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Senerio posted:I absolutely 1000% disagree. The more toxic elements have frequently been running off the less toxic elements, and no major push was made to contain them until last year. The fact that (using him as an example because he was just talked about) DoctorGonzo had managed to post the way he did for as long as he did was a major contributing factor to the loss of regulars. I probated DoctorGonzo frequently over a two year period and then banned him. In retrospect I should have ramped up those probations to greater lengths far sooner than I did, but it's not like he was just freely posting without consequence (as the many abusive PMs I got from him about his inhumane and unfair treatment for a simple sixer would attest) and I highly doubt that anybody was looking at him as in any way representative of the subforum and its way of thinking. I can only really think of three posters out of the 100-150 regular users who have been regularly pointed to as being major problems. All three received numerous probations from me and Junpei, two of the three were banned by us (and the other auto-banned, snuck back in later and got told in no uncertain terms via probation to stay away) and I really doubt that the three dudes constantly being put on probation or called out for being jackasses by everybody else posting here were somehow chasing off other users who wanted to post about WWE.
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Sep 3, 2020 07:12
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J-Ru, I agree with you partly in that I don't think that would specifically chase away people looking for a place to positively chat about WWE but on a wider level just cause a poster is receiving probations regularly that doesn't make me feel any better about things if whenever that probation ends they just come back in spouting the same awful poo poo that got them probated the last 300 times. The message I get from that isn't that this forum won't tolerate lovely attitudes but rather that if you post something horrible you'll get a slap on the wrist but it's not really that big a deal.
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Sep 3, 2020 07:29
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I definitely needed to ramp up to longer probations faster, which is something I hope I've been better about recently. In specific regards to DoctorGonzo, I was averaging roughly two probations a month for them over two years and I really should have stepped up the length of probations faster, even if only to spare people from having had to deal with him for longer. None of this is happening in a vacuum, either. A lot of probations, even for posters that seem to be universally reviled now months or years later, would see people PMing me (sometimes aggressively, more often very tactful or at least curious) to say they felt I was going too far or being unfairly balanced one way or the other - ironically, mostly for 6ers, almost nobody ever contacted me about longer probations, it's a weird thing that seems to be universal across all the forums. End of the day I have to make the call and it's on me for making it, but I also can't (or shouldn't) just out of hand dismiss concerns people bring me about how I'm handling stuff, either in private or through threads like this.
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Sep 3, 2020 07:38
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WWE was always the reason why most people in this subforum were here. as it became less acceptable to support them, not everyone was going to swap to some other wrestling. most won't, unless they are super into wrestling, and this is a relatively stagnant userbase. the number of people who are very into wrestling in this subforum kind of grew in that it stayed similar as the number of posters here declined. the reason for this is that trying alternatives became much more important to more people and it became much easier to do that at the same time. people don't talk as much about the content of wrestling here as they used to, whether it's good stuff or 'bad' things that are bad for a show rather than being bad for humanity. this is not some clear and easy issue to deal with because it's not someone with horrible views actively being toxic. it's easily arguable that it doesn't need to be "dealt with" at all. but a significant percentage of the posts here are about keeping up with who is a bad person irl. calling people in the industry out. i personally am one of the people who does not want to like wrestlers anymore if they are a serious piece of trash, even if they are good on the show, but what i'm saying is that it's just a downer and you can't expect people to be into doing that all the time unless they are a certain type of personality. most people, if they felt that way, would say "gently caress this, it's horrible" and leave, rather than continuing to be a wrestling fan who spends a good portion of their time sorting this stuff out. it's not a good experience. Cavauro fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Sep 3, 2020 |
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Sep 3, 2020 07:48
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I think a lot of people left in the past idk, 5 years or so because they came here to post about wrestling and gently caress around with their forum pals and other aspects of life started to really dominate this board a lot of the time. Obviously there's legit reasons why that's the case, but it's certainly made things less 'fun'. Hardly subforum exclusive, or even somethingawful exclusive, just more of my cents for the cent jar.
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Sep 3, 2020 08:16
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Well said.
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Sep 3, 2020 08:20
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Cavauro posted:WWE was always the reason why most people in this subforum were here. as it became less acceptable to support them, not everyone was going to swap to some other wrestling. most won't, unless they are super into wrestling, and this is a relatively stagnant userbase. the number of people who are very into wrestling in this subforum kind of grew in that it stayed similar as the number of posters here declined. the reason for this is that trying alternatives became much more important to more people and it became much easier to do that at the same time. i started posting here because of ring of honor.
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Sep 3, 2020 10:08
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Cavauro posted:people don't talk as much about the content of wrestling here as they used to, whether it's good stuff or 'bad' things that are bad for a show rather than being bad for humanity. this is not some clear and easy issue to deal with because it's not someone with horrible views actively being toxic. it's easily arguable that it doesn't need to be "dealt with" at all. but a significant percentage of the posts here are about keeping up with who is a bad person irl. calling people in the industry out. i personally am one of the people who does not want to like wrestlers anymore if they are a serious piece of trash, even if they are good on the show, but what i'm saying is that it's just a downer and you can't expect people to be into doing that all the time unless they are a certain type of personality. most people, if they felt that way, would say "gently caress this, it's horrible" and leave, rather than continuing to be a wrestling fan who spends a good portion of their time sorting this stuff out. it's not a good experience. I don't know nothing about forum history and specific awful posters etc, but I think this was very well put.  Personally I think that life is hard enough without denying myself even more of the things that I find enjoyable. Granted, I am insanely privileged; I may be bisexual but other than that I'm a white man living in relative material comfort. If something someone does is particularly heinous to others, I have no right to question that. Like you said, it's partly a personality thing and I think partly a privilege thing. It's useful, and even somewhat perversely interesting, to know what horrible things people have done and to be aware of that, but for me... like, I don't really have any qualms about watching Chris Benoit matches or even WWE in general, so long as I'm not actually directly giving them money because that's where we're at vis-a-vis power through capitalism. WCW and WWF is how I got into wrestling, and the strange nostalgia I have for them is the main reason I post here. Wrestling is more of a side-interest to me, but just looking around my room the amount of poo poo I would have to throw out for every awful person represented here is staggering: Miles Davis, John Lennon, Allen Ginsberg, Roman Polanski, Woody Allen, Alfred Hitchcock, John Wayne, Jean-Luc Godard, Pier Paolo Pasolini, Klaus Kinski, Hideo Kojima, T.S. Eliot, and that's just a small selection. It might sound pathetic, but to do so would be slightly traumatic for me, because I appreciate the work of these people if not the people themselves. The best thing for me is to be aware of the things these people did and to try harder to support other, better people going forward. In short, sorry for being part of the problem. 
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Sep 3, 2020 12:47
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All very well said. I used to love posting in the AEW thread because it was light and fun and filled with jokes. But now it's just dour and miserable, for the reasons stated. And like, people have a right to be upset about these things in wrestling and post about them (to a certain degree), but I'm not gonna pretend it's an environment I'm particularly jazzed about hanging out in.
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Sep 3, 2020 16:14
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NienNunb posted:All very well said. I used to love posting in the AEW thread because it was light and fun and filled with jokes. But now it's just dour and miserable, for the reasons stated. And like, people have a right to be upset about these things in wrestling and post about them (to a certain degree), but I'm not gonna pretend it's an environment I'm particularly jazzed about hanging out in. yeah, i mostly just read threads then pop out most of the time now. i've got enough dour and miserable going on off of the internet. this is also why i'm thankful for that byob thread stopping here and helping me rediscover it. i post there now.
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Sep 3, 2020 16:52
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the game day threads are p. light & breezy
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Sep 3, 2020 18:10
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I really don't think the AEW thread isn't filled with lots of light and fun talk. Yeah, serious topics come up and when something happens it gets discussed but I think there's way more talk about how great Hangman is and who will be the new Horsemen and why Luther points to his head and other stuff. Ultimately it probably comes down to what you yourself find enjoyable or distasteful. I'm more bothered by some of the bad behavior of wrestlers so I tend to find that stuff gets brushed over in the AEW thread. But if you're not affected by that stuff and you just want it to go away than the fact that it pops up once or twice a week is probably too much. I dunno.
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Sep 3, 2020 20:09
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So I came back on once I got up and flipped through like 90 odd new posts and not a single one was doing anything beyond vague allusions to "well, Jericho does suck but I liked his performance in spite of that" and so on with Roberts and Hager. I'd hardly classify that as dour or miserable. Most of my annoyance came from MRT continually brushing off stupid poo poo as Jericho did with a constant stream of "this poo poo doesn't matter, it won't matter in a week," and other posters following suit with dismissive attitudes. And frankly it's beyond baffling to see people here just in favor of wanting to do away with talk of actual problematic wrestlers -- and specifically in this scenario, it's not like this was dredging up old material or endlessly harping on some bad taste jokes. It was literal breaking news related to the promotion's top star and instantly trying to be disregarded as unimportant? Like, loving, what? I get people wanna have a good time with their posting but this poo poo is practically intrinsic to wrestling now and arguing the impact on ~the discourse~ is extraordinarily petty compared to, y'know, actual victims. I'm sure the solution is just to convert one of the threads already on the topic of industry terribleness into a megathread for this kind of news, but I've never been fond of just letting people shove their heads into the sand. You'd never expect the WWE thread to stop talking about how they're absolutely awful and segregate all talk of it off into a separate thread, and I dunno if that should be true of any other promotion either.
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Sep 3, 2020 21:22
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Abroham Lincoln posted:So I came back on once I got up and flipped through like 90 odd new posts and not a single one was doing anything beyond vague allusions to "well, Jericho does suck but I liked his performance in spite of that" and so on with Roberts and Hager. I'd hardly classify that as dour or miserable. This is dour and miserable. There should be a good times / have fun thread for WWE and for AEW. Everyone should feel safe to dunk on, or joke about, or celebrate the product on TV week to week. There should also be threads that discuss all the serious and unfun poo poo too. If someone is just trying to enjoy the easily digestible wrestling content in front of them they should feel safe to do it without having to defend themselves. Posters shouldn't have to preface every post with "I know this guy sucks.." before being allowed to say they liked something. And I don't think it's burying their heads in the sand I think it's trying to disconnect (even for a few hours each week) from the reality that the world loving sucks, and things will probably never get better, and that most everyone is powerless to actually change a god damned thing.
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Sep 3, 2020 22:37
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Yeah, I don't think any of the general threads are overly depressing. They've been sadder this year but it's a pretty awful year that's touched everything so there just isn't any escaping it. I do think some of us, and I feel like I'm guilty of it, will bring up something sad or depressing and then keep bringing it up and keep bringing it up until it hits a point of "Ok, what do you want from us?" and there is no answer to that because we're really just a bunch of fans on the internet. But that would also be a dumb thing to try to craft any rules about.
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Sep 3, 2020 22:48
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Malcolm Excellent posted:This is dour and miserable. There should be a good times / have fun thread for WWE and for AEW. Everyone should feel safe to dunk on, or joke about, or celebrate the product on TV week to week. I was saying I don't think it's an issue with the AEW thread at all; I went through nearly 100 posts I missed and nothing was particularly negative and it seemed like a lot of people enjoyed the show! I don't think anyone needs to prefix their enjoyment of something and I don't think I ever suggested or implied that? If I did, I absolutely didn't mean it that way. I do think it loving sucks when people make light of that real poo poo or try to classify it as not mattering, though. I get it's a thread for fans on a dead comedy forum but going "oh this breaking news of terrible poo poo is irrelevant who cares" is pretty loving tasteless. So for as much as people are bothered by seeing that kind of chat, I'm really bothered by seeing people just dismiss it. I don't think we're really at a point where separate threads and rules on that kinda talk are necessary, though. I'm just airing my own annoyances, same as the people who are sick of seeing real poo poo.
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Sep 3, 2020 23:01
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this place is depressing as hell
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Sep 3, 2020 23:04
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Yeah I really don't get where the 'too dour crowd' is coming from here.
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Sep 3, 2020 23:06
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For me personally, It's incredibly souring to see a serious issue that is being brought up be dismissed or shouted down, especially when the person bringing it up has stakes in the issue. I really don't want an environment where those people's voices are silenced or cordoned off.
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Sep 3, 2020 23:13
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Do serious issues ever get shouted down? MRT talking about the Jericho concert was in the context of other very serious issues taking place at the same time. Some people may voice their frustration with having to talk about Coronavirus again or whatever, but I never see it get 'shouted down' or people told to go away and stop. Even in threads like this, where people are explicitly allowed to say what they like or dislike about the state of the board, it's always mentioned that it makes sense why these heavy issues are frequently involved in the threads. I can only speak for myself, of course, but I deal with the serious issues all day, so when it comes up here as well, it becomes a little bit of overload. The way I handle it is just not engaging with it, but considering this is the thread to voice this kind of stuff, I did.
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Sep 3, 2020 23:22
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Creating an environment where it's ok to ignore, for example, the fact that Velveteen Dream has groomed multiple teenagers sound like a major bad idea. I get it, it sucks but that's the reality of where poo poo is this year. That's an extreme example and I think people should be able to post about liking a Chris Jericho promo without having to face a barrage of responses about how lovely politics. However at the same time anyone who is posting they liked a Jericho promo shouldn't take unrelated Jericho discourse as a personal attack which seems to happen just as much as people being jumped on directly.
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Sep 3, 2020 23:26
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For me its obvious some people are just trying to compartmentalize the bad stuff about wrestling from their entertainment. And like... I don't always love that but I respect it because we all do it somewhere and sometime. I've made a point to try and disengage with the AEW threads when I'm unable to do that with Jericho or whatever. It was obvious it was going nowhere and annoying people so I didn't want to become a nuisance. But it still comes up and I still engage. And its obvious I am a nuisance to some people. I don't know what to do about that because I'm not ashamed that I'm not able to ignore bad stuff. I can only really decide if I'm being unreasonable or annoying in the moment. But I don't think it monopolizes the AEW threads (from me or others). It's not absent from them either. The problem is "how much is too much?" If I never posted in the AEW threads except to call Jericho a racist I'd understand why people would dislike me. But I think I engage with a lot more than that. I also think there's some people who have openly expressed that ANY talk of this kind of stuff is too much for them. And ultimately I'm really against the idea of cordoning the heavy issues off into their own chamber. That's when I find the place miserable, when issues important to some posters are said to belong in their place.
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Sep 3, 2020 23:29
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Right, I don't think there needs to or should be any extra rules in place for this. Rules loving suck. Segregating threads based on 'positive' and 'negative' remarks is total bullshit. I'm just voicing my thoughts, more than asking for anyone or anything to change.
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Sep 3, 2020 23:29
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Maybe "shout down" is too harsh, but I do recall recently that someone bringing up an issue (might have been Velveteen or Jericho) got met with "who cares" and "I don't give a poo poo" responses, which definitely gave off a "gently caress off, I don't want you talking about it" vibe.
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Sep 3, 2020 23:35
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There's definitely people who do express that sentiment. "If I could make one rule it would be ban this conversation" or "I wish you'd all shut up" or stuff like that. There's individual posters who have made an impression on me the same way I'm sure I've made an impression on them. Some who have even directly called me out. But I don't think its forum wide. There's been times I've been worried it was heading in that direction but I think it doesn't ever go that way because there's enough posters who push back. I don't know. Truthfully I think this place has a healthy equilibrium of push back in both directions. There's posters who I respect a lot who disagree with me sometimes and make me question if I'm taking it too far. There's posters I think are on the wrong side of it. There's posters who inspire me to speak up more. I'm not always happy with the way things go and there's sometimes contentious issues. But the fact that we're here debating and discussing it even though we don't all agree is a good sign of the place working right.
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Sep 3, 2020 23:50
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In my view, I don't think the wrestling forum should be a place where you're unable to discuss how you feel about a certain wrestler, even if that opinion is formed based off of their out of character personality.
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Sep 3, 2020 23:58
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Junpei Hyde posted:In my view, I don't think the wrestling forum should be a place where you're unable to discuss how you feel about a certain wrestler, even if that opinion is formed based off of their out of character personality. Its a good thing nobody is calling for that then 
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Sep 4, 2020 00:09
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I don't think it's crazy at all that some people have expressed that they don't find it personally fun to discourse about how their favorite wrestlers are and people. Not even that they think anything should actually change, just expressing their feelings in the thread designated for expressing feelings.
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Sep 4, 2020 00:12
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I mean, I don't think anyone finds it fun. Some people just think it matters more than others. And some people can't compartmentalize it as neatly as others. Like I said, I've personally tried to restrain myself. I've made my case about Jericho. I can't stand to watch him anymore. I sometimes skip his segments on Dynamite. I only mention it in passing if I'm talking about the show. But I think the fundamental problem is he keeps doing new poo poo to talk about. And I think that's the problem. This place talks a lot about the bad poo poo in wrestling because a lot of bad poo poo in wrestling keeps coming up.
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Sep 4, 2020 00:23
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i'm here to have a good time and unwind and tell jokes. when it's not fun here, i engage with things less. maybe some people think that's good.
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Sep 4, 2020 00:27
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STAC Goat posted:This place talks a lot about the bad poo poo in wrestling because a lot of bad poo poo in wrestling keeps coming up. Yeah I'd love to stop talking about wrestlers doing lovely things because it would mean they've stopped doing lovely things.
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Sep 4, 2020 00:27
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Seth Rollins posted:i'm here to have a good time and unwind and tell jokes. when it's not fun here, i engage with things less. maybe some people think that's good. I like when you're around. In fact, I think you should be mod!
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Sep 4, 2020 00:40
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JOHN CENA posted:i started posting here because of ring of honor. glad to know that about you, my friend
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Sep 4, 2020 00:52
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i'm not sure if people disagree with me that this place is a lot more serious over the last few years and that it makes it less penetrable of a community, or if they believe i am saying that there is something wrong with it and disagreeing with that. it's hard to tell. to answer the first thing: I will agree to disagree on that because it seems very clear to me. as for the second, don't worry, there was a misunderstanding. Thank you for reading
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Sep 4, 2020 01:00
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once the Saudi Arabia shows started, this place went from a fyad-lite to a cspam-lite edit: thank you for the kind words, my friend, NienNunb
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Sep 4, 2020 01:03
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Cavauro posted:i'm not sure if people disagree with me that this place is a lot more serious over the last few years and that it makes it less penetrable of a community, or if they believe i am saying that there is something wrong with it and disagreeing with that. it's hard to tell. It has absolutely become more serious and less penetrable. Even as someone who posts about them frequently I think the sociopolitics of wrestling get extremely tiring, but the passive-aggressive "ugh are we talking about this again" posts are also extremely tiring. But the thing is, I'm not sure if there's a way to have a non-sucky wrestling forum in 2020 that isn't kind of tiring because wrestling is kind of tiring right now. A few years ago things were still objectively really, really bad, but in 2020 the industry standardbearer is now blood-guzzlingly evil and their psychic impact on the entire wrestling world is so toxic their own top stars regularly opine about how their fanbase sucks and they hate them, and meanwhile their main competition hit their first big scandal and dealt with it pretty inconsistently and that's all loving weird and distracting, and the solution for virtually every other major wrestling forum on the internet is "we're not going to talk about it" and that loving sucks. Like, in the same thread here where we're discussing how to make this place more welcoming and less serious we're celebrating Eat My Fuc's posting turnaround, but that turnaround was as much built on knocking off some unfortunate trolling as it was on beginning to poo poo on the WWE like the rest of us do all of the time, and the fact that our feelgood poster story of the year is our biggest WWE diehard going from this: Eat My Fuc posted:I will probably be for posting this which I think is unfair but it's not my board. I simply asked a question, and now I ask another and then I will stop posting because I don't think I am welcome here. Eat My Fuc posted:WWE sucks. Every other wrestling forum on the planet is worse than WWE, either through the way they bootlick them or the way they just have insane beliefs about women, minorities, or anything else. Reddit is the worst of humanity, funko pop 35 year old IT guys who can't grow a beard and their one conversation point is some kind of IPA based on E.T. and that they hate WWE but also own a Seth Rollins Funko Pop. Twitter wrestling fandom is full of people who've co-opted it into their weirdo persona for 3 weeks and also want to tell you why Kenny Omega should be tried for some kind up made of crime, while they constantly make up AEW fans/WWE Fans and other people in their own mind to play the part of things they want to be angry at. is indicative of why this is such a hard topic: That change in stance is by no means wrong, if anything it's objectively way more accurate, but we're talking about how to make people feel like this is a fun, welcoming place while also fully acknowledging the biggest purveyor of wrestling in the industry is inherently evil and there IS a communal pressure to make people feel that way if they don't already. And there SHOULD be, because they are, in fact, that bad. But it's hard to have the "how do we make talking about wrestling more fun and welcoming" conversation when those things are there and clearly aren't going away anytime soon, and I don't know that there's an answer for that that isn't "some people will talk about it and some people won't and sometimes people will be annoyed about it and that's okay," but that doesn't actually change anything, either.
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Sep 4, 2020 02:24
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There was a time back around Revolution where AEW really did suck me and make me forget about all this and just love wrestling the way I used to love wrestling before I knew any of this poo poo. And I think good wrestling can still do that. And I don't think there's anything wrong with letting yourself enjoy wrestling as an escape. But I think wrestling - and especially WWE - is such a constant nonstop cycle that even if those moments exist and happen and are enjoyed in full when Kofi has his run or Becky Lynch has her run or whenever that there's all the in between. And there's SO MUCH in between. 7 hours of TV a week from WWE alone and then all the news and the interviews calling fans garbage and the tweets and scandals. Its so much and it means those moments burn through and get replaced. So like, I dunno. I got back to that other idea. We'd talk less about bad poo poo in wrestling if less bad poo poo happened in wrestling. The place definitely cares more about bad poo poo today than they did before. I care more about bad poo poo than I used to. I don't think that's a bad thing. But certainly its in many ways a sad thing.
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Sep 4, 2020 02:36
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STAC Goat posted:There was a time back around Revolution where AEW really did suck me and make me forget about all this and just love wrestling the way I used to love wrestling before I knew any of this poo poo. And I think good wrestling can still do that. And I don't think there's anything wrong with letting yourself enjoy wrestling as an escape. you'd probably be able to enjoy things if you just got off twitter i think.
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Sep 4, 2020 02:42
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JOHN CENA posted:you'd probably be able to enjoy things if you just got off twitter i think. I'm not on twitter and I fuckin can't stand jericho and don't even want to see him. havent watched dynamite in a while because of it. havent watched wwe since last years wm other than streamable links. honestly i only post here cause I like most of the people and the backstage wrestling related drama is entertaining. i'm probably not the only one. i was gonna make a huge effortpost but CarlCX basically covered it better than I could. it can be a lovely business with poo poo people and your ability to enjoy it fully depends on your ability to compartmentalize. those who can don't want their compartment broken into with poo poo news.
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Sep 4, 2020 03:07
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JOHN CENA posted:you'd probably be able to enjoy things if you just got off twitter i think. I actually don't even use it besides BB and occasionally sports updates. I get nearly all my wresting info from right here. And I do enjoy things, thank you. Wrestling is one of many hobbies which I think is why I'm ok being mad at wrestling. I find other ways to fill that space.
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Sep 4, 2020 03:23
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