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Dr. Baker
Jan 25, 2012

Numb me, drill me
Floss me, bill me
I brought it up because the jokes started making me uncomfortable and because I know this place is understanding of its members.
I feel better now after this discussion.
My intention was not to outlaw jokes. I also enjoy gallows humor.

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MotU
Mar 6, 2007

It was like she was evicting walking garbage.
Pillbug

yea ok posted:

There's no good answer for that. Personally, I'm not comfortable making jokes about things like rape, probably because I don't see a way to make it funny, even through dark humor. Why I'm able to curb that sentiment with something like Velveteen Dream jokes, I don't know. I guess it's like I said in my earlier post. I hated all the jokes about Adam Rose's kid, but there were others that clapped along. We all have our things we hate to even joke about. I don't mean to harp on that or even talk bad about MotU, it's just an example that springs to mind.

Regarding your edit, I do think the fact that Velveteen Dream is not only a television presence, but heavily pushed, makes it easier for people to comment on it in a comedic way.

Reading this made me feel a little bad about the jokes since they were surely in bad taste (the jokes were likely good as jokes though, structure wise) and I looked up Adam Rose expecting to see like real bad news and I did see real bad news and that's how Adam Rose looks now but his first son is still living which is pretty good, since his outlook was real bad

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 60 days!

NienNunb posted:

I think this is an issue that can, should, and hopefully will be resolved amicably without resorting to rule changes or mod buttons. I disagree harshly with the idea of banning certain topics for jokes, while also believing we should all try our bests personally to be respectful of our fellow posters' wishes. I think the incident with the hornyposting should have been resolved this way when people initially were asking kindly to slow it down and we obviously failed.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, and I do get the appeal of gallows humor/black humor as a means for people to process tragedies and other horrific events (obviously people were making 9/11 jokes on this very website fairly early after it happened, and more recently there's been people joking about things like WWE's association with Saudi Arabia even after it came out they murdered a journalist). I just don't feel that the jokes about Dream being a pedophile (and WWE continuing to employ/defend him) really fall into that category. It feels like they're more just "hey dudes check out this edgy joke I just made" kinda things. And I do think there is a weird sort of double standard where joking about pedophilia (even in terms of mocking the pedophile and/or the company that bizarrely continues to employ said pedophile) is somehow viewed as acceptable, while joking about adult-male-on-adult-female harassment is viewed as extremely off limits. And just so I'm clear, I'm not advocating that both topics should be joked about, but rather that neither is a topic worth joking about, because they both involve unwilling people being sexually harassed by a predator. We know WWE sucks and Velveteen Dream is a piece of poo poo, we don't need more jokes about grooming and such to remind us.

Critical
Aug 23, 2007

Sydney Bottocks posted:

I don't necessarily disagree with this, and I do get the appeal of gallows humor/black humor as a means for people to process tragedies and other horrific events (obviously people were making 9/11 jokes on this very website fairly early after it happened, and more recently there's been people joking about things like WWE's association with Saudi Arabia even after it came out they murdered a journalist). I just don't feel that the jokes about Dream being a pedophile (and WWE continuing to employ/defend him) really fall into that category. It feels like they're more just "hey dudes check out this edgy joke I just made" kinda things. And I do think there is a weird sort of double standard where joking about pedophilia (even in terms of mocking the pedophile and/or the company that bizarrely continues to employ said pedophile) is somehow viewed as acceptable, while joking about adult-male-on-adult-female harassment is viewed as extremely off limits. And just so I'm clear, I'm not advocating that both topics should be joked about, but rather that neither is a topic worth joking about, because they both involve unwilling people being sexually harassed by a predator. We know WWE sucks and Velveteen Dream is a piece of poo poo, we don't need more jokes about grooming and such to remind us.

I think the double standard here is due to "knowing your audience." Since you have to pay for an account there aren't going to be a lot of 12 year olds posting. People may subconsciously view those jokes as "safe" because they're not doing them in front of people who are potentially victims.

Whereas we know there are women posting here and the odds they have been subjected to creepy behavior at some point is incredibly high. We know these jokes hurt, because we've been told so by victims, so people stopped doing them.

Obviously we are a lot more cognizant about trauma now and there may very well be people here who have suffered the same things that are being joked about as a child. Some people joke about these things to face them head on and make them less powerful, and some people want to avoid them completely. And neither of those things are wrong. But all we can do as a community is listen when someone says "jokes about this topic are getting out of hand, maybe we should discuss it." It worked for the sexualized posting, and I think it will work in this situation as well.

Edit: Obviously a conversation is not necessary on everything. If someone came in and said "Golly I'm a huge HHH fan so can you please stop making The Asskicker jokes" they can kick rocks cause HHH being a dweeb is still hilarious.

Critical fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Aug 28, 2020

Shayna Baszler
Oct 24, 2001

i'll always take care of you
Muldoon
i think there should be a moderator with a sense of humor who can tell when a joke is funny or not. this mod would be able to tell when to probate someone for telling a bad joke, and when to reward someone for telling a good joke.

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

~*4 LIFE*~

Seth Rollins posted:

i think there should be a moderator with a sense of humor who can tell when a joke is funny or not. this mod would be able to tell when to probate someone for telling a bad joke, and when to reward someone for telling a good joke.

Give Cavauro buttons J-Ru you coward

Spiderdrake
May 12, 2001



Critical posted:

Edit: Obviously a conversation is not necessary on everything. If someone came in and said "Golly I'm a huge HHH fan so can you please stop making The Asskicker jokes" they can kick rocks cause HHH being a dweeb is still hilarious.
I think in general people should be less mean but more willing to converse. J-Ru shouldn't be so scared of people posting about posters. Like, if someone had legitimate grievances, let them air it, and if they have a habit of just being an rear end in a top hat then punish them.

Also I really want this huge HHH fan now. Would you really shut them down? He's such a loving dweeb the conversation would just be pages and pages of dunking on him. Like that time he tried to be cool and joined the Shield. And was somehow less cool doing it than Kurt Angle.

Rarity posted:

Give Cavauro buttons J-Ru you coward
He'll go mad with power immediately and just constantly probate himself. Every six hours, he will post, hate his post and use the buttons. Do not curse Cavauro with that.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN
Nearly every Speaking Out story was about man-on-woman or man-on-girl abuse that has largely been treated with the proper care and sensitivity, so the idea that Dream -- the only or at least most high-profile man-on-boy abuse story to come out so far -- is somehow fair play for cheap jokes feels very gross and borderline homophobic to me.

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008



stop the fucking fight, cornerman, your dude is fucking done and is about to be killed.

Benne posted:

Nearly every Speaking Out story was about man-on-woman or man-on-girl abuse that has largely been treated with the proper care and sensitivity, so the idea that Dream -- the only or at least most high-profile man-on-boy abuse story to come out so far -- is somehow fair play for cheap jokes feels very gross and borderline homophobic to me.

gently caress this completely reasonable poo poo my fellow human i'm still trying to think of a joke about a sex offender who i currently support by watching

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Benne posted:

Nearly every Speaking Out story was about man-on-woman or man-on-girl abuse that has largely been treated with the proper care and sensitivity, so the idea that Dream -- the only or at least most high-profile man-on-boy abuse story to come out so far -- is somehow fair play for cheap jokes feels very gross and borderline homophobic to me.

Orton got rightly mocked when it came out that he had been creeping on a 15-year-old girl (and it blows my mind that this didn't become a bigger story), and Jerry Lawler has been lambasted for years for the claims that he had sex with a minor, so I don't think this about being homophobic at all but pointing out the absurdity (and registering disgust) of WWE ignoring these stories, as well as making the perpetrators the target of the mockery (and absolutely NOT the victims). Again though, people have commented that they find the jokes offputting and others have been pretty good about agreeing that it's time to move on from them, and that's a good thing.

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

~*4 LIFE*~

Marching Powder posted:

gently caress this completely reasonable poo poo my fellow human i'm still trying to think of a joke about a sex offender who i currently support by watching

Just fyi, almost nobody on this board is watching NXT any more

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008



stop the fucking fight, cornerman, your dude is fucking done and is about to be killed.

Rarity posted:

Just fyi, almost nobody on this board is watching NXT any more

Oh cool then there's very little reason to continue with my completely fruitless search. Goes for everyone else too hopefully.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Jerusalem posted:

Orton got rightly mocked when it came out that he had been creeping on a 15-year-old girl (and it blows my mind that this didn't become a bigger story), and Jerry Lawler has been lambasted for years for the claims that he had sex with a minor, so I don't think this about being homophobic at all but pointing out the absurdity (and registering disgust) of WWE ignoring these stories, as well as making the perpetrators the target of the mockery (and absolutely NOT the victims). Again though, people have commented that they find the jokes offputting and others have been pretty good about agreeing that it's time to move on from them, and that's a good thing.

You can point out that absurdity without making the same tired "big with teens" cracks every time the ratings come out. And it's not like the Lawler jokes were groundbreaking comedy either.

I dunno, it just feels like a very dated style of ironyposting that doesn't have a place in 2020. And maybe calling it homophobic is a stretch, but I again reiterate that nobody is making these same kind of jokes about, say, Matt Riddle and Candy Cartwright. Singling out Dream still feels weird and loaded to me.

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

I thought on it some and I think it's our connection to the victims and the fact that society generally doesn't treat men who are victims as seriously. Speaking Outs victims have all been people we have some sort of relationship with as fans. They're going to feel closer even if none of us really know them. Which isn't cool or a defense of anything, this is just me getting some thoughts out to try to figure out why it feels different.

Hedgehog Pie
May 19, 2012

Total fuckin' silence.
In the UK, making jokes about pedophiles has been more of a thing since Yewtree, a bit of a coping mechanism to try and deal with some incomprehensible poo poo (see also Madelaine McCann). It's a lame excuse and one that this thread has helped put in a new light for me. It's hard not to make jokes about Jimmy Savile when it's been part of your gallows humour repertoire for so long but anything can be phased out with a little effort.

Just saying for the record that I don't think it's necessarily homophobic, though I guess sometimes it is.

Cavauro
Jan 9, 2008

Seth Rollins posted:

i think there should be a moderator with a sense of humor who can tell when a joke is funny or not. this mod would be able to tell when to probate someone for telling a bad joke, and when to reward someone for telling a good joke.

i like that too. but i don't know about there being crossover between people who have gained trust with the users and people who don't think every unusual or silly thing is being an rear end in a top hat or harming threads

i should mention I'm not talking about the pedophile jokes in any way with this. now i will, starting after this sentence. i would prefer not to see the kinds of those jokes that i've seen and have voiced displeasure with specific ones when i saw them by mocking those jokes, which did not work as well as talking to people, somehow

Cavauro fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Aug 29, 2020

NienNunb
Feb 15, 2012

I know that tensions have been high, both on the forums and in the world in general, but can we as a community take an effort to stop responding to people we disagree with as if they're posting in bad faith? EMF's post broke my heart today and it made me just so unbelievably angry at everyone (myself included I've been guilty of this in the past) who constantly antagonized them as if they were posting actively malicious content.

Like, not make a new official rule or anything. But stop treating everyone as if they're trying to hurt you with their opinions.

Eat My Fuc
May 29, 2007

NienNunb posted:

I know that tensions have been high, both on the forums and in the world in general, but can we as a community take an effort to stop responding to people we disagree with as if they're posting in bad faith? EMF's post broke my heart today and it made me just so unbelievably angry at everyone (myself included I've been guilty of this in the past) who constantly antagonized them as if they were posting actively malicious content.

Like, not make a new official rule or anything. But stop treating everyone as if they're trying to hurt you with their opinions.

There were times in the past when, frustrated at being called bad faith for liking WWE i’d lash out and say dumb things or lovely things that I wish I hadn’t and it was wrong to react that way. I also understand that when I came back to Fight Island after a long time away there were a lot more malicious posters around so trust was low and I think I was easily lumped in with them and instead of taking it in stride I acted dumb.

The kindness people show me here now I think is directly because I’ve been trying to be a better person on here and in life after a really rough few years. I think you’re right that not being so skeptical of people is good and I think generally we as a group of posters are moving in that direction. I just also know I was part of the problem and i’m really grateful people engage with me now instead of just saying my lovely username to all my posts.

There was a thread here a few months ago about saying nice things about other posters and it really opened my eyes to how I needed to be better, I didn’t get mentioned much in it but I understand why and I was so happy when a few posters did mention me. Times are so hard for all of us and i’m just happy people here are open and engaging each other with kindness most times.

Cavauro
Jan 9, 2008

NienNunb posted:

But stop treating everyone as if they're trying to hurt you with their opinions.

these are powerful words that i am going to abide by.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

I think we do have a bit of a problem of "stereotyping" posters. I know I do sometimes. I see a certain "type" of post and say "Oh, X is one of those." That's not fair, its not reasonable, and it doesn't help the community. Its not worthwhile to see a poster as a "troll" or whatever because all you're doing is deciding you can read into their "true" purposes beyond their words. And none of us can do that. It just leads to miscommunication, resentment, and people yelling over each other.

I don't think that's a Fight Island problem so much as a "people" problem. But its something we can be more aware of as a community.

Beef Jerky Robot
Sep 20, 2009

"And the DICK?"

I’m at a wedding so I’m drunk enough to be emotionally vulnerable so I’ll eat a probe or whatever but I wanna say that EMF seems like a pretty good person so I want to apologize if I was ever mean about your opinions

Eat My Fuc
May 29, 2007

Beef Jerky Robot posted:

I’m at a wedding so I’m drunk enough to be emotionally vulnerable so I’ll eat a probe or whatever but I wanna say that EMF seems like a pretty good person so I want to apologize if I was ever mean about your opinions

No problem bud, enjoy that dang wedding!

duckdealer
Feb 28, 2011

NienNunb posted:

I know that tensions have been high, both on the forums and in the world in general, but can we as a community take an effort to stop responding to people we disagree with as if they're posting in bad faith? EMF's post broke my heart today and it made me just so unbelievably angry at everyone (myself included I've been guilty of this in the past) who constantly antagonized them as if they were posting actively malicious content.

Like, not make a new official rule or anything. But stop treating everyone as if they're trying to hurt you with their opinions.

This is quite reasonable.

And as much much as I dislike WWE, often I hate it's fans even more. However, EMF seems to be a fairly decent poster. There has been at least one time when I though the piling on was too much and I failed to post in EMF's defense. Sorry about that!

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 60 days!
I'd like to apologize for any times I may have piled on EMF in the past, or indeed anyone else who wasn't posting in bad faith/trolling. I think sometimes we get caught up in the rush to try to be particularly witty/cutting in our replies to stuff we disagree with, without considering the feelings of someone who actually isn't just being a trolling asshat, and I know I've certainly been guilty of that.

Chris James 2
Aug 9, 2012


Sydney Bottocks posted:

I'd like to apologize for any times I may have piled on EMF in the past, or indeed anyone else who wasn't posting in bad faith/trolling. I think sometimes we get caught up in the rush to try to be particularly witty/cutting in our replies to stuff we disagree with, without considering the feelings of someone who actually isn't just being a trolling asshat, and I know I've certainly been guilty of that.

:same:

Junpei Hyde
Mar 15, 2013




Eat my Fuc is good

Beef Jerky Robot
Sep 20, 2009

"And the DICK?"

Eat My Fuc posted:

No problem bud, enjoy that dang wedding!

Had a great time, much love amigo

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

~*4 LIFE*~

Junpei Hyde posted:

Eat my Fuc is good

:hmmyes:

Now we just need to get him into some of that New Japan :getin:

Eat My Fuc
May 29, 2007

Rarity posted:

:hmmyes:

Now we just need to get him into some of that New Japan :getin:

I love new japan i should participate in the thread more to he honest I do lurk it and it’s one of the better ones here.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Join us for G1 Season, aka Best Season :hellyeah:

SG Bamboo
Aug 21, 2013

Smile. Win. Yay!

It's been more than a year and I still kick myself occasionally that I tipped an Okada/Ospreay draw and it cost me 2nd place in Rarity's prediction contest. Trying to do G1 math is something everyone on Fight Island should experience

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

EMF chilling out and everyone being cool and letting him become a cool and loved member of the community is the booking of the year

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida

Jerusalem posted:

Join us for G1 Season, aka Best Season :hellyeah:

is the G1 happening?

Chris James 2
Aug 9, 2012


IcePhoenix posted:

is the G1 happening?

Next month yep

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN
The EMF thing does make me wonder about our treatment of new posters -- like when EMF first started posting, we all just blew them off as another insane Vincel and never gave them the time of day until they forced our hand. (For the record I'm 100% guilty of doing this and want to apologize to EMF, you're actually cool and good in my book :)

That kind of reaction can be pretty intimidating to anyone who genuinely wants to get into pro wrestling, starts with WWE because that's the biggest name and the only game in town for 20 years, and when they start posting positive or even neutral opinions about the shows, get flooded with posts talking about cops and covering up child rape and and obscure in-jokes and "watch NJPW," and like, that's a ton of information overload all at once, and why would anyone brand new to wrestling even know what the gently caress NJPW is?

I get the intentions behind this, such as conveying "WWE is the industry leader and worth knowing for that reason, but it has a rotten history and isn't fully representative of pro wrestling today," which is important for new people to know for various reasons, like just to know what they're getting into and letting them know the alternatives available. But the way posters pile on kinda just feels like white noise that doesn't help anyone and potentially scares people off being part of the community.

I don't have a good answer to any of this, but it's definitely something I've observed over the past few years.

Hedgehog Pie
May 19, 2012

Total fuckin' silence.
Is Foochs still around? Because I feel like they got a lot of it too, even though they said countless times that their interest in WWE was largely down to specific talent (Mox) and their events being comparatively wheelchair-accessible. I think they started watching a bit of NJPW and people cheered but hopefully AEW has ticked those two main boxes for them.

I generally like the community a lot but I do think it would be nice for people to be a bit more patient with other users' curiosity. Like, I post here a fair amount, but there's no way I follow dirt sheets daily or anything like that, and it shouldn't be a requirement to do so. A few people make it seem like it should be.

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida

Hedgehog Pie posted:

Is Foochs still around? Because I feel like they got a lot of it too, even though they said countless times that their interest in WWE was largely down to specific talent (Mox) and their events being comparatively wheelchair-accessible. I think they started watching a bit of NJPW and people cheered but hopefully AEW has ticked those two main boxes for them.

I generally like the community a lot but I do think it would be nice for people to be a bit more patient with other users' curiosity. Like, I post here a fair amount, but there's no way I follow dirt sheets daily or anything like that, and it shouldn't be a requirement to do so. A few people make it seem like it should be.

Foochs is a regular in the AEW thread. I know this may be shocking, considering his history, but it's true.

Cerebral Bore
Apr 21, 2010


Fun Shoe
Well, to be perfectly frank WWE is objectively poo poo, and this is the general consensus here. So if someone comes in and starts telling you that this obvious turd you have before you is actually gold then how are you supposed to react besides dismissing them as a crank? Not directing this towards anyone in particular, but this is simply the natural reaction that most people have.

Now I'm not saying that we should be needlessly antagonistic or deliberately run people off, but someone can't demand that their opinions should be treated as reasonable when they clearly aren't either.

Bluedeanie
Jul 20, 2008

It's no longer a blue world, Max. Where could we go?



The only posters who know about my shameful wrestling viewing habits viciously shame me off site and in private, which is how it should be imo.

The mma side of the forums has this problem as well. It's ok and funny sometimes if they are being an rear end in a top hat unprovoked, but I agree the piling on of new people who post the "wrong" opinion may in fact be part of why the mma threads are like seven posts a day from a dozen people making fun of Tito Ortiz. It's ok to let people ask why you can't just put your hips above someone's head and let their takedown momentum pass harmlessly underneath you, it will give us new funny things to discuss instead of which members of a far-right death militia will be challenging for the welterweight title

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Beef Jerky Robot
Sep 20, 2009

"And the DICK?"

There’s a difference between being attacked for opinions and taking criticism of a corporation personally though

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