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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Onmi posted:

So, Shiva Unreal battle report for the day. The first two runs ended at 100% when people left without even starting to fight. The second run ended at 80% when the concept of "Turn the sword" and "add phase" passed over people wearing i500 gear.

Run 3 actually went rather well, a new PUG, we got to 20% and died to enrage, no problem. We got to 18% next time but the party wiped. Final run ended at 50% It was a mostly fine run except I'm still not great at tank swapping and also the Raid leader insisted on having the entire raid run north for Sword phase to take the slash. Even after the Sword-Tank said "I can just turn it." Spoilers: No one ran north to take the cleave.

Conclusion: The Enrage is REALLY TIGHT and also if a Raid leader isn't a tank they really shouldn't determine how a tank handles a tank mechanic...

That is really strange. The enrage requirement didn't seem particularly harsh to me. I even had a run with a couple of deaths where we still didn't come close to Enrage.

Was someone not DPSing properly or something?

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Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.

ImpAtom posted:

That is really strange. The enrage requirement didn't seem particularly harsh to me. I even had a run with a couple of deaths where we still didn't come close to Enrage.

Was someone not DPSing properly or something?

Not sure, I don't use a Parse so I wasn't keeping an eye on it. From my own performance, I got caught up in doing filler combo's rather than my proper Paladin rotation multiple times. And we needed to hard LB3 Healers to get us up on the 20% run.

EDIT: Oh I should also confirm that this was a PUG. I don't have a static yet.

Onmi fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Aug 17, 2020

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008

It's definitely tighter than I remember it being (:wink:) waaaay back five years ago. I suspect that it's the equivalent of doing the EX trial at minimum ilevel.

Cirina
Feb 15, 2013

Operation complete.
The dps check is definitely rather tight. You can't afford many deaths, and uptime is important, even more so than regular extreme fights. I went in with my e8s static and while we were a little rusty due to not meeting since we finished getting all our E8S drops we managed to clear it within a couple hours.

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008



Got our WOLEX clear way sooner than I thought we would. Of course, we also got a really easy combo of specter phases (DRK and BLM) so we still have the other two to learn :shepface:

Hyper Inferno
Jun 11, 2015
Pug groups were clearing Shiva with 8-9 stacks from footage I was reviewing back in ARR. Most groups nowadays are hitting the 9-10 and even enrage.

I would chalk this up to rotations being more complex than they were in ARR and the ilvl sync. So the devs expecting 80% competency of an ARR rotation back then is very different than 80% now and the variance in good/bad players is way higher. On top of that, they know everyone trying this will pretty much be at ilvl cap already so there's no outgearing it.

Edit: Oh, also solo tank strats. The difference between a tank and actual DPS's DPS was smaller back then, but having an additional DPS would definitely help in that regard.

Hyper Inferno fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Aug 17, 2020

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.
I've made it to 15% on prog. Main issues are I'm still really bad at keeping Shiva turned to not make the entire raid have to run to dodge bow. And being really bad at handling the circles while also doing that. this Enrage is REALLY tight.

EDIT: CLEARED! I AM NEVER DOING THIS AGAIN! HOLY gently caress!

Onmi fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Aug 17, 2020

Copycat Zero
Dec 30, 2004

ニャ~

ImpAtom posted:

That is really strange. The enrage requirement didn't seem particularly harsh to me. I even had a run with a couple of deaths where we still didn't come close to Enrage.

Was someone not DPSing properly or something?

I can't speak to the first clear group I was in (I was tunnel-visioning the mechanics and still died 3-4 times, but they cleared it despite me), but in my second clear we hit enrage at 3% and our successful attempt required squeezing in an extra LB1 (we were all ranged/casters, so that may have had an impact).


Onmi posted:

I've made it to 15% on prog. Main issues are I'm still really bad at keeping Shiva turned to not make the entire raid have to run to dodge bow. And being really bad at handling the circles while also doing that. this Enrage is REALLY tight.

EDIT: CLEARED! I AM NEVER DOING THIS AGAIN! HOLY gently caress!

Congrats. Yeah, I can't help but notice that the two clear groups I was in had tanks that managed how she was aiming the Bow, and the two failed groups had tanks that let her do whatever and claimed that she was unaimable.

Also, yeah, my experience with those four groups makes me reluctant to try making weekly reclears a thing. The only reward that can't also be gotten from Khloe is the minion, and I'm not super-interested in that anyway...

Copycat Zero fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Aug 17, 2020

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008

https://clips.twitch.tv/AmorphousBreakableSnoodAMPTropPunch

WOLEX will use Hallowed Ground if you ever try to use a damaging limit break on him :lmao:

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

Fister Roboto posted:

https://clips.twitch.tv/AmorphousBreakableSnoodAMPTropPunch

WOLEX will use Hallowed Ground if you ever try to use a damaging limit break on him :lmao:

Why couldn't he use living dead.

CharlieFoxtrot
Mar 27, 2007

organize digital employees



He uses True Living Dead on the raid

Its Rinaldo
Aug 13, 2010

CODS BINCH

hobbesmaster posted:

Why couldn't he use living dead.

He does!

Sacro
Jul 21, 2008

I was somewhere around the middle of page 86 in the Cognitive Dissonance thread when the drugs began to take hold.

only only only only only only
Fun fact you can use a dps LB, cancel it, wait for hallowed ground to time out, then use it.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


Sacro posted:

Fun fact you can use a dps LB, cancel it, wait for hallowed ground to time out, then use it.

And you only lose eight seconds of uptime!

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

8 seconds for the entire party is a small price to play for trolling a tank

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008

Arist posted:

And you only lose eight seconds of uptime!

Yeah there's no way that an LB3 is worth 8 seconds of raidwide dps.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


I don't actually know enough about LBs to know if that's sarcasm lmao

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

Arist posted:

I don't actually know enough about LBs to know if that's sarcasm lmao

A melee LB3 is 9000 potency. Lets say 8s is 4 gcds that are interrupted, thats an average of 281.5 potency per person per gcd.

So, no. Not good.

Cirina
Feb 15, 2013

Operation complete.
I checked the clip, and it's 10 seconds of uptime actually! Even worse!

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


Jeez, I use MCH for my high end content these days, I can probably cover two people for that in the right circumstances

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

Arist posted:

Jeez, I use MCH for my high end content these days, I can probably cover two people for that in the right circumstances

Strictly speaking you can't compare potency directly across classes like I just did but yeah its bad.

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008

hobbesmaster posted:

A melee LB3 is 9000 potency. Lets say 8s is 4 gcds that are interrupted, thats an average of 281.5 potency per person per gcd.

So, no. Not good.

Well that's not entirely accurate, since I'm pretty sure LB damage is calculated based on the entire party's stats. You'd have to compare raw damage. My party's total dps last night was ~81,000, so the LB3 would have to do 810,000 to break even. I don't think LBs can get that high yet.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

Hmmm, point. Looking at my last e8s clear the melee lb3 was 733k so thats somewhat closer than I would've initially thought.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


My completely unscientific maximum potency MCH can possibly fit into eight seconds ignoring raid buffs (the last three or so Heat Blasts of a Hypercharge (240x3 so 720) + Wildfire (six hits with 200 per hit, 1200) used before the invuln would have started, plus five uses of Gauss Barrel/Ricochet (750), plus Reassembled Drill (critical direct hit 700, which we'll just round up to 1000?), plus Air Anchor (700), plus Queen's punches and Pile Bunker (let's say just used at 50 battery so around 800 potency if we assume three punches get blocked), based on some sketchy math I did in my head, resulted in a little under 5000 potency. So yeah.

Making it 10 seconds probably adds at least another punch, another Heat Blast, and another Gauss Barrel or Ricochet, which would be about 540 potency.

Man, MCH's burst windows are loving nuts lmao

Arist fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Aug 17, 2020

erenoyo
Jun 30, 2019

by Fluffdaddy
The "Elidibus is a child" theory doesn't really convince me for one reason: why would a sitting member of the council of leadership for their society be a child? I think people are just reading too much into that he appeared small at the end. He never acts childish -- his black and white worldview is a result of him being a primal, not a kid

Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011


I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna!!!

Adults can also spend too much time inside, trust me, I do it all the time.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

erenoyo posted:

The "Elidibus is a child" theory doesn't really convince me for one reason: why would a sitting member of the council of leadership for their society be a child? I think people are just reading too much into that he appeared small at the end. He never acts childish -- his black and white worldview is a result of him being a primal, not a kid

In that interpretation hes not the sitting member of a council, hes the voice of a primal. Emet Selch was the last Amaurotian.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011
It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

erenoyo posted:

The "Elidibus is a child" theory doesn't really convince me for one reason: why would a sitting member of the council of leadership for their society be a child? I think people are just reading too much into that he appeared small at the end. He never acts childish -- his black and white worldview is a result of him being a primal, not a kid

He constantly acts childishly, his PoV is always smaller and lower than the Ascians in his flashbacks, he very clearly is played more vulnerable in the very end, and every single Ascian is a FFXII reference. In this case Zodiark is kept as a child to limit his power, and in this his heart is Elidibus, a child. And there's the whole "Went out of his way to save a child in over his head from the 13th". There's a lot of references that imply that yeah, he was probably a child. The degree to which that matters ten thousand years later and after being a Primal is up for grabs, but odds are we murdered a 10 year old.

Vermain
Sep 5, 2006



erenoyo posted:

The "Elidibus is a child" theory doesn't really convince me for one reason: why would a sitting member of the council of leadership for their society be a child?

It's stated that one of the Convocation members resigned prior to the summoning of Zodiark, which could have well been the former Elidibus. The current Elidibus was thus picked because of the necessity of having someone innocent of outside desires, as the temperament of Zodiark would be directly affected by whoever performed the summoning.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Mulva posted:

He constantly acts childishly, his PoV is always smaller and lower than the Ascians in his flashbacks, he very clearly is played more vulnerable in the very end, and every single Ascian is a FFXII reference. In this case Zodiark is kept as a child to limit his power, and in this his heart is Elidibus, a child. And there's the whole "Went out of his way to save a child in over his head from the 13th". There's a lot of references that imply that yeah, he was probably a child. The degree to which that matters ten thousand years later and after being a Primal is up for grabs, but odds are we murdered a 10 year old.

Considering that he was the Emissary before he was the hart of Zodiark, I'm guessing 'Emissary' was a position of spiritual leadership among the Amaurotines, and it's not unknown for religious leaders to be young if not children when they're perceived to be special and enlightened.

Likewise, Elidibus implies that Emet-Selch's title of 'the Architect' was more a reference to building nations than to building physical structures.

Azem, the WoL, seems to have been the Convocation's very own murderhobo.

Vermain posted:

It's stated that one of the Convocation members resigned prior to the summoning of Zodiark, which could have well been the former Elidibus. The current Elidibus was thus picked because of the necessity of having someone innocent of outside desires, as the temperament of Zodiark would be directly affected by whoever performed the summoning.

That was Azem. The Hydaelen folks split off from the Amaurotines only after Zodiark was summoned, but Azem resigned her post and left before Zodiark was even summoned due to her objecting to the plan.

Vermain
Sep 5, 2006



Cythereal posted:

That was Azem. The Hydaelen folks split off from the Amaurotines only after Zodiark was summoned, but Azem resigned her post and left before Zodiark was even summoned due to her objecting to the plan.

You're right, my bad. I thought Hythlodaeus had said they'd always been separate from the Convocation, but I rechecked his dialogue and Azem did indeed split ways pre-Zodiark.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


Oh, was Azem explicitly female even if your WoL is male? I play a catgirl so I figured they changed the gender based on your own.

Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011


I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna!!!

No, I think it matches your WoL.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk
College Slice
There's definitely some weird trigger for when he'll use hallowed. It isn't every time you LB. I've heard people say it will only happen when he has a castbar active

e: in that clip he didn't though

I have no loving clue lol. He does it sometimes and doesn't do it others

cheetah7071 fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Aug 17, 2020

Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009

Waffleman_ posted:

No, I think it matches your WoL.

It does.

Jetrauben
Sep 7, 2011
angered the evil eye lately

Cythereal posted:

Considering that he was the Emissary before he was the hart of Zodiark, I'm guessing 'Emissary' was a position of spiritual leadership among the Amaurotines, and it's not unknown for religious leaders to be young if not children when they're perceived to be special and enlightened.

Likewise, Elidibus implies that Emet-Selch's title of 'the Architect' was more a reference to building nations than to building physical structures.

Azem, the WoL, seems to have been the Convocation's very own murderhobo.


That was Azem. The Hydaelen folks split off from the Amaurotines only after Zodiark was summoned, but Azem resigned her post and left before Zodiark was even summoned due to her objecting to the plan.

And in his defense, Elidibus was an extremely dedicated leader, and the Convocation members do mention people doubted his abilities at first.

It's also worth considering that creation magic - and primals - come from the mind of those who create them. Zodiark was an impossibly vast ask as creations go, presumably without any precursor in their bank of ideal concepts. Who can better envision a wondrous savior who fixes everything and restores the world "back to normal" without considering disastrous concepts and side effects than the simple, creative imagination of a child?

In a world where the ability to create life and substance comes directly from imagination and philosophical concepts, a child's imagination is a unique asset.

Its Rinaldo
Aug 13, 2010

CODS BINCH

erenoyo posted:

The "Elidibus is a child" theory doesn't really convince me for one reason: why would a sitting member of the council of leadership for their society be a child? I think people are just reading too much into that he appeared small at the end. He never acts childish -- his black and white worldview is a result of him being a primal, not a kid

Alphinaud

Its Rinaldo fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Aug 17, 2020

Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011


I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna!!!

Alphinaud is a primal....

CharlieFoxtrot
Mar 27, 2007

organize digital employees



Yeah I think painting the Elidibus theory as "punching a baby" isn't really in good faith, I can imagine him being a precocious teen, which if you look at the history of FF protagonists... would not be out of place at all.

And I know there were people complaining about "ugh why are we starting off this patch with more fetch quests, dumb delivery filler AGAIN" but it is a solid writing plant to start this chapter off by encountering kids who are imagining how they would save the world

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Its Rinaldo
Aug 13, 2010

CODS BINCH
If you don't like Mini Y'shtola I'll fight you right now

Just look at her!!!



All shall love her and despair

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