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Oh yeah, obviously we aren't literally Azem but people seem to like deny any connection at all which was wild to me around the net.
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Aug 18, 2020 23:34
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for sure, sometimes people kind of veer too hard in the opposite direction with it. the whole "the paths you walked brought you here even if you cant remember them" stuff is even narrated over a cutscene of the WoL dropping Azem's jobstone and stopping to pick it back up which is not exactly subtle
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Aug 18, 2020 23:38
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Briefly appearing to Emet-Selch as Azem is pretty suggestive in itself too
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Aug 18, 2020 23:41
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I could see some people being annoyed at the idea that the WoL has no longer "earned" their accomplishments, because they were born special, but I think that's a misreading of the situation The only special benefits we've gotten from having a fragment of Azem's soul are the echo (which is a property of all sundered souls, seemingly) and we attuned to the Azem job stone remarkably quickly cheetah7071 fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 18, 2020 23:42
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cheetah7071 posted:I could see some people being annoyed at the idea that the WoL has no longer "earned" their accomplishments, because they were born special, but I think that's a misreading of the situation I mean as I've said before I think this whole framing of the situation doesn't quite work within the context of reincarnation. We are as much Azem as Ardbert. We have always been thus. There is no beginning of end, just changes from one incarnation to the next; continuity clearly exists in some subconscious form. No, the Warrior of Light is not a "Self-made" hero, but that's because self-made heroes, in the context of a reincarnation universe, don't really exist. And certainly don't when one considers the strong themes of legacy, picking up what was left to you by prior generations, etc. We've never been presented as just a self-made hero, and honestly the idea we're just Special Because - the "mightiest of your kind" - Of Will to Power isn't really any more egalitarian. cheetah7071 posted:Hydaelyn is still better than Zodiark in the current status quo because Zodiark still wants to do some more genocides, and Hydaelyn was satisfied with just the one. I don't expect us to actually turn on her any time soon for that reason, even if we break off our alliance. Maybe once Zodiark is dead Idk, I think assuming that Hydaelyn has some malignant desire of her own is questionable. She hasn't been wholly honest with us, but she hasn't really lied, either. We don't quite have a specific unbiased account of the original Sundering and what caused it. Hell, I'm not even sure I'd call the Sundering a genocide - from Emet's metaphor, it seems to me more like all the various younger life-forms spawned by the Amaurotines just got forked into multiple worlds unaware of the others. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Aug 18, 2020 |
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Aug 18, 2020 23:47
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No gods no primals no masters. The mothercrystal must face us and seven friends.
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Aug 18, 2020 23:57
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she needs to die in a regular dungeon so I can take my boy G'raha on the absolute choicest of jrpg adventures.
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Aug 18, 2020 23:59
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Jetrauben posted:Idk, I think assuming that Hydaelyn has some malignant desire of her own is questionable. She hasn't been wholly honest with us, but she hasn't really lied, either. We don't quite have a specific unbiased account of the original Sundering and what caused it. Hell, I'm not even sure I'd call the Sundering a genocide - from Emet's metaphor, it seems to me more like all the various younger life-forms spawned by the Amaurotines just got forked into multiple worlds unaware of the others. I'm assuming here that there were still a decent number of amaurotines left at the time of the sundering, who were then all forcibly sundered, other than Lahabrea and Emet-Selch. I guess some part of that assumption could be false, and expanding on exactly what happened during the struggle between Hydaelyn and Zodiark is an obvious place to go in the next expansion
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Aug 19, 2020 00:00
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SirSamVimes posted:No gods no primals no masters. The mothercrystal must face us and seven friends. When humanity stands strong and people reach out for each other, there's no need for gods.
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Aug 19, 2020 00:07
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cheetah7071 posted:I could see some people being annoyed at the idea that the WoL has no longer "earned" their accomplishments, because they were born special, but I think that's a misreading of the situation yeah I don't think the angle theyre going for is so much "the WoL was born special" as "the person they used to be was special to someone." all adventurers are following Azem's legacy, not just the WoL
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Aug 19, 2020 00:38
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The Asahi = Venat was the dumbest loving theory this game full of fan theories ever had. Just because it was it was wrong, doesn't mean it was 'the dumbest'. It had some interesting legs and wasn't completely out of nowhere. I assure you, I've heard dumber, I just don't internalize most of those. Ibram Gaunt posted:Oh yeah, obviously we aren't literally Azem but people seem to like deny any connection at all which was wild to me around the net. I feel like it's sort of a 'have your cake and eat it too' thing for some people. We are Azem when it works for their argument, theorycrafting, or image of the game, until they come to someone who has some issue with it, at which point it becomes 'obviously we aren't LITERALLY Azem and you were stupid for thinking that'.
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Aug 19, 2020 00:41
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Cleretic posted:Just because it was it was wrong, doesn't mean it was 'the dumbest'. It had some interesting legs and wasn't completely out of nowhere. I assure you, I've heard dumber, I just don't internalize most of those. There was nothing interesting about it, and it came from nowhere. Zenos obviously represents no good to the will, life, or health of the world or the beings on it. Anyone helping him is obviously against our and Hydaelyn's interests. Venat would not have sacrificed himself and his people just to turn around and help Zenos get his rocks off. They just name droped Venat in 5.2, and introduced a shadowy new character in the same patch.
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Aug 19, 2020 00:44
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:They just name droped Venat in 5.2, and introduced a shadowy new character in the same patch. It wasn't even the same patch -- "Asahi" showed up in the stinger of 5.1 and we didn't find out about Venat until the cutscene toward the end of 5.2. It was really just the grasping at straws (the "oh, the mysterious white-robed figure is okay with Zenos taking down Zodiark, he can't be part of the Ascians" thing I mentioned) and parallels that people drew to FFXII after the fact that informed the theory.
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Aug 19, 2020 00:50
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I could see us renouncing Hydaelyn or needing to reckon with her being a primal but i think it’ll be less “welp time to kill My god, now” and more of a forced hand scenario or something, if we do need to kill her. the game has repeatedly shown us how primals damage everything around them by existing im curious to see if she fits that same category
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Aug 19, 2020 02:29
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I'm betting that if we do have to kill Hydaelyn it'll be less of a "ha ha, crystal mom was actually evil the whole time" situation and more of a Terminator 2 style "I cannot self terminate" deal where once Zodiark gets yeeted, Hydaelyn no longer serves any purpose and needs the WoL to banish her with extreme prejudice so she doesn't suck up the aether making up reality just by existing
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Aug 19, 2020 02:50
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For all the lead-in we've been getting, the worst I figure is we get a Ramuh-style trial of worthiness. Even taking Shadowbringers into account, Hades gets mad during the fight because we break free with the Blessing of Light. Minfilia is effectively Hydaelyn's proxy in the expansion and her role was "grudgingly body-hopping to help stem the tide until she found a vessel that chose to be their own person in the fight and allowing herself to return to the Lifestream." The Mothercrystal seems like she'd be more than willing to grant the Final Blessing of Light to definitively defeat Zodiark.
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Aug 19, 2020 02:56
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The big takeaway I have from shadowbringers is that our character would always have tended toward heroics and hydaelyn is just enabling us rather than anything potentially nefarious, and that it just kinda happens we took the route of killing things mostly. Thinking back the neat thing is this part with azem and their tendency to travel and help people would have still lended itself to a crafting or gathering class, like they originally wanted to have you do in 1.0, since as mentioned in 5.3 you don't necessarily need to kill stuff to help people.
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Aug 19, 2020 03:39
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Imagining bringing a weaver into the Elidibus trial.
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Aug 19, 2020 03:52
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I really enjoy how Shadowbringers has sort of complicated what it means to be the "Warrior of Light" (or "Darkness"), in that it shows how a title like that, how idolizing single, individualist heroes can be destructive and can be used to manipulate people, but also how a genuinely good person who does a lot of good can inspire others to help their fellow people as well. It never falls into "actually the Warrior of Light is bad" or anything like that, just that nothing is ever so simple, not even heroism.
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Aug 19, 2020 03:57
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Waffleman_ posted:Imagining bringing a weaver into the Elidibus trial. Emet doesn't need to save me, I spent the entire first phase making a rope to pull my way back there anyway.
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Aug 19, 2020 04:15
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Cleretic posted:Emet doesn't need to save me, I spent the entire first phase making a rope to pull my way back there anyway. Tough titty, bruv. You got sassed back into existence by a certified Bad Bitch™.
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Aug 19, 2020 05:41
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Cleretic posted:Emet doesn't need to save me, I spent the entire first phase making a rope to pull my way back there anyway. are you honestly so mad about emet-selch that you are deciding the events of the game didn't actually happen
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Aug 19, 2020 06:00
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It's baffling at this point how long this grudge about a fictional character has lasted, all stemming from the fact that she found his mannerisms offputting from the start.
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Aug 19, 2020 06:09
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SirSamVimes posted:are you honestly so mad about emet-selch that you are deciding the events of the game didn't actually happen No, that post was called 'a joke'. You know, like one might make in response to the post that was being quoted. I can wish an event didn't happen and make jokes about it without actively denying the event's existence.
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Aug 19, 2020 06:11
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Doublestep posted:I could see us renouncing Hydaelyn or needing to reckon with her being a primal but i think it’ll be less “welp time to kill My god, now” and more of a forced hand scenario or something, if we do need to kill her. the game has repeatedly shown us how primals damage everything around them by existing im curious to see if she fits that same category It's complicated because, like, we've only ever known a world where Hydaelyn exists, and she also to be fair doesn't seem to really exist on the material plane? Like she seems to spend most of her time chilling in the aetherial sea, and if anything shoots energy into us to dunk on jerks even harder. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 19, 2020 06:14
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Cleretic posted:No, that post was called 'a joke'. You know, like one might make in response to the post that was being quoted. all of your posts are jokes tbf it's hard to tell them apart
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Aug 19, 2020 06:25
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Cleretic posted:No, that post was called 'a joke'. You know, like one might make in response to the post that was being quoted. I mean, you probably should've read the room before making it. You keep bringing it up and leaning into the schtick and frankly it's exhausting. After the initial typical internet argument stuff died down, nobody would care or pay any mind to your antipathy towards this one character if you didn't turn it into a thing and make it about you and your grudge on a semi-regular basis.
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Aug 19, 2020 07:01
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The most dangerous part of killing all primals including the ones that are the will of the planet is, well, that you're killing the will of the planet. Was Hydaelyn summoned to divide and restrain Zodiark because killing him outright would have brought the space aliens back? Possibly! Nobody knows! That makes it a bit of a pointless risk compared to just cleaning up the remaining Ascians. The second most dangerous part is that it means Gaius was on some level right and he's not dying so that we can have a bit where we realize he was more right than presumed. "For the world of man to mean anything, man must own the world."
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Aug 19, 2020 07:42
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Cleretic talks about Emet-Selch way less than you folks think she does. It’s tedious at this point. If you hate her posting, block her and move on with your life. You will be happier that way.
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Aug 19, 2020 08:18
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Ignore lists are for cowards.
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Aug 19, 2020 08:29
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Mister Olympus posted:The most dangerous part of killing all primals including the ones that are the will of the planet is, well, that you're killing the will of the planet. Was Hydaelyn summoned to divide and restrain Zodiark because killing him outright would have brought the space aliens back? Possibly! Nobody knows! That makes it a bit of a pointless risk compared to just cleaning up the remaining Ascians. I mean, middy and the dragons had no problem having a world that presumably didnt have its own will until omega showed up so the probable answer to what happens if we kill/unsummon them is "nothing much."
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Aug 19, 2020 13:12
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Yeah, primals aren't natural forces, they're summoned magical constructs shaped by the desires of their summoners. If Hydaelyn goes poof, it does no meaningful damage to anything except that it leaves the planet without its most powerful protector - and primals, given their immense aether drain, were never the most effective protectors anyway. Hydaelyn is definitely going to want to be destroyed once Zodiark is gone, and to fight us in order to make sure we can do her job once she's gone.
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Aug 19, 2020 13:18
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Darth Walrus posted:Yeah, primals aren't natural forces, they're summoned magical constructs shaped by the desires of their summoners. If Hydaelyn goes poof, it does no meaningful damage to anything except that it leaves the planet without its most powerful protector - and primals, given their immense aether drain, were never the most effective protectors anyway. Hydaelyn is definitely going to want to be destroyed once Zodiark is gone, and to fight us in order to make sure we can do her job once she's gone. While all this is true, it's also possible that over the literal thousands of years that have elapsed since Hydaelyn curbstomped Zodiark thirteen times, there might be what is essentially structural integrity issues from removing her. That's a lot of time for things to have incidentally grown to rely on Hydaelyn's existence not even as a savior or fuel source, but just as a Thing That Exists. Of course this is also true of Zodiark, but I always sort of assumed that wherever those two are in X-dimensional space, Hydaelyn is 'closer'. I don't feel like that'd actually be brought up as a during-storyline thing, but it could be a neat 'epilogue plot hook' that'd fuel further story arcs.
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Aug 19, 2020 14:08
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The problem with that idea is there's absolutely no evidence that hydealyn does much more that aid with the echo and sometimes give a blessing, and this is further supported by the fact that there's not much of anything historical that's directly linked to it. There's no real big myths or legends relating to her much outside of what we find on the first, which seems to relate all the way back to the sundering, and I cant even recall any myths relating to the echo. The biggest thing is that as a primal it can also just absorb aether from the surroundings but actively avoids doing it at more than a minimal level as we saw in heavensward, which much more strongly suggests that its continued existence would hurt the world rather than aid.
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Aug 19, 2020 16:31
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Mister Olympus posted:The most dangerous part of killing all primals including the ones that are the will of the planet is, well, that you're killing the will of the planet. Was Hydaelyn summoned to divide and restrain Zodiark because killing him outright would have brought the space aliens back? Possibly! Nobody knows! That makes it a bit of a pointless risk compared to just cleaning up the remaining Ascians. Please Yoko Taro, make the Machine Lifeforms the cause of the doom of Amaurot. It would entirely make up for how lame the quests have been so far.
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Aug 19, 2020 18:45
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pretty sure Anogg and Konogg got White Chlorination Syndrome from the factory... (We'll be fine because of the Blessing of Light or something)
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Aug 19, 2020 18:56
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Wait. If Nier: Automata is canon, that means my "everyone is Emil" theory could extend to the entirety of ffxiv. Hm, need to let this idea cook for a while.
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Aug 19, 2020 19:28
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I've already made peace that we're probably not going to get Iron Will/Hymir's Finger as a DRK weapon, but I'm gonna be real upset if tier 3 of the NieR raid doesn't have at least an Emil minion.
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Aug 19, 2020 19:45
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I wonder if it's intentional or a coincidence that the Ancients sound like adults in Charlie Brown cartoons.
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Aug 19, 2020 22:48
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:pretty sure Anogg and Konogg got White Chlorination Syndrome from the factory... I think the properly Yoko Taro way to handle that is to say nothing about our immunity. Don't even imply we have it.
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Aug 19, 2020 23:57
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