|
Who says the seat even existed before they decided to make zodiark? It could easily be "oh poo poo, we need someone who's really innocent drive this thing. Let's pick someone who's extremely naive (whether or not they're physically a child), tell them they have this new seat, and their duty is to do this"
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 21:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 14:57 |
|
|
Its Rinaldo posted:What I want is for Feo Ul to get really loving bored with being King and just constantly loving off to the Source to follow the WoL around making commentary filling in for Midgardsormr but jealous and Scottish Feo Ul, like Ryne is too cool to be left behind. Also I apologize if this has been brought up before, but I just found out about this thread, but the biggest disappointment for me with Shadowbringers is thus far being the warrior of darkness has meant nothing more than a linguistic trick of changing worlds. I really do still hope that it would be such a fundamental change that calling us a warrior of light anymore wouldn't work! Hell we even fight other WoL's though it's so bloodless it disappoints me too. We should've actually had to drat the heroes of other worlds to stop Elidibus. I don't know, I love the reveals of the ascians, but us being Azem is just kind of boring because thus far Azem is just us...we've always been the magical murder hobo maverick, instead of really adding anything as a reveal. Just that you were totally awesome and you are now totally awesome and everyone loves you.  It would've been cool if along with the reveal of the ascians we see that Hydaelyn's goals aren't our goals too. And that we will have to become something 'different' to resolve this.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 21:42
|
|
|
Eimi posted:Feo Ul, like Ryne is too cool to be left behind. The entire point of becoming the Warrior of Darkness was the reveal that "Dark" and "Light" mean different things to different people. You are a hero of light to some people but to the Ascians you are a horrifying destroyer who is killing their chance of reviving their lost people. Elidibus wasn't just playacting. He genuinely viewed himself as a hero and you as the villain. Becoming the Warrior of Darkness didn't mean Being Evil but having to stand against people who, in their own mind, are just as justified as you in what they do and who fight just as hard.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 21:47
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:The entire point of becoming the Warrior of Darkness was the reveal that "Dark" and "Light" mean different things to different people. You are a hero of light to some people but to the Ascians you are a horrifying destroyer who is killing their chance of reviving their lost people. Elidibus wasn't just playacting. He genuinely viewed himself as a hero and you as the villain. Becoming the Warrior of Darkness didn't mean Being Evil but having to stand against people who, in their own mind, are just as justified as you in what they do and who fight just as hard. This. If FF14 legitimately pulled 'Yer the baddie, WoL, look how grim and serious and adult we are!' I would have put the game down on the spot.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 21:50
|
|
|
Eimi posted:Feo Ul, like Ryne is too cool to be left behind. That's pretty much the implication from everything revealed so far though, Azem wasn't aligned to the Zodiark or Hydaelyn factions and probably wasn't onboard with the idea of the fracturing of the Source. Everything seems to be building towards moving past the need for artifically constructed godheads that rewrite the rules of creation and putting the ol' reigns of history back in the hands of man.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 21:53
|
|
|
I think it's pretty safe to say that our (we aren't Azem) and Hydaelyn's goals are aligned. She wanted to stop Zodiark and preserve life on the planet. We like the latter too. Until she heal-turns and starts munching on souls to stay alive, we're on the same team.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 21:56
|
|
|
multijoe posted:That's pretty much the implication from everything revealed so far though, Azem wasn't aligned to the Zodiark or Hydaelyn factions and probably wasn't onboard with the idea of the fracturing of the Source. Everything seems to be building towards moving past the need for artifically constructed godheads that rewrite the rules of creation and putting the ol' reigns of history back in the hands of man. Putting the reigns of history back in the hands of man, eh https://twitter.com/Dreamboum/status/1230918150465761280
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:00
|
|
|
Orcs and Ostriches posted:I think it's pretty safe to say that our (we aren't Azem) and Hydaelyn's goals are aligned. She wanted to stop Zodiark and preserve life on the planet. We like the latter too. Hydaelyn just initiated a different flavour of genocide instead, the Ascians have a pretty legitmate grieveance with her in that she *did* eradicate the near entireity of their civilisation and species. Both Primals were crude attempts to paper over whatever disasterous hole in reality caused the fall of Amaurot and which we know Azem/the WoL would have prefered to deal with with the aid of seven other likeminded comrades and a good music track. If the world is going to move on past the ancient feud between light and dark it only makes sense that both instigators of it have to step aside and let a new world be born.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:09
|
|
|
Orcs and Ostriches posted:Until she heal-turns and starts munching on souls to stay alive, we're on the same team. It turned out alright in the end, but isn't this essentially what she did with Minfilia?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:10
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:This. If FF14 legitimately pulled 'Yer the baddie, WoL, look how grim and serious and adult we are!' I would have put the game down on the spot. Going against Hydaelyn and other WoL wouldn't be that, it would be a continuation of humanizing the Ascians, just that our current antagonists would be those we would've viewed as heroic, instead of us understanding our current antagonists. I'm not asking for us to be evil, but rather for the title of warrior of light to no longer be something we would want to use or have applied to us, and for our power to be from something else. I want warrior of darkness to be meaningfully different from warrior of light and hell have that be our title going forward. Which it doesn't seem like it will be.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:12
|
|
|
I do not really understand the part of the FFXIV fandom that is expecting Hydaelyn to suddenly go "TIME FOR THE KILLING! BWA HA HA! SUCKERS!" any day now. I mean, yes, it is obvious that she has not and is not telling us everything. For example, her being a Primal and the disturbing implications that come from that, and I am sure we are going to explore that soon. But she had given no other indication of working against our own interests, cosmically speaking.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:16
|
|
|
Unlucky7 posted:I do not really understand the part of the FFXIV fandom that is expecting Hydaelyn to suddenly go "TIME FOR THE KILLING! BWA HA HA! SUCKERS!" any day now. Because Hydaelyn and Zodiark echo Altana and Promathia from FFXI, and Altana was just as evil as the evil god Promathia.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:17
|
|
|
Eimi posted:Because Hydaelyn and Zodiark echo Altana and Promathia from FFXI, and Altana was just as evil as the evil god Promathia. So you are expecting them to use the same plot twist twice?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:19
|
|
|
multijoe posted:If the world is going to move on past the ancient feud between light and dark it only makes sense that both instigators of it have to step aside and let a new world be born. That new world would be built on the corpse of the current ones. Or just left as the status quo. Eox posted:It turned out alright in the end, but isn't this essentially what she did with Minfilia? Eh, vaguely. Minfilia was used as Hydaelyn's voice, and later as a representative to stop the flood of Light. I guess she was a willing sacrifice one way or the other.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:20
|
|
|
Eimi posted:Because Hydaelyn and Zodiark echo Altana and Promathia from FFXI, and Altana was just as evil as the evil god Promathia. Neither Hydaelyn nor Zodiark are evil.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:21
|
|
|
My guess is that 6.0 will see the end of Zodiark, and as we head into 6.3, we realize that hey, we kinda gotta get rid of her as well for the balance and all that and it'll be bittersweet, but it won't be because she's secretly evil.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:21
|
|
|
Easy term of phrase, rather the XI plot was that Altana was jealous that Promathia was the god of creation, and so she imprisoned him and stole his powers. She used this to create the five main races as her children to worship her. Promathia tricks the Zilart into freeing him and creates the beast races in revenge against Altana, vowing to destroy her creation. So you're stuck in the war between them. Promathia is totally justified but if he wins, well you all die horribly. Altana is as it turns out a horrible rear end in a top hat and worshipping her isn't good either.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:24
|
|
|
Has Zodiark actually done anything yet? I get that the Ascian's are acting on behalf of him and the rejoinings/calamities are to rebuild him, but has he actually done anything?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:25
|
|
|
Unlucky7 posted:So you are expecting them to use the same plot twist twice? Hydaelyn has already killed untold millions of people, it was the very reason she was created. She's clearly not evil or malicious, but as Shadowbringers exhaustively established everyone is the hero of their own story and her good intentions dont change the fact that she eradicated the entire original civilisation of the Ascians in creating its reflections.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:25
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure his summoning was what he 'did', sucking up the souls of a lot of Amaurotians to appear. Also he did presumably stabilize whatever was happening before. Hydaelyn was what sundered the world.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:26
|
|
|
Unlucky7 posted:Has Zodiark actually done anything yet? I get that the Ascian's are acting on behalf of him and the rejoinings/calamities are to rebuild him, but has he actually done anything? Presumably phase 1 was complete, which was to rewrite the laws of existence to stop whatever was causing the end days for the ancients. Life was restored to the planet. They just never got around to sacrificing other creatures to return the Amaroutians.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:27
|
|
|
Unlucky7 posted:Has Zodiark actually done anything yet? I get that the Ascian's are acting on behalf of him and the rejoinings/calamities are to rebuild him, but has he actually done anything? Isn't the implication that without his heart, Elidibus, he's just an empty vessel lying around for any old Echo wielding war crazed psychopath to pick up and repurpose?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:28
|
|
|
The vast majority of the Amaurotines were killed in the catastrophe and as sacrifices for the summoning AND continued powering up of Zodiark. Hydaelyn was created in response to the idea that they would then sacrifice all the new life on the world to bring the previously sacrificed Amaurotines back to life - Venat's faction thought that was too far. The majority of Amaurot (pre-Zodiark) was already dead by the time Hydaelyn was summoned, the Sundering just made it impossible for Zodiark to serve the resurrection function.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:36
|
|
|
I was talking more about what if anything has Zodiark has done to us but in any case.multijoe posted:Hydaelyn has already killed untold millions of people, it was the very reason she was created. Orcs and Ostriches posted:Presumably phase 1 was complete, which was to rewrite the laws of existence to stop whatever was causing the end days for the ancients. Life was restored to the planet. I thought that Amarot was all but destroyed then Zodiark sucked up whatever was left. Hydaelyn did make the killing bow through the sundering, but it was arguably in service to the new life over an old civilization that is all but dead and gone. I mean yeah it sounds bad when you hear Emet Selch talk about it, but while he is probably not lying, like Hydaelyn herself, he is probably not telling us everything either. Unlucky7 fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Aug 18, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:36
|
|
|
Eimi posted:Easy term of phrase, rather the XI plot was that Altana was jealous that Promathia was the god of creation, and so she imprisoned him and stole his powers. She used this to create the five main races as her children to worship her. Promathia tricks the Zilart into freeing him and creates the beast races in revenge against Altana, vowing to destroy her creation. So you're stuck in the war between them. Promathia is totally justified but if he wins, well you all die horribly. Altana is as it turns out a horrible rear end in a top hat and worshipping her isn't good either. Is this accurate? It doesn't seem to have made into any of the easily-available references.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:39
|
|
|
Unlucky7 posted:I thought that Amarot was all but destroyed then Zodiark sucked up whatever was left. Hydaelyn did make the killing bow through the sundering, but it was arguably in service to the new life over an old civilization that is all but dead and gone. Zodiark probably hasn't done anything directly in a long time, being broken into a half dozen pieces and imprisoned and all that. There wouldn't have been a segment of the population trying to stop Zodiark and summon Hydaelyn if Zodiark wasn't already successful. He had to have at least stablized the world and brought some life back.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:40
|
|
|
Personally, I think there is more we do not know about Hydaelyn and Zodiark that would color things in for both, and I am willing to wait and see. Like I said, there is going to be a big reckoning about Hydaelyn being a primal, I think.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 22:55
|
|
|
So wait - Venat and Fandaniel are two different ascians, right? Or are they the same? We saw Venat in 5.2 and Fandaniel in 5.3, but I thought they were both using the Asahi body?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 23:02
|
|
|
There was a period of time when the amaurotines lived alongside "lesser", but still pre-sundering, beings. The Zodiark faction wanted to genocide the lesser beings to resurrect the dead amaurotines, and the Hydaelyn faction wanted to, and succeeded in, genociding the remaining Amaurotines to save the lesser beings. Azem did not align with either faction and they're honestly both kind of reprehensible compared to the hypothetical third path of just not genociding anyone I don't know if it will happen, but I could easily see a scenario where Hydaelyn has been suppressing knowledge of a non-cataclysmic way to stitch the world back together because her goal is to stop Zodiark, not to ensure the best outcome for the world.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 23:04
|
|
|
Unlucky7 posted:Personally, I think there is more we do not know about Hydaelyn and Zodiark that would color things in for both, and I am willing to wait and see. Like I said, there is going to be a big reckoning about Hydaelyn being a primal, I think. Fair, I'd just be surprised if she made it out of the finale alive, especially when she'd make such a good final capstone fight in 6.3 assuming we fight Zodiark at the end of 6.0. No Dignity fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Aug 18, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 23:04
|
|
|
Imagine the version of Answers that'd play in the trial.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 23:05
|
|
Mordiceius posted:So wait - Venat and Fandaniel are two different ascians, right? Or are they the same? That was just people speculating at the time, there was never any actual indication that Venat was the one piloting asahi around.
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 23:07
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:So wait - Venat and Fandaniel are two different ascians, right? Or are they the same? We've never seen Venat outside of the records in Anyder showing the anti-Convocation getting ready to summon Hydaelen. Everyone was throwing around the theory that "Asahi" would turn out to be Venat since he seemed to be aligned against Zodiark (insofar as egging Zenos on to eat Him).
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 23:07
|
|
|
Hydaelyn is still better than Zodiark in the current status quo because Zodiark still wants to do some more genocides, and Hydaelyn was satisfied with just the one. I don't expect us to actually turn on her any time soon for that reason, even if we break off our alliance. Maybe once Zodiark is dead
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 23:08
|
|
|
Copycat Zero posted:We've never seen Venat outside of the records in Anyder showing the anti-Convocation getting ready to summon Hydaelen. Everyone was throwing around the theory that "Asahi" would turn out to be Venat since he seemed to be aligned against Zodiark (insofar as egging Zenos on to eat Him). Ah okay yeah, that's where I got confused. It was 5.1 when people assumed that the figure was Venat. I just went and re-watched those post-story scenes to remind myself what happens - 5.1 - Zenos watching the army annihilate opposition, complains about how easy it is. White-robed Ascian shows up, does not name himself, just claims to be "another dog without a master," and says he knows Zenos wants Zodiark. 5.2 - Zenos has dreams of the Final Days. White-robed Ascian is amazed and promises to tell him the story. It really does feel like with Elidibus dead, they're very much setting the stage for the game to go TTGL with Hydaelyn vs Zodiark.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 23:17
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:Hydaelyn is still better than Zodiark in the current status quo because Zodiark still wants There's no indication of this, and it's entirely possible that without a heart there is no such thing as a "Zodiark". Just a mass of undirected power. There's also never been a single moment that conveys anything that Zodiark has ever wanted or said. The Ascians wanted things, the Ascians used Zodiark as a means to get those things, we've never seen Zodiark's perspective. We've gotten to see the big crystal mom say some things, convey ideas, but Zodiark is and always has been a giant question mark.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 23:22
|
|
|
The Asahi = Venat was the dumbest loving theory this game full of fan theories ever had.Mulva posted:There's no indication of this, and it's entirely possible that without a heart there is no such thing as a "Zodiark". Just a mass of undirected power. There's also never been a single moment that conveys anything that Zodiark has ever wanted or said. The Ascians wanted things, the Ascians used Zodiark as a means to get those things, we've never seen Zodiark's perspective. We've gotten to see the big crystal mom say some things, convey ideas, but Zodiark is and always has been a giant question mark. That's the thing about primals - they want what the summoners wanted. Their entire raison d'être is to do what their summoners called them to do. They don't have a perspective other than what they were given. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Aug 18, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 23:22
|
|
|
I'm confused by the resurgence of people saying we arent actually connected to Azem at all...Wasn't that basically confirmed already?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 23:24
|
|
|
Our soul is a chunk of Azem's soul. (or 9 chunks of 14) That doesn't make us Azem, any more than it makes us Ardbert. Or the tens of thousands of other people who have presumably shared that soul. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Aug 18, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 23:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 14:57 |
|
|
yeah the WoL isn't literally Azem but the game hammers pretty hard that Azem's legacy is still important, in the 5.3 denouement they just have a character directly narrate that the past is an important part of who you are even if you can't remember it etc etc
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2020 23:33
|
|