2020 17:12
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Android Blues posted:Mechanically this is wonky regardless but the cleanest way to interpret it is "Minrah won initiative, cast Thor's Might and moved into range, then Redcloak attempted to cast his spell, took an opportunity attack, and failed his Concentration check". We see things happen slightly out of order from that, but the combat mechanics of it track that way. Someone posted their guess at how it could have worked within the rules. It's probably also wonky, but summarized, it's this. 1. Durkon readies an action to end Wind Walk on Minrah if Redcloak attacks him, while Minrah readies Thor's Might if Durkon gets attacked. 2. Redcloak attacks, triggering both readied actions. 3. Durkon ends the Wind Walk spell on Minrah, which ends it immediately, without the 5 rounds needed to transform. 4. While falling thanks to the lack of Wind Walk, Minrah casts Thor's Might. 5. Redcloak is within her threatened squares, so she gets an attack of opportunity. However, even the person posting it acknowledged that the simplest explanation is that Rich isn't paying that close attention to the rules anymore.
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Aug 12, 2020 17:25
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It makes a better story for things to happen like this, so who cares if it doesn't work like the rules say it should? What's the alternative? Durkon anti-climactically makes his save with little fanfare and they stand around for 6-12 seconds until Minrah attacks? Sounds kind of lame. Anyone who wrote things happening that way would be kind of a hack.
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Aug 12, 2020 17:34
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In 1204 Roy noticed that Durkon never landed with the rest of the group, but Minrah was also missing. Looks like Durkon did know better than to go up to Redcloak completely unarmed.
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Aug 12, 2020 18:04
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Looks good from the last time they spoke, too.
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Aug 12, 2020 18:45
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ultrafilter posted:In 1204 Roy noticed that Durkon never landed with the rest of the group, but Minrah was also missing. Looks like Durkon did know better than to go up to Redcloak completely unarmed. Even if she was supposed to I don't think Minrah is the type to let Durkon go alone
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Aug 12, 2020 18:53
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I think the simplest explanation is that Redcloak could kill Durkon instantly, but chose not to. At first hoping he could morally high ground Durkon if he let him get in a last word, and subsequently to prolong his suffering when that immediately backfired on him. We see him clenching his fist, which is accompanied with a snap and a scream from off-screen, so it’s a fair assumption that he exerts some control over the effect. This is not technically part of Implosion’s description, but that thing is so vague that it allows for some artistic license. E: This allows for Durkon to take (non-fatal) damage from a save-or-did spell, unlike any RAW interpretation. Also, importantly, it means that the one thing that actually prevented Redcloak from beating the Order at this juncture was his ego, which contrasts the scene of him crushing the Resistance and not falling for Thanh’s final taunt in BRitF. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Aug 12, 2020 |
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Aug 12, 2020 20:05
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Mystic Mongol posted:Looks good from the last time they spoke, too. Nice catch!
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Aug 12, 2020 20:09
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Rich is a fantastic writer.
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Aug 12, 2020 20:21
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Agreed. There wouldn't be over a thousand pages of discussion over (checks) thirteen years if he wasn't.
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Aug 12, 2020 21:02
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paradoxGentleman posted:I wonder... has there been an instance where the D&D rules have been completely gutted so that the story might continue working? https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html
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Aug 12, 2020 21:07
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kwokkie posted:There's a 'fizzle' sound effect in the last panel, so maybe the spell didn't finish at all and Durkon looking hurt is just something superficial and not real damage? No, fizzle is from the dragon quest series
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Aug 12, 2020 21:12
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ikanreed posted:I mean, obviously true. But trying to invent explanations in terms of hitpoints and damage over time vs "it sucks to not die from implode" seems just as grognardy It 100% is grognardy. Which is why going overboard with it in a "waaaah, D&D mechanics don't work like that!" way is real silly and people should not do that. But I like roughly knowing what the characters are capable of based upon their D&D stats, and it's neat to see the mechanics used in storytelling.
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Aug 12, 2020 21:28
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If Xykon could research a variant Moderate-Strength Forcecage specifically for Miko, I don't see why Redcloak has to be stuck with the default Implosion.
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Aug 12, 2020 21:41
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:If Xykon could research a variant Moderate-Strength Forcecage specifically for Miko, I don't see why Redcloak has to be stuck with the default Implosion. This is also the guy who came up with Chlorine Elementals, after all.
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Aug 12, 2020 21:53
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Rich's relationship with the rules (and expectations) really is a fascinating element to this story in its own right. Some of these examples of course specifically call out the rules twists or story teller fiat as well. (there's an irony in calling out the rules breaks in narrative, if the rules aren't important) This ones is a little different though, but even still, Rich has Redcloak specifically call out the lack of Resurrection options even though that's not RAW, when Destruction exists and was already used by Redcloak in a cleric duel no less: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html (the near instant effect might have saved him the vicious burn) Very few authors even attempt track to the extent he has, and on some level I think his regular adherence to them make the story better because they give a limited grounding to the fantasy world. Despite this even in tabletop, breaking the rules for story is also good and any quality DM will do so for innumerable reasons (especially if there is player consent to play loose for story).
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Aug 12, 2020 23:05
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Mystic Mongol posted:Looks good from the last time they spoke, too. Furthermore, in strip 1200, Roy tells Durkon NOT to use sending to contact Redcloak, but Durkon does not agree not to talk to him via other means....: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1200.html
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Aug 12, 2020 23:09
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