|
The starshower is basically like how they put a volcano on the cover of Dianetics to restimulate the distant memory of the time you got flown across the galaxy and dropped in a volcano The echo is you achieving the state of clear, and a warrior of light is an operating thetan
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 07:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 16, 2024 04:52 |
|
|
homeless snail posted:The starshower is basically like how they put a volcano on the cover of Dianetics to restimulate the distant memory of the time you got flown across the galaxy and dropped in a volcano ...I don't really like how this is the most full, understandable and effective explanation for this that I've seen so far.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 07:25
|
|
|
Since this one has spoilers, postin' it here!
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 17:28
|
|
|
I am musically dumb but I enjoy this guy's analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM0F7YAtW4s
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 18:54
|
|
|
thinking about it, I am very disappointed that we never got the opportunity to call our friend Raha
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 18:57
|
|
|
We'll get the option during our wedding.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 19:01
|
|
|
Oxyclean posted:I am musically dumb but I enjoy this guy's analysis: He's fun, I've been following him for a while. I love how he's so into the motifs 
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 19:03
|
|
|
Arist posted:He's fun, I've been following him for a while. I love how he's so into the motifs Yeah, I stumbled upon his video for The Twinning / A Long Fall awhile back and it was a real treat. I think I have a pretty bad ear, but I love seeing people break apart music and explain where all the motifs come from.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 19:06
|
|
|
Terper posted:We'll get the option during our wedding. It'll be cold comfort for him when we're up at the alter with Y'shtola 
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 19:12
|
|
|
Y'shtola has already made it clear she has no interest in little suns.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 20:26
|
|
|
weep, you catgirls my trusts have given you up I now run dungeons with chuuni catboys goodbye, wondrous femininity!
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 20:42
|
|
|
YES bread posted:weep, you catgirls
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 20:47
|
|
|
So is like Elidibus' soul just chilling in the Crystal Tower forever? I'm not sure how cool i am with that especially since it's somewhat ambiguous if he was a kid and the last moments we saw him was weeping for all those he lost and failed. They were all monstrous and had to die but I dunno if want to consign him to eternity bound to a tower. Its Rinaldo fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Aug 13, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 20:48
|
|
|
There is no consciousness left, while all of him might be sealed in there it's all in small bits and pieces of aether with no connection or mind. e: presumably, probably
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 20:51
|
|
|
Its Rinaldo posted:So is like Elidibus' soul just chilling in the Crystal Tower forever? I'm not sure how cool i am with that especially since it's somewhat ambiguous if he was a kid and the last moments we saw him was weeping for all those he lost and failed. He's not conscious in there, strictly speaking. More like his atoms are there. The entire reason it took so long to transfer the Scions over was to develop a method for their souls to remain intact and conscious through the trip--just doing what we did to Nabriales and Elidibus, without all those precautions and the flying pig and the cat blood kills you in the process.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 20:51
|
|
|
Its Rinaldo posted:So is like Elidibus' soul just chilling in the Crystal Tower forever? I'm not sure how cool i am with that especially since it's somewhat ambiguous if he was a kid and the last moments we saw him was weeping for all those he lost and failed. The problem is that is the only way to actually kill an Ascian is to either seal them or effectively destroy them. Anything less and they just come back, which is probably doubly true for Elidibus because he wasn't a real Ascian, he was a Primal.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 20:53
|
|
|
can't wait for some idiot with a wagon full of crystals to bring elidibus back
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 20:54
|
|
|
Yeah, I think his essence is effectively dispersed enough to make him effectively dead.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 20:55
|
|
|
Transporting bread across shards this patch had me thinking about aetherology questions
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 20:56
|
|
|
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the giant burst of stardust that the tower blew out of its top was the particles of aether that used to be Elidibus.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 20:58
|
|
|
There's also a lot of ambiguity about whether the soul, as in the aetheric mass of aether animating a person's body, corresponds to their consciousness, which is often described as passing on to a different realm in death. Elidibus the person is almost certainly dead and at rest, it's just the equivalent of the aetheric atoms that stored his personhood are now within the Crystal Tower. Hades was capable of summoning the actual shade of a person from the Underworld, which - given that those souls are presumably long since both fragmented and reborn - implies that the mind isn't synonymous with the aether that holds it. People use up aether all the time. Also keep in mind the Crystal Tower uses aether. It isn't just a giant battery, aether needs to flow through the world naturally. That aether's gonna be scattered out into the world again just as say, the aether that stored Lahabrea's consciousness is now dispersed with Thordan's destruction. That said, yeah, I'm pretty sure Elidibus was a child, originally, and just never could entirely grow up since he was a primal now.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 20:59
|
|
|
CharlieFoxtrot posted:Transporting bread across shards this patch had me thinking about aetherology questions It gets covered in the same patch that conveniently introduces the question of gathering lizards and frogs from the first and bringing them back to the source for ishgard restoration - even if it's a living thing, if you think of it as "your possession," it is treated like an object and comes out intact e: Though I suppose this also breaches the question of the auspices, right? Let alone the tupaq amaro? Is the process of ensoulment a gradual thing like with their consciousness?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 20:59
|
|
|
CharlieFoxtrot posted:Transporting bread across shards this patch had me thinking about aetherology questions It seems like you can basically bring anything across, it just depends on if it is capable of remaining together after you do so. Living beings are a lot more complex than bread and thus are at a greater risk of dissolving. As long as you think of it as part of you then it should be able to come across. The real question is: How does your Chocobo get across.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:00
|
|
|
So correct me if I'm wrong but killing an Ascian means basically busting them up and sending them to the life stream, which is why I was concerned with Elidibus because it seemed like just sticking him in a box forever and not killing him. Thematically, never dying and living forever seemed to be part of what made the Unsundered so awful
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:00
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:It seems like you can basically bring anything across, it just depends on if it is capable of remaining together after you do so. Living beings are a lot more complex than bread and thus are at a greater risk of dissolving. As long as you think of it as part of you then it should be able to come across. Yeah, like, from a cosmic standpoint the difference between a living person's body and a dead person's body is relatively small. It's the same entity, just changed a bit. It's also worth noting that Y'shtola seems to be fairly confident she can one day develop a way to cross the Rift, and I don't see why she'd fail. One thing I appreciate is that in FF14 technology and magic advances, and advances a lot. Its Rinaldo posted:So correct me if I'm wrong but killing an Ascian means basically busting them up and sending them to the life stream, which is why I was concerned with Elidibus because it seemed like just sticking him in a box forever and not killing him. His aether will be spat out of the Crystal Tower sooner or later. We basically just fed his unconscious soul aether to the aetheric equivalent of a woodchipper until it couldn't hold together.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:01
|
|
|
Normally killing them lets them reform in the lifestream, because we don't kill their soul. Lahabrea, Emet-Selch, and now Elidibus have had their souls so irrevocably destroyed that even if they find themselves back in the lifestream, they're basically raw materials again. Auracite was used to trap a few of them, but that was only to hold them still so they wouldn't just blink away as we charge up whatever we're gonna hit them with.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:02
|
|
|
Orcs and Ostriches posted:Normally killing them lets them reform in the lifestream, because we don't kill their soul. Lahabrea, Emet-Selch, and now Elidibus have had their souls so irrevocably destroyed that even if they find themselves back in the lifestream, they're basically raw materials again. And yet a shade of Emet shows up in the trial! Suggesting, as I said, that the aether of the soul and the consciousness of the soul, the imprint memory and self leave behind, aren't really the same thing. Hell, pixies explicitly say they don't actually see aether as the same thing as the person it belonged to. An Lad is not synonymous entirely with Titania, even if they share enough to be seen as a reincarnation/echo. And Alphinaud(?) says ghosts are the living imprints of dead people's memories and consciousness, yet are presumably separate from the soul-body. It sounds, to me, like "soul" in Hydaelyn is more like...the spirit-body for your mind, the container it's stored in on the intangible plane. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Aug 13, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:03
|
|
|
Jetrauben posted:And yet a shade of Emet shows up in the trial! Suggesting, as I said, that the aether of the soul and the consciousness of the soul, the imprint memory and self leave behind, aren't really the same thing. Hell, pixies explicitly say they don't actually see aether as the same thing as the person it belonged to. An Lad is not synonymous entirely with Titania, even if they share enough to be seen as a reincarnation/echo. Was it him, or was it an imprint he put in the stone? Either way, we know that souls get recycled all the time and they're not associated with whoever originally had them. We're not Azem. We're not Ardbert. We're not the thousands of people that shared this soul. Ascians were different in that when they died, or whatever, their soul, consciousness, and everything else stuck together and they could just pop back out.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:06
|
|
|
Orcs and Ostriches posted:Was it him, or was it an imprint he put in the stone? Good question. I feel like it's more satisfying if it's actually him, though? I mean we seem to be Azem enough to count as a degree of continuity. We identify as Azem to a degree, we grieve for Amaurot, we even seem to have some sense of responsibility and ties to Ardbert's life. We are, and we are not. Reincarnation and personhood are complicated! But yeah, the Ascian/immortal paradigm seems to be basically "your soul-body is strong enough it doesn't need a meat suit to hold itself together anymore, which means to kill you properly you need to have your soul-body broken down." It's actually quite consistent, really - primals and even voidsent likewise seem to have this super durable, dense soul-body, which is why they can jump across meatsuits and survive physical deaths.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:08
|
|
|
Its Rinaldo posted:So correct me if I'm wrong but killing an Ascian means basically busting them up and sending them to the life stream, which is why I was concerned with Elidibus because it seemed like just sticking him in a box forever and not killing him. From what I understand: Unsundered Ascians just return to the rift (the place the WoL sends you during the fight) where they chill out until they can make or possess a new body. As long as their body is killed they will effortlessly return assuming they have an option. (See: Emet-Selch) To kill an unsundered Ascian you need to not just kill them but effectively destroy their soul because they are so powerful that is the only option. You effectively have to erase them or they will come back. Elidibus isn't trapped but actively erased (IIRC they even mention his memories not coming along for the ride) and while the aether that made up his primal form might still be in the tower it isn't him anymore. Jetrauben posted:Good question. I feel like it's more satisfying if it's actually him, though? It is and isn't him. As we are told the shades of the Ancients were created by Emet and while they seemed to retain at least a portion of their own personalities they were shaped by him. From what we're shown the Emet during the big fight is Emet's shade of Emet. So it is really him in that it is him creating a version of himself, but it is not really him as it is a fading copy/clone. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Aug 13, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:08
|
|
|
Mister Olympus posted:It gets covered in the same patch that conveniently introduces the question of gathering lizards and frogs from the first and bringing them back to the source for ishgard restoration - even if it's a living thing, if you think of it as "your possession," it is treated like an object and comes out intact This also gets commented on by Bragi in the first where he figures out that the weird out of place stuff that goes through the markets from time to time is you selling off your stuff from the Source, and tells you to keep doing it as it makes things interesting.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:09
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:From what I understand: It sounded like even Sundered Ascians can't be properly killed without rupturing their soul's crunchy shell, though. Nabriales was sundered, I think?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:10
|
|
|
Yeah, I guess that's what I meant. Did we smash up Elidibus' soul or did we just stick him in a Crystal Tower pokeball? Sundering him and putting his echos into the life stream like all the other souls is something I'm good with but the other is oof I dunno. G'Raha Tia shouting about "now I have your soul!" gets a whole different connotation.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:11
|
|
|
Jetrauben posted:It sounded like even Sundered Ascians can't be properly killed without rupturing their soul's crunchy shell, though. Nabriales was sundered, I think? Again I may be misremembering but from what I can recall The are Unsundered Ascians and then varying degrees of Sundered Ascians. Stronger ones can reconstitute themselves by possessing other's bodies while weaker ones are basically killable but are replaced by grabbing one of their shards from another star. Lahabrea did not need to possess new bodies but chose to do so anyway which apparently made him a total loser and actively weakened him. It also makes Emet's behavior make a lot more sense when you realize that the only other true Unsundered Ascian was Lahabrea. Can you imagine how much that must have sucked?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:15
|
|
|
Jetrauben posted:It sounded like even Sundered Ascians can't be properly killed without rupturing their soul's crunchy shell, though. Nabriales was sundered, I think? Yeah, Nabriales was sundered. Gauis seems to have no issue killing the lesser Ascians, nor did the Scions when we were looking for Y'shtola. Igeyorhm and Nabriales got the VIP treatment from us, but maybe that's because we didn't know better, or because Lahabrea or Elidibus would have just snatched them out of the lifestream again. Or maybe in their uplifted station, they were capable of reconstituting themselves? I think it's actually more the latter. We can bust up their body, but without a big enough hit to smash their soul, they can at least pop in and steal a corpse again. I think when G'raha snatched up Elidibus, the Crystal Tower dismantled his aether, soul and all, to get stored as energy again. That's my read on it anyways. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Aug 13, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:16
|
|
|
I feel like whatever happened to make Zenos is a purely technological expression of the process of rejoining an ascian.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:19
|
|
|
Mister Olympus posted:I feel like whatever happened to make Zenos is a purely technological expression of the process of rejoining an ascian. Zenos is a weird case in that it seems like for whatever reason he was born less-Sundered than most other people. He's always been freakishly strong and apparently also has always had dreams of the End of Days which is part of why he was a nihilistic shithead. He just tossed a an artificial Echo on top of that. One thing they seem to strongly be doing is associating Zenos with the Beast of the Apocalypse, and the fact that he never achieved a natural Echo despite seeing the end of days in his dreams on a regular basis makes me wonder if they're building up to a reveal that Zenos is in some way an embodiment of the malformed beasts that ended the previous civilization. It would explain why he is so freakishly powerful to some degree.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:27
|
|
|
Wait, we clutched Azem's crystal and wished upon it with all our hear lol if we made a Emet Selch primal to save us.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:29
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Again I may be misremembering but from what I can recall What happened with Lahabrea is also very similar to what happened with Elidibus. He went through bodies without changing them to his own, and therefore identities, like candy, presumably because he either felt their identities were useful or because he just didn't care. The end result was a man whose identity was falling apart, leaving nothing but a cartoon villain. A thing I like is that Hydaelyn seems to assume both a soul and a body have an imprinted/stored identity in their memory.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 16, 2024 04:52 |
|
|
Was there anything in game associating Azem with the Hydaelyn summoning crew? They objected to summoning Zodiark, but were they linked with Venat and co at all, or did they just head out to do their own thing?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2020 21:31
|
|