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Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

FunkyAl posted:

I think it's fair to say that it exists in a continuum of really racist stuff, by a lot of the same people and the same studio, but that the intent of these two films is very different. It is difficult to imagine what the intent of song of the south is, being a white adaptation of afro-american folklore, but i havent actually seen it.
I don't mean this as offense, but I think we're going to inevitably talk past each other on this point. Song of the South isn't obtuse in its view of Blackness through Uncle Remus as a character. The actual Briar Rabbit stuff in a vacuum is genuinely considered fine outside of the overallt thorniness of Harris's appropriation of black folklore. But I think that Song of the South has a clear view of Blacks that while not aggressive, sees them as naturally caretakers and workers. I think that combined with coming off the since censored racist imagery in Fantasia, its hard for me to swallow your read.

I also just don't think much thought went into Dumbo at all.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Aug 18, 2020

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FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.

Timeless Appeal posted:

I don't mean this as offense, but I think we're going to inevitably talk past each other on this point. Song of the South isn't obtuse in its view of Blackness through Uncle Remus as a character. The actual Briar Rabbit stuff in a vacuum is genuinely considered fine outside of the overallt thorniness of Harris's appropriation of black folklore. But I think that Song of the South has a clear view of Blacks that while not aggressive, sees them as naturally caretakers and workers. I think that combined with coming off the since censored racist imagery in Fantasia, its hard for me to swallow your lead.

There is stuff that exists, by all of these people working in different places for years, that is much more racist than even uncle Remus. At the same time, I don't think it's impossible for them to be making contradictory statements, or have conflicting beliefs. They're two different works.

quote:

I also just don't think much thought went into Dumbo at all.

Why?

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

FunkyAl posted:

There is stuff that exists, by all of these people working in different places for years, that is much more racist than even uncle Remus. At the same time, I don't think it's impossible for them to be making contradictory statements, or have conflicting beliefs. They're two different works.
I don't know man, I'm not really going to fully respond to this post because your last post was talking about how you have not seen Song of the South and blindly stated that we cannot infer any viewpoint on race which is silly, and now we're apparently talking with expertise on it? Death of the author is a lens to view art, it's not movie discussion law. You can absolutely use another text that gives an idealized version of life for Blacks in the South to inform your understanding of another text that includes Black or Black coded characters.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.

Timeless Appeal posted:

I don't know man, I'm not really going to fully respond to this post because your last post was talking about how you have not seen Song of the South and blindly stated that we cannot infer any viewpoint on race which is silly, and now we're apparently talking with expertise on it? Death of the author is a lens to view art, it's not movie discussion law. You can absolutely use another text that gives an idealized version of life for Blacks in the South to inform your understanding of another text that includes Black or Black coded characters.

That's not my point, my point is that we can infer viewpoint based on how the subjects in a film are depicted. And I'm not trying to talk about song of the south at all! I'm just pointing out what is in Dumbo.

And I am not trying to play down the contradiction either. I randomly googled "Scrub me mama with a boogie beat," Which is a cartoon written by the inventor of bugs bunny that is black stereotypes being lazy and eating melons as the brunt of the humor. But this isn't how it's depicted in Dumbo, at least in the scene we're talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P75mur1xF7U Watch and judge for yourself I guess

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink

FunkyAl posted:

E: It's also like, an ironic counterpoint to singing mining dwarves

...huh.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.

So squidbillies voice actor Stuart Baker got fired for calling Dolly Parton a slut and letting his racist rear end in a top hat flag fly.

I keep wondering why these idiots think being a complete dick in public isn't going to bite them in the rear end.

Robindaybird fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Aug 19, 2020

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

FunkyAl posted:

That's not my point, my point is that we can infer viewpoint based on how the subjects in a film are depicted. And I'm not trying to talk about song of the south at all! I'm just pointing out what is in Dumbo.
I don't disagree with you, but contextualizing work is also a valid way to understand it. You're pointing to a musical sequence with inconsistent lyrics and muddled visuals at best (It's worth noting that Dumbo is ignorantly having fun, but the other elephants also go back and forth being strained by the work and smiling.) It's unclear if the song is genuinely from the workers' point of view. I'd argue despite singing the song, it's more about them. So, it's worth looking at the larger body of work from the studio and from the time.And yes, Song of the South gives hints to a view of Black nature and Black Labor that I think can help inform the scene although they don't offer 1:1 points of view.

And hell it shades some of the readings you're giving:

Uncle Remus posted:

The critters, they was closer to the folks, and the folks, they was closer to the critters, and if you'll excuse me for saying so, 'twas better all around.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Aug 19, 2020

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink

Timeless Appeal posted:

I don't disagree with you, but contextualizing work is also a valid way to understand it. You're pointing to a musical sequence with inconsistent lyrics and muddled visuals at best (It's worth noting that Dumbo is ignorantly having fun, but the other elephants also go back and forth being strained by the work and smiling.) It's unclear if the song is genuinely from the workers' point of view. I'd argue despite singing the song, it's more about them. So, it's worth looking at the larger body of work from the studio and from the time.

No one's arguing that Disney wasn't a racist man who ran a racist company, racistly, but if your going to talk about a specific sequence in a specific movie it helps to actually talk about it.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!





Robindaybird posted:


I keep wondering why these idiots think being a complete dick in public isn't going to bite them in the rear end.

Because they always have, until now.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.

Also going after Dolly Parton of all people was an especially poor idea.

Pigbuster
Sep 12, 2010

Fun Shoe

Robindaybird posted:

Also going after Dolly Parton of all people was an especially poor idea.

The only redneck I could imagine badmouthing her is one as lovely as Early Cuyler so drat if that wasn't appropriate voice casting.

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 12, 2015

by Cyrano4747

Pigbuster posted:

The only redneck I could imagine badmouthing her is one as lovely as Early Cuyler so drat if that wasn't appropriate voice casting.

Early Cuyler was based directly on Unknown Hinson's stage persona of "the worst, most hateful piece-of-poo poo redneck in human history."

It very clearly was not just a persona, in hindsight.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

Schwarzwald posted:

No one's arguing that Disney wasn't a racist man who ran a racist company, racistly, but if your going to talk about a specific sequence in a specific movie it helps to actually talk about it.
... I did man.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Robindaybird posted:

So squidbillies voice actor Stuart Baker got fired for calling Dolly Parton a slut and letting his racist rear end in a top hat flag fly.

I keep wondering why these idiots think being a complete dick in public isn't going to bite them in the rear end.

Because it turned out being an idiot who is a complete dick in public also can make you a billionaire or President of the United States

Space Cadet Omoly
Jan 15, 2014

~Groovy~


paradoxGentleman posted:

I feel like even if I was making an ironic song, I wouldn't put in such directly self-insulting lyrics like "We never learned to read or write", even if it was true, and especially not "We don't know when we get our pay, and when we do we blow our pay away"

I'm not necessarily defending the song writer here because I don't know their intent, but I really don't find those lyrics self-insulting so much as they are grim statements on reality.

People who can't read or write are frequently exploited and demeaned, and when you're living a life of poverty with an inconsistent income you're not going to be able to hold on to that money for long because you have a lot of expenses that need to be taken care of NOW. It's extremely expensive to be poor, you often literally can't afford to save up money because you need to buy clothes and food and medicine and a bunch of other stuff you've not been able to get since your last paycheck and you have no idea when your next paycheck is coming. People were forced to live that way in the past, and people are forced to live that way now.

Again, I have no idea if that's what the writer intended, but geez from my perspective "Roustabouts" is the bitterest and most cynical Disney song I've ever heard.

Barudak
May 7, 2007

Robindaybird posted:

Also going after Dolly Parton of all people was an especially poor idea.

This is the craziest part. If he just wanted to poo poo talk black people he might have gotten away with it because America is trash but dragging dolly parton into it brings in all the onlookers to crowd around to cheer on "gently caress him up, gently caress him up bad!!!"

ghost sex
May 19, 2013
the circus tent raising sequence was scary as poo poo to me as a kid and even today doesn't look or sound like it was meant to make you come away with good feelings. the imagery is completely at odds with a straight, sincere reading of the lyrics

not to defend dumbo's racial politics because lmfao. but that scene does seem to be trying to elicit sympathy rather than disparagement (while still being kind of demeaning in the way they went about it)

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink

Timeless Appeal posted:

... I did man.

Your remarks on how the "Happy Roundabout Workers" presents a hopeless situation were solid, but to claim the presentation of such malicious needs more than calling the segment unclear and instead gesturing at how some other Disney movies were racist.

Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Aug 19, 2020

Moon Atari
Dec 26, 2010

Robindaybird posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=Bz8l935Bv0Y&feature=emb_title

So Hades (Supergiant) dropped their trailer for the switch, and this is Studio Grackle's first animation project, I think we'll see some more cool stuff from them in the future based on this.

Seeing the Supergiant art style animated just reminds me of playing Pyre and thinking it would be wildly successful as an animated series, if only a western visual novel meets sports game would receive the same adaptation treatment Japanese visual novels often do.

paradoxGentleman
Dec 10, 2013

wheres the jester, I could do with some pointless nonsense right about now

Space Cadet Omoly posted:

I'm not necessarily defending the song writer here because I don't know their intent, but I really don't find those lyrics self-insulting so much as they are grim statements on reality.

People who can't read or write are frequently exploited and demeaned, and when you're living a life of poverty with an inconsistent income you're not going to be able to hold on to that money for long because you have a lot of expenses that need to be taken care of NOW. It's extremely expensive to be poor, you often literally can't afford to save up money because you need to buy clothes and food and medicine and a bunch of other stuff you've not been able to get since your last paycheck and you have no idea when your next paycheck is coming. People were forced to live that way in the past, and people are forced to live that way now.

Again, I have no idea if that's what the writer intended, but geez from my perspective "Roustabouts" is the bitterest and most cynical Disney song I've ever heard.

This is a good point that I hadn't considered. Thank you for sharing it.


Robindaybird posted:

Also going after Dolly Parton of all people was an especially poor idea.

Is she particularly litigious or something? I'm not familiar with her.

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Anime Deviant

paradoxGentleman posted:

Is she particularly litigious or something? I'm not familiar with her.
Nah, people just love Dolly because she's a big personality and very genuine and caring. Like part of her philosophy behind Dollywood was giving people great-rear end food like she used to eat at home . There's like whole buffet meals that coat $20.

Add to the fact that she's always been outspoken and unapologetic about who she is, along with a very full-throated support for BLM recently, and talking poo poo about her is about a good idea as dissing the Virgin Mary in Mexico City.

She also grew up dirt poor and hustled her rear end off to build her career.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
I've only recently really learned about her but everything I've heard has been great. Apparently she based her look and persona on the town hussy.

Inspector Gesicht
Oct 26, 2012

500 Zeus a body.


'"If you want the rainbow you've got to put up with the rain". Do you know which "philosopher" said that? Dolly Parton. And people say she's just a big pair of tits.'

Barudak
May 7, 2007

In addition to being a generally good person she also wrote and performed a whole bunch of classics like I will Always Love You, Workin 9 to 5, Ghetto Superstar, and she also wrote Jolene which if you've never listened just immediately stop reading this thread and go listen to it.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

Schwarzwald posted:

Your remarks on how the "Happy Roundabout Workers" presents a hopeless situation were solid, but to claim the presentation of such malicious needs more than calling the segment unclear and instead gesturing at how some other Disney movies were racist.
No, that's a mischaracterization.

I'm not just saying that it's unclear. It's unclear because someone were trying to present the scene as this universally brutal segment in which the workers can only be read as unhappy victims expressing their displeasure. That's not true. Dumbo is having fun. The other Elephants are sometimes laughing. The few animals who actually help, the camels are also not unhappy. It's unclear because the lyrics of the song are contradictory. But it is rainy and dark and there is a juxtaposition against the very childish train. I do understand how it can be viewed as an ironic song in which the the workers are in on the joke, but the self-depreciation betrays that a bit. The original reading was being way too selective.

And I'm not saying Song of the South is racist so this is racist. I'm saying that we can contextualize a film from 80 years ago in a larger body of work and the time. So when somebody is looking at it and says, "Well... they're clearly being ironic because who would be happy?" then we can look at this other movie the same studio made a few years later that is literally implying Blacks are happy with the state of slavery and reconstruction. That when we use comparisons between Blacks and animals to make our point we can look at this other movie that more directly makes that comparison between animals and humans. Because it informs us.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Aug 19, 2020

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.

FilthyImp posted:

Nah, people just love Dolly because she's a big personality and very genuine and caring. Like part of her philosophy behind Dollywood was giving people great-rear end food like she used to eat at home . There's like whole buffet meals that coat $20.

Add to the fact that she's always been outspoken and unapologetic about who she is, along with a very full-throated support for BLM recently, and talking poo poo about her is about a good idea as dissing the Virgin Mary in Mexico City.

She also grew up dirt poor and hustled her rear end off to build her career.

She created an international charity to donate books to poor children, gave I think roughly $10k to every family affected by the Tennessee fire a few years ago, and Dollywood brought a lot of jobs in an underserved area and has preserving some of the traditional arts and crafts of the region as part of it's theme.

And she has a reputation for being extremely nice and funny to work with while being incredibly business savvy - so yeah it's like insulting Mr. Rogers or the Virgin Mary.

Phylodox
Mar 30, 2006



College Slice
You don’t mess with Dolly, Fred, Bob, or Steve. That’s just common sense.

Inspector Gesicht
Oct 26, 2012

500 Zeus a body.


Bob and Steve who?

doomrider7
Nov 29, 2018

Inspector Gesicht posted:

Bob and Steve who?

Steve Irwin and Bob Ross.



Here's another good one.

doomrider7 fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Aug 19, 2020

Inspector Gesicht
Oct 26, 2012

500 Zeus a body.


I was born in Australia which entitles me to make as many tasteless stingray jokes as possible. Also Irish-Catholic which grants me the right to say this:

"How many potatoes does it take to kill an Irish person? Zero."

Would never insult St. Henson.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
Stan Lee was a mercenary capitalist jerk but still in a likeable way

At least we still have Weird Al

Supersonic Shine
Oct 13, 2012
Harry Partridge made a short about a monster hunter who hunts really lame monsters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2HtmYmU0vQ

I thought it was pretty charming, mostly because the Snapperchap's a fun little guy. I like that Dogtooth doesn't bother killing it.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.

Timeless Appeal posted:

No, that's a mischaracterization.

I'm not just saying that it's unclear. It's unclear because someone were trying to present the scene as this universally brutal segment in which the workers can only be read as unhappy victims expressing their displeasure. That's not true. Dumbo is having fun. The other Elephants are sometimes laughing. The few animals who actually help, the camels are also not unhappy. It's unclear because the lyrics of the song are contradictory. But it is rainy and dark and there is a juxtaposition against the very childish train. I do understand how it can be viewed as an ironic song in which the the workers are in on the joke, but the self-depreciation betrays that a bit. The original reading was being way too selective.

And I'm not saying Song of the South is racist so this is racist. I'm saying that we can contextualize a film from 80 years ago in a larger body of work and the time. So when somebody is looking at it and says, "Well... they're clearly being ironic because who would be happy?" then we can look at this other movie the same studio made a few years later that is literally implying Blacks are happy with the state of slavery and reconstruction. That when we use comparisons between Blacks and animals to make our point we can look at this other movie that more directly makes that comparison between animals and humans. Because it informs us.

You have a real point with the use of the comparison to animals because that's an undercurrent that pervades a lot of period "funny animal" material, including mickey mouse, bugs bunny, goofy, speedy gonzales bosko, etc. And it's true dumbo and his mother (sometimes) are smiling, but I take that as nievete and trying to be a good mom. My point is more that the production, the sound and editing, dramatic claps of lightning, is what is emphasizing feeling and meaning. They are explicitly juxtaposed with the elephants in the scene, but the elephants are also our points of empathy, something recognizably noble and human.

And despite being both "Disney" films, I'd argue Disney as "auteur" is far less present in Dumbo just due to the way both of these were made. Dumbo was a book that became a unique script written by two artists working at Disney's studio, whereas Song of the South was driven by Disney Himself, as a way to make animation cheap by filling it with live action. So yes, it's true that both were signed by a name whose original Song of the South was apparently too racist for 1940s film censorship boards, the stuff I'm talking about is the product of teams of artists who organized a labor strike during the production of their movie.





Walt Disney did not draw or animate this. Dumbo was directed by someone named Ben Sharpsteen. All Disney's drawings were stick figures with the words "sarcastic horse" and "manic mailman" printed on them.

Neon Noodle
Nov 11, 2016

there's nothing wrong here in montana

FunkyAl posted:

All Disney's drawings were stick figures with the words "sarcastic horse" and "manic mailman" printed on them.

rich uncle skeleton

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

FunkyAl posted:

You have a real point with the use of the comparison to animals because that's an undercurrent that pervades a lot of period "funny animal" material, including mickey mouse, bugs bunny, goofy, speedy gonzales bosko, etc. And it's true dumbo and his mother (sometimes) are smiling, but I take that as nievete and trying to be a good mom. My point is more that the production, the sound and editing, dramatic claps of lightning, is what is emphasizing feeling and meaning. They are explicitly juxtaposed with the elephants in the scene, but the elephants are also our points of empathy, something recognizably noble and human.
Look man, your original post was scolding for not judging what's on screen. I understand the images you posted as paintings evoke something very clear, but its not consistent as a film. Like your read on Dumbo as a slave parable doesn't prove your point about the song being ironic, it proves mine. Dumbo is a blissfully ignorant worker, only scared when faced with death, and wins by becoming the best slave. If Dumbo is in parallel with the Black workers than the song isn't ironic. Our main character literally is a happy hearted roustabout.

And a bunch of white artists comparing their relatively privileged positions to that of animals and black men is racist.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink

Timeless Appeal posted:

I'm not just saying that it's unclear. It's unclear because someone were trying to present the scene as this universally brutal segment in which the workers can only be read as unhappy victims expressing their displeasure. That's not true. Dumbo is having fun. The other Elephants are sometimes laughing. The few animals who actually help, the camels are also not unhappy. It's unclear because the lyrics of the song are contradictory. But it is rainy and dark and there is a juxtaposition against the very childish train. I do understand how it can be viewed as an ironic song in which the the workers are in on the joke, but the self-depreciation betrays that a bit. The original reading was being way too selective.

I agree, the segment has tons of tonal contradictions and its self-depreciating. That's the point. That's the reason why there's an argument that the scene should be taken ironically: on behalf of all the irony present during the scene.

Aces High
Mar 26, 2010

Nah! A little chocolate will do




I remember years ago (Jesus this was probably 09 or 08) this same point coming up in a different forum and while the points of it being racist were acknowledged there was another point made that the type of worker being described still exists today. Actually I think the conversation started that way by someone bringing up that there are lots of roustabouts working in the trades these days. The follow up regarding race stuff was kind of dismissed as "it can be anyone, it's a mindset" which is a pretty uninformed take, I feel

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.

Timeless Appeal posted:

Look man, your original post was scolding for not judging what's on screen. I understand the images you posted as paintings evoke something very clear, but its not consistent as a film. Like your read on Dumbo as a slave parable doesn't prove your point about the song being ironic, it proves mine. Dumbo is a blissfully ignorant worker, only scared when faced with death, and wins by becoming the best slave. If Dumbo is in parallel with the Black workers than the song isn't ironic. Our main character literally is a happy hearted roustabout.

And a bunch of white artists comparing their relatively privileged positions to that of animals and black men is racist.

I'm not trying to scold, I'm just pointing out what I think is there. He's ignorant because he was born yesterday. And I don't think the point of the ending is that he stays a slave either, he learns to fly, steals the show from and humiliates his ringmaster, joins the army, and signs a hollywood contract! And while armies and contracts are forms of slavery, he at least doesn't need the circus anymore. A little fantastical, less realistic than dumbo's continued struggles with alcoholism, but fine for kids.

And FWIW, animation at that point was pretty much sweatshop labor. The minorities, immigrants, and women who inked and painted this cartoon probably felt like they were getting worked hard.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.

Neon Noodle posted:

rich uncle skeleton

Disgruntled goat had his moments.

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Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

FunkyAl posted:

And FWIW, animation at that point was pretty much sweatshop labor. The minorities, immigrants, and women who inked and painted this cartoon probably felt like they were getting worked hard.
FWIW Disney didn't have Black animators until the 50s.

EDIT: Look, I'm not as salty as I seem because I think that there are actually interesting points that have come out of this. But you did imply I was ignoring what's depicted which was what I meant by scolding. It's fine for what you think is there, but I think both aspects of the film and context contradict this. And regardless the sentiment "But they're doing hard and awful work so that means they're not actually happy" is discounting historical sentiments about Black Labor that we can point to multiple examples of throughout history but are clearly alive in multiple Disney films.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Aug 20, 2020

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