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porfiria posted:The first book has a fun adventure plot and cool political intrigue (at least the first 2/3rds). Herbert wasn't a particularly great writer though and there's not much of interest in the subsequent novels. phew, what a hot take
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Sep 11, 2020 21:40
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Strom Cuzewon posted:There's also the bit where one of the guild representatives (maybe a navigator?) at the end loses a contact lens and tries to cover up his blue eye, which in isolation feels like a big twist reveal. Its a plot point that I'm not entirely convinced by, because the implication is that The Guild has been buying enormous amounts of spice since forever but nobody has ever noticed or asked what for.
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Sep 11, 2020 21:43
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Ha, I'd completely forgotten that in the Lynch film, ultra-badass fan fave Duncan Idaho (played by, um, the national security advisor from The Hunt For Red October? Yeah, I didn't recognise him either) appears in like three scenes and is merked by some random Harkonnen soldier in five seconds flat.
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Sep 11, 2020 22:09
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I think the implication was that the Spacing guild acquired all of their spice off the books, because they can just blockade anyone who tried to out them, so nobody even knew they were a big consumer of it, much less that spice was the key ingredient to the navigators ability to perform space folding. as far as the navigator's appearance - there are spacing guild dudes in the first book who seem fairly normal, aside from the spice eyes, but I don't think they're explicitly identified as Navigators, and Messiah has a navigator as a major character and he's explicitly a mutant fishman confined to a spice tank. I remember reading somewhere that Herbert actually really liked the imagery from Jodorowsky and Lynch of the Navigators not just being flippery dudes but full on horrific whalepeople, and brought that into the books at some point? Last time I read children, God Emperor or Chapterhouse was like 15 years ago so I can't remember if there's any truth to that.
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Sep 11, 2020 22:17
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Vintersorg posted:Wait are we talking about the Dune 2000 game cinematics? Weren't they just all Lynch stuff? They licensed some things from the film but not everything. So Paul looks like Kyle MacLachlan and Jessica is Francesca Annis but Leto, Gurney, Yueh, etc. all look way different.
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Sep 11, 2020 22:21
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:I think the implication was that the Spacing guild acquired all of their spice off the books, because they can just blockade anyone who tried to out them, so nobody even knew they were a big consumer of it, much less that spice was the key ingredient to the navigators ability to perform space folding. In addition to that, the guild has a monopoly on space travel. No one would be surprised to learn that they have a lot of spice, since spice is used as a form of currency and the guild is incredibly wealthy.
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Sep 11, 2020 22:24
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Payndz posted:Ha, I'd completely forgotten that in the Lynch film, ultra-badass fan fave Duncan Idaho (played by, um, the national security advisor from The Hunt For Red October? Yeah, I didn't recognise him either) appears in like three scenes and is merked by some random Harkonnen soldier in five seconds flat. Duncan Idaho is Syrio Forel except the author didn't have the will to leave him dead.
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Sep 11, 2020 22:24
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Anne Frank Funk posted:phew, what a hot take I don't think it's that hot. Dune is seminal sci fi, no doubt about it, but Herbert's weird perspective issues weaken a lot of his scenes, for example.
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Sep 11, 2020 22:27
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The guild rep with the emperor in Dune is explicitly identified by Paul as a Navigator, so the mutant thing was a bit of a retcon. Presumably to the ones in Dune being early-stage and mutants late-stage.
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Sep 11, 2020 22:29
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Alchenar posted:Its a plot point that I'm not entirely convinced by, because the implication is that The Guild has been buying enormous amounts of spice since forever but nobody has ever noticed or asked what for. I don't think it implies that people don't know about the Guild buying and hoarding Spice. I take the implication to be that the Guild isn't just using its spice in small doses like the nobles do to extend their lives or moderate doses like the BG does to trigger their ancestral visions. The Guild are dosing on Spice as much as the Fremen to the point where they're infused with it. MikeJF posted:The guild rep with the emperor in Dune is explicitly identified by Paul as a Navigator, so the mutant thing was a bit of a retcon. Presumably to the ones in Dune being early-stage and mutants late-stage. Yeah, recall that Edric, the named Guild Navigator from Messiah is a "Third Stage Guild Navigator." And the only reason why the other conspirators get to see him is that he needs to be present to shield them from Paul's foresight.
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Sep 11, 2020 23:29
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Regarding the color grading, the light being harsh and colors washed out could be something pulled from the book. Arrakis orbits a white sun. When Jessica enters the conservatory she's surprised by the soft yellow light provided by the filter glass, and later on Drunken Idaho slurs out about how the sun's too bright and nothing has the right color.
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Sep 12, 2020 00:35
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Vintersorg posted:Wait are we talking about the Dune 2000 game cinematics? Weren't they just all Lynch stuff? Choices.
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Sep 12, 2020 02:16
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:I think the implication was that the Spacing guild acquired all of their spice off the books, because they can just blockade anyone who tried to out them, so nobody even knew they were a big consumer of it, much less that spice was the key ingredient to the navigators ability to perform space folding. Lynch's film came out in 1984 so probably only Heretics and Chapterhouse would have that influence, if any is present. I don't know when Jodo's was in production though. God Emperor came out in 1981 so maybe?
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Sep 12, 2020 04:03
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Son of Sam-I-Am posted:Lynch's film came out in 1984 so probably only Heretics and Chapterhouse would have that influence, if any is present. I don't know when Jodo's was in production though. God Emperor came out in 1981 so maybe? Jodorowsky’s version began development in 1974 and was largely storyboarded and designed within that year. The development of Lynch’s version also took several years and there’s a bit of continuity and crossover of some design work between his version and Jodorowsky’s. Anything after Messiah *could* have been influenced by the films, though it’s hard to say for sure without direct quotes from Herbert himself. It’s certainly interesting that all the weirdest poo poo shows up in the novels written after Jodorowky had shown him his version, though.
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Sep 12, 2020 04:25
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I think Edric from Messiah may be the only fishy navigator who appears in the books. Maybe one shows up to negotiate (beg) for more spice in one of the later books.
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Sep 12, 2020 04:28
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Oh, had no idea Jodo's was that early. For some reason I thought the fact some design crossover occurred meant they were a lot more contemporaneous.
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Sep 12, 2020 04:30
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Messiah is as good and important as the original: it's basically the second half. The rest I can take or leave.
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Sep 12, 2020 05:08
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I seldom reread books, but I've read Dune three times. The first time I followed it with the other five. But the last two times I've only followed it up with Messiah.
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Sep 12, 2020 05:53
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Counterpoint: Herbert is a good author and if people find him mundane it might just be that he's been imitated so much by the sf/fantasy crowd. He wrote a lot of good non-Dune stuff too. But as always, I think people don't much like his later stuff because the Paul story continues into dark territory (cosmic fatalism, genocide, etc.) If that's the case, they're reading the first Dune book all wrong. Paul isn't a hero, he just plays one on tv.
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Sep 13, 2020 01:53
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I would love a part 2 to this upcoming movie that does the last third of OG Dune + all of Messiah, but that would be the worst case of "oh you thought the movie was ending now?" since Return of the King.
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Sep 13, 2020 01:58
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I wonder if Villeneuve will be able to tie a somewhat satisfying end to his movie, since it's only the first half. I feel like it's going to be drat hard, if it ends somewhere with Paul joining the Fremen and all his enemies having 'won.'
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Sep 13, 2020 05:15
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Not getting exterminated and being accepted into a society of uncounted guerrilla freedom fighters seems like a pretty optimistic ending imo
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Sep 13, 2020 05:24
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I predict a sorta semi cliffhanger, probably ending after Duncan Idaho sacrifices himself to save their lives.
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Sep 13, 2020 05:35
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Maxwell Lord posted:I predict a sorta semi cliffhanger, probably ending after Duncan Idaho sacrifices himself to save their lives. IMO there is enough footage in the trailer to points to the ending being after Paul kills Jamis. It looks like they combined the initial Paul/Jessica meet Stilgar's band with the Jamis fight in the same scene. Paul salutes with a crysknife; there's shots of him in that canyon wearing a stillsuit with a bloody nose; there's a very brief shot of Paul in combat putting a knife to a black actor's neck; there's another shot of Fremen patting a shell-shocked-looking bloody-nosed Paul on the shoulder as he walks by in slow motion. That was already the rumored division point and based on the trailer footage I can't see any other way of ending the film.
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Sep 13, 2020 05:39
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I just hope part 2 actually gets made  After BR2049 I thought the chances of this being green lit were zero, so I don’t know how much money this one has to make for them to continue.
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Sep 13, 2020 05:50
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Gonna commit Dune sacrilege here by stating that Duncan Idaho is not that important of a character. Don't come at me about the Scattering.
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Sep 13, 2020 06:11
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phasmid posted:Gonna commit Dune sacrilege here by stating that Duncan Idaho is not that important of a character. My hot take is that the trailer is the first time he 'clicked' for me so that I understood why God Emperor Dunc would bother to keep him around because he is all kinds of kick-rear end in the trailer
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Sep 13, 2020 06:15
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I hate Duncan Idaho's name. It's always put me in mind of an ambient temperature mayonnaise salad from a midwestern July 4th picnic.
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Sep 13, 2020 06:17
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For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that Indiana Jones' nane is ment as a tribute to the character.
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Sep 13, 2020 06:41
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Dunkin’ Idaho
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Sep 13, 2020 06:43
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David D. Davidson posted:For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that Indiana Jones' nane is ment as a tribute to the character. I’ve never heard this, but I have heard that Indiana was factually the name of an Alaskan Malamute that George Lucas had. (The character’s name was originally Indiana Smith before they changed it to Jones.)
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Sep 13, 2020 07:22
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I don't have any real proof. I just know Jorodowsky's plan for his Dune movie plus the novel had an influence on the original Star Wars.
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Sep 13, 2020 12:29
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david_a posted:I just hope part 2 actually gets made I’m pretty sure I read that Villeneuve has already been guaranteed that he’ll get to make part 2.
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Sep 13, 2020 13:33
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Steve Yun posted:Dunkin’ Idaho *For the rest of the day.
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Sep 13, 2020 13:52
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I expect that the first movie would end with Beast Rabban getting replaced with Feyd, since it'll look like a victory but then oops no. Plus that comes around the two years when Paul goes into hiding with the Fremen, so you kind of get the Empire Strikes Back vibe that there's a lot more work to do.
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Sep 13, 2020 14:40
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Xealot posted:I’ve never heard this, but I have heard that Indiana was factually the name of an Alaskan Malamute that George Lucas had. (The character’s name was originally Indiana Smith before they changed it to Jones.) Are you saying that he named the dog Indiana The_Doctor posted:I’m pretty sure I read that Villeneuve has already been guaranteed that he’ll get to make part 2. God I hope so, my biggest fear with this movie is that it has a poor showing in theaters due to Plague Helltimes and they pull the plug on a planned part 2, unless they were shooting them simultaneously like the Lord of the Rings movies or something.
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Sep 13, 2020 14:40
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"Duncan Idaho" is a name that should be lame as gently caress but for whatever reason ends up badass sounding.
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Sep 13, 2020 14:44
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Duncan Idaho just stands out as a little too normal amongst all the names like Feyd and Harkonnen and Gurney Halleck.
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Sep 13, 2020 15:45
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Yeah it really sticks out among all the bizarre and extremely alien Atreides names like Paul, Jessica, Leto, Alia, etc.
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Sep 13, 2020 16:42
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Neo Rasa posted:Yeah it really sticks out among all the bizarre and extremely alien Atreides names like Paul, Jessica, Leto, Alia, etc. Where do you live that Leto and Alia are common names? Duncan Idaho is a great name because it sounds like a type of potato. "When you get to the store make sure to pick up some of those Duncan Idaho taters!"
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Sep 13, 2020 16:59
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