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Classon Ave. Robot posted:If Trump wins it'll probably be another 10 years before Americans have any kind of reasonable healthcare system, if Biden wins they very well may never. Your commitment committed to Trump's reelection in 2020 is impressive! Do you post the same accelerationist bullshit in every thread for any reason other than unironic support for Trump?
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Aug 17, 2020 18:10
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I really don't see any path forward for progressive politics in America if Biden is elected. He openly opposes medicare for all and any attempt to make it affordable or available to poor people. If the liberals are appeased by having a guy in the white house who doesn't say stupid things on twitter then there will be no room left for progressive candidates at all. Trump will do the same things Biden would, but he would keep people angry enough that positive change remains possible. I've never actually heard a convincing argument that this is not the case, but if you'd like to present one I'm listening. e: I honestly don't see how an even more conservative version of the Obama presidency is ever going to get health care for Americans. Trump is Obama's only legacy, and the legacy of a Biden presidency would be much much worse. Classon Ave. Robot fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Aug 17, 2020 |
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Aug 17, 2020 18:50
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twice burned ice posted:Your commitment committed to Trump's reelection in 2020 is impressive! Do you post the same accelerationist bullshit in every thread for any reason other than unironic support for Trump? I know the dumb trend among libs is to redefine 'accelerationist' to include anyone who looks at the centrist track record and identifies them as a barrier to their goals, but can you at least pretend you're better than a daily kos reply guy? Show your work. Explain how my saying "Biden will not push forward m4a, I have a better chance of getting a pro m4a president before 2028 if his admin is not in power from 2020-2028" is accelerationist. Also explain why your saying "Trump will not pick a liberal Supreme Court Justice, I have a better chance of getting a liberal SCOTUS pick before 2024 if his admin is not in office from 2020-2024" isn't the exact same, you dirty accelerationist. Coolness Averted fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Aug 17, 2020 |
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Aug 17, 2020 19:13
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Like fair enough, maybe the dude you're replying to chants 'trump trump trump' in every thread, but that's irrelevant to the 100% cogent argument "I think the dude who has said he will veto m4a will keep m4a off the table as long as he's president"
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Aug 17, 2020 19:17
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:I really don't see any path forward for progressive politics in America if Biden is elected. He openly opposes medicare for all and any attempt to make it affordable or available to poor people. If the liberals are appeased by having a guy in the white house who doesn't say stupid things on twitter then there will be no room left for progressive candidates at all. Trump will do the same things Biden would, but he would keep people angry enough that positive change remains possible. I've never actually heard a convincing argument that this is not the case, but if you'd like to present one I'm listening. Step 1: Keep a fascist in power Step 2: ??? Step 3: Leftist agenda realized. Step 2 is where folks seem to get hung up. While Trump certainly gets people upset, he also has largely unchecked political power and can actively make things worse in many areas, which he has. There's basically no world in which a continued Trump presidency makes a leftist agenda easier to implement. The whole thing hinges on the mushy part in the middle about how he'll somehow make people angry and the Revolution comes, which never gets any more detail than that. This same argument was made early on in Trumps time in office, and that resulted in Biden, essentially an 80's republican, looking good compared to him to most voters. The idea that somehow step 2 is "actually leftism makes huge gains and sweeps into power" is largely a fantasy. You're just going to normalize farther right Democrats. As for Obama's only legacy, that's clearly the ACA, which helped a poo poo-ton of people even if it's not remotely as good as single payer or any sort of real healthcare system. And that's a lot more pertinent to this thread than this election BS.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:53
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Obamas' legacy is his refusal to even consider single payer, and being bought out by the the same billionaires that are funding Biden now.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:12
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Jaxyon posted:Step 1: Keep a fascist in power While there's certainly room for disagreement, there are several easily understandable rationales for this. The biggest and most obvious are: - Historically there's a much higher chances of parties switching after 2 term presidents, particularly if the economy is bad (which it definitely will be in 2024), and there's also an extremely low chance of somehow switching Democratic candidates after 4 years of Biden; either Biden (or more likely Harris) will be the nominee, or Trump will win. So Trump serving another term means that there will at least be an opportunity to elect a decent president in 2024, while there's an almost zero chance of it being possible if Biden is elected. - The incumbent tends to result in downballot losses during midterms. This happened heavily under Obama, and there's no reason to think it won't be at least as bad under Biden. So there's good reason to believe that it's likely that electing Biden will result in a worse Congress from 2022 onward These two things certainly aren't any sort of proof that electing Biden would be worse for the left, and there are pros and cons in both cases, but it's definitely plausible that electing Biden could end up worse overall. I personally don't think there's an opportunity for the left in either of these situations. Both end in power being consolidated against the left.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:13
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The US political system is fundamentally broken, as you can see for example in how the DNC and Obama fixed the primary against Medicare for All. It will take a complete dismantling of the political establishment, in both parties, to achieve any real change.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:17
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Ytlaya posted:While there's certainly room for disagreement, there are several easily understandable rationales for this. The biggest and most obvious are: I'm aware of the rationale for a party switch after a 2 term, I'm saying that assuming it ends up with a more leftist administration is a bit of magical thinking. Especially since a strong election for the Republicans in 2020 means another entire decade of gerrymandering and 4 more years to dismantle voting. doverhog posted:The US political system is fundamentally broken, as you can see for example in how the DNC and Obama fixed the primary against Medicare for All. It will take a complete dismantling of the political establishment, in both parties, to achieve any real change. Yeah, I'm fine, burn it to the ground. I just don't get how giving Trump more power gets one there. He may burn it to the ground but it won't be in our favor and a lot of people will die, moreso even than now.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:18
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“Heh, if you were a little more sophisticated, you’d realize this was Good, Actually. The Contradictions Have Been Heightened You See, furthermore,” I say as Trump defunds medicare in 2021.
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Aug 18, 2020 10:55
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I didn't say vote Trump, just that Biden is not going to do much improve things even if he wins. He literally can't, because he's a puppet of the same people that owned Obama and made the last health care reform a handout to the insurance industry.
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Aug 18, 2020 11:49
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Still Dismal posted:“Heh, if you were a little more sophisticated, you’d realize this was Good, Actually. The Contradictions Have Been Heightened You See, furthermore,” I say as Trump defunds medicare in 2021. I don't understand how someone could pretend like they precisely know how the next 4-8 years of American politics would unfold under various hypothetical scenarios to be able to inform their utility calculus. It's a huge amount of speculation. It makes sense to me to just vote for the lesser evil, but I don't have a genius C-SPAM political brain. I guess if you live in a solidly blue state like CA or NY, your vote doesn't matter anyway, and voting third party probably won't make Trump win the election. Of course, that goes both ways--it also means that your third party vote won't really send much of a message to the Democratic Party Establishment. In reality, the political wisdom of the NoJoe King-Killing Super-Spreaders doesn't really matter anyway. They are a pretty small minority of the American public, and IMO the C-SPAM vote really isn't any sort of bellweather for how normal Americans would vote in the Presidential election. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Aug 18, 2020 |
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Aug 18, 2020 12:09
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doverhog posted:I didn't say vote Trump, just that Biden is not going to do much improve things even if he wins. He literally can't, because he's a puppet of the same people that owned Obama and made the last health care reform a handout to the insurance industry. Yeah the prospects don't look god for Biden doing much on healthcare and people will die. I just don't see how trump getting a second term makes change more likely.
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Aug 18, 2020 23:23
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Is there anything going on with uhc wise in the US that isn't m4a? I've only seen medicare for all mentioned but I only read a few threads. Personally I have no complaints so far about our (Dutch) multi payer system with decentralized providers. Which might be a easier leap from the current US system?
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Aug 19, 2020 00:38
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AlexanderCA posted:Is there anything going on with uhc wise in the US that isn't m4a? I've only seen medicare for all mentioned but I only read a few threads. The reason the US talks about single-payer is that it's the most likely way it gets done here. While pretty much nothing is currently viable depending on how cynical you are, the US currently has 4 different single payer systems already in place. Medicare(olds), Medicaid(poors), VA(veterans), and Tricare(soldiers). Medicare, in particular, is literally based on the Canada's single payer system. A system like Germany's, for instance, with private mandated non-profit but highly regulated providers, is probably even less likely than a massive expansion of the existing well-loved Medicare program. Nobody is seriously talking about any systems that aren't as simply explained as "we expand the program that everyone gets when they get old", because the state of healthcare discussion in the US is incredibly bad. The vast majority of people have no idea how healthcare works in any other country other than the vague idea that the US system, while lovely, is still the best option. That's slowly changing, and the US system is so bad that just outright saying M4A is popular, but nobody is trying to say "what about if we make all the private insurers non-profit and regulated out the rear end".
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Aug 19, 2020 01:29
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Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.
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Aug 19, 2020 08:07
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Jaxyon posted:the US system, while lovely, is still the best option small critique-basically no one believes this but grandparents and hardcore chuds.
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Aug 19, 2020 08:16
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:small critique-basically no one believes this but grandparents and hardcore chuds. No, plenty of liberal boomers believe it too. Or at least believe it's the best system for the US/those actual good systems wouldn't work here for reasons. Things are changing for the better when it comes to public opinion, but canvassing for m4a has almost as many soul crushing moments as ones that steel your resolve.
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Aug 19, 2020 08:23
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Yeah american exceptionalism is particularly powerful in healthcare, where it is least plausible. I do worry that even if a M4A bill was passed it would be deliberately hosed with sufficiently that it does actually fail. But the perfect is the enemy of the good etc.
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Aug 19, 2020 10:22
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It's American exceptionalism to think that only Americans think their country is exceptional. There's a large normalcy bias so you assume your gov is doing the right thing otherwise "they wouldn't let them do that" Not everyone mind you, some populations seem well aware of how lovely their governments are. I can't speak for the North Koreans, wouldn't surprise me if they still had people telling them it was childish to not vote just cause the option is bad and their grandads fought to get them the right to vote.
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Aug 19, 2020 13:22
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:small critique-basically no one believes this but grandparents and hardcore chuds. hahah I wish
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Aug 19, 2020 22:55
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Communist Thoughts posted:It's American exceptionalism to think that only Americans think their country is exceptional. I dunno, man. Every poster I read here that is visiting/has visited this country always posts the same poo poo: That they are astonished or at least taken aback with how many flags we insist on flying and the crap we slap on our vehicles. To tell you the truth, I find myself creeped out by my instinctual sense of dislike and mistrust of pretty much anyone brandishing red white and blue loving anything these days. Feels like I'm at war with my own country and it bugs me to be reminded that that is pretty much true. But, hey, I didn't start the fire.
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Aug 20, 2020 00:46
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I've been to a few countries outside the US at this point and yeah the US is highly and concerningly nationalist.
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Aug 20, 2020 00:50
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BiggerBoat posted:I dunno, man. It's hard to be proud of this country, that's for sure. Most of the rest of the world figured out certain things decades ago (case in point: universal health care of various types) that we still consider "pie in the sky" here in the "Greatest Country In The World (tm)".
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Aug 20, 2020 01:18
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I have complicated thoughts on patriotism. I think patriotism in the sense of some kind of communal responsibility for and obligation to your fellow citizens, a sense that you are all part of some greater whole, is in many cases good, and is probably necessary for things like robust welfare states to work, both practically and politically. But there's definitely a shallow and cruel patriotism that manifests in idolatry of national symbols and hatred of the outgroup.
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Aug 20, 2020 01:28
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Yeah that's called nationalism that's what the US does its part of fascism
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Aug 20, 2020 01:35
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Communist Thoughts posted:It's American exceptionalism to think that only Americans think their country is exceptional. Oh yeah, I'm acutely aware of that, it's the cornerstone of the self-immolation happening in the UK (as I know you know). It is particularly acute in the US though. I don't live in the States, but doing US-based medical research for a US company I do find that lots of people are simply unaware of what is happening globally, even in their own field at a global company. And of course this is a thread specifically about US healthcare.
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Aug 20, 2020 08:56
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knox_harrington posted:It is particularly acute in the US though. I don't live in the States, but doing US-based medical research for a US company I do find that lots of people are simply unaware of what is happening globally, even in their own field at a global company. To revive this dead healthcare thread that always dies because it strays from interesting/hard policy discussions, tell us more about your work in Switzerland and US vs. Ex-US dynamics. Basel is lovely 
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Aug 24, 2020 04:34
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Still Dismal posted:I have complicated thoughts on patriotism. I think patriotism in the sense of some kind of communal responsibility for and obligation to your fellow citizens, a sense that you are all part of some greater whole, is in many cases good, and is probably necessary for things like robust welfare states to work, both practically and politically. But there's definitely a shallow and cruel patriotism that manifests in idolatry of national symbols and hatred of the outgroup.
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Aug 29, 2020 14:04
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:as far as i know, the american left's refusal to embrace basic patriotism - like, just mentioning the word "america" in a positive context - is unique among electoral movements. it's also self defeating. turns out, voters like to hear about america and how it can be great. despite losing constantly for decades this left is too petty to try winning by articulating a complete vision for the country. instead it's ceded basic tools of electoral politics to conservative capitalists. what other country in the world is there where a display of the flag in any way, at least in urban and semi urban areas, is presumptively a conservative statement? Akshually, worship of flags or other nationalist symbols is extremely creepy and fooling around with that outside of ~ironic~ outlets like international sport events is extremely frowned upon and usually a sign of a supremacists worldview around here in Germany, op
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Aug 29, 2020 15:40
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trying to think of why germany is not a representative example. it'll come to me eventually! do leftists ever display german flags though? if you see a german flag sticker on a car, is it practically certain that person is a weird AfD conservative?
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Aug 29, 2020 15:45
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:trying to think of why germany is not a representative example. it'll come to me eventually! German handling of flag/symbol worship is pretty cool and nice and a good example of how to handle nation scale tribalism. Something to emulate for other countries, not some historic oddity, htbh Yes, the left/progressives never use the German flag as a symbol. It is exclusively reserved to the right/nativists. Nobody has a problem with it being used to represent the state or the nation as a whole. Just any kind of personal/private display of it is seen as a political statement of nativism/nationalism. It's a tribal display, stating there is an in an out group and you want to separate them
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Aug 29, 2020 16:35
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KingNastidon posted:To revive this dead healthcare thread that always dies because it strays from interesting/hard policy discussions, tell us more about your work in Switzerland and US vs. Ex-US dynamics. Basel is lovely Well, I might have several things to add to it in the near future since I got poo poo canned from my job Wednesday and my insurance runs out end of September. I have pain management issues (arthritis, bulging disc, sciatica), depression that I see a shrink for and a bunch of tests/scans being ordered to determine the cause of my rapid weight loss that my insurance company was denying at every turn. Even when I had private insurance through my job, it sucked and I was getting hosed on the regular. Not sure which one of those I should eliminate due to cost concerns but I suspect I'll have to chop at least one of them. Doubt I can afford COBRA. Fun times. So I got clipped from my job due to corporate downsizing/C19 related recession issues and now, just because of that, I am forced to decide which health issue I have doesn't require attention. Even if I land a job any time soon (and I have my doubts), usually the health coverage only kicks in after 90 days - assuming they even offer it. I can actually make a lot MORE money freelancing but not enough to offset these costs and, also, good luck with me refinancing my house or buying a car, both of which I've been looking at doing and will need to do soon. I won't be homeless or dead broke since I can sell the house and can still cash out what little there is in my IRA but it sucks anyway.
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Aug 29, 2020 16:52
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:as far as i know, the american left's refusal to embrace basic patriotism - like, just mentioning the word "america" in a positive context - is unique among electoral movements. it's also self defeating. turns out, voters like to hear about america and how it can be great. despite losing constantly for decades this left is too petty to try winning by articulating a complete vision for the country. instead it's ceded basic tools of electoral politics to conservative capitalists. what other country in the world is there where a display of the flag in any way, at least in urban and semi urban areas, is presumptively a conservative statement? nah this is a pretty common problem among the left in coloniser states, it's pretty awkward to get patriotic about a country with an evil past. other countries can go "remember when we threw off the shackles of those awful colonisers? this is like that!" whereas we can't
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Aug 30, 2020 16:29
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Communist Thoughts posted:nah this is a pretty common problem among the left in coloniser states, it's pretty awkward to get patriotic about a country with an evil past. Well, that, and the right has co-opted the U.S. Flag and every other symbol (see: The Bible) as litmus test for authoritarian and theocratic "patriotism". Every car or truck I see or person wearing a flag shirt or some poo poo I can usually, these days, safely assume is a giant loving rear end in a top hat. None of that helps left wingers with their "problem", assuming they even have one.
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Aug 30, 2020 22:15
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:as far as i know, the american left's refusal to embrace basic patriotism - like, just mentioning the word "america" in a positive context - is unique among electoral movements. it's also self defeating. turns out, voters like to hear about america and how it can be great. despite losing constantly for decades this left is too petty to try winning by articulating a complete vision for the country. instead it's ceded basic tools of electoral politics to conservative capitalists. what other country in the world is there where a display of the flag in any way, at least in urban and semi urban areas, is presumptively a conservative statement? Yes, clearly the reason the left isn't in power is because they did not mention America enough. This is basically the political version of someone saying "maybe the reason you're poor is that you didn't dress correctly" or something, except even worse because it's describing large-scale political movements where choice of rhetoric is around #467 on the list of "things that matter."
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Aug 30, 2020 22:41
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It's really hard to make an honest argument as to how or why America could be great, and the Left deals in facts. Rightists deal in authoritarian lies, the more brazen the better. That's why Trump is going to win, because the US is a country built on lies.
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Aug 30, 2020 22:46
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lol no it's not hard. nationalism is used by the american right because it's easy and effective. it's an incredibly powerful electoral tool, and especially in the american electoral system, which is structurally biased towards the rural vote, where nationalism is very, very deeply rooted. progressives are leaving votes on the table. buttigieg's campaign, for instance, had about zero substance, but he was ascendant largely because he waved the flag a bit. it's not that hard to do this while promoting democratic socialism, but the american left refuses to do this because they are such loving crybabies. it's a real dereliction of the leftist cause to not even try and go after nationalists by articulating your own vision for what america is supposed to mean. no poo poo this country has failed to live up to its mythos in fact, but the mythos is already pretty progressive - a fact that conservatives don't have to bellyache about much because no one is really bothering to challenge them on it anymore.
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Aug 31, 2020 15:26
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:buttigieg's campaign, for instance, had about zero substance, but he was ascendant largely because he waved the flag a bit. it's not that hard to do this while promoting democratic socialism, but the american left refuses to do this because they are such loving crybabies. Bernie liked patriotism and the American flag I thought? I think you might be projecting the AmeriKKKa posts on the SA political forums onto people who might actually have more of a chance of mattering politically.
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Aug 31, 2020 23:19
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silence_kit posted:Bernie liked patriotism and the American flag I thought? I think you might be projecting the AmeriKKKa posts on the SA political forums onto people who might actually have more of a chance of mattering politically. - bernie is the man but a loving terrible campaigner who just gave the same stump speech at every single event and refused to meaningfully criticize his opponents
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Sep 1, 2020 02:03
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