|
Yeah, there were a lot of loud internet sexists/racists that hated The Last Jedi largely for racist reasons, which makes me feel awkward for really disliking it for entirely non-racist and non-sexist reasons. I can sort of see why some other people like the movie, but I really don't think that it's anywhere near as deep as they try to make it out to be.
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 01:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 23:02 |
|
|
Loudly turning pop culture into political culture war poo poo is straight out of the fascist playbook The test is whether you see the bad star war and go “that was a bad movie” vs “this little white cuckball is it, the radical left have given me no choice but to join the SS”
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 02:08
|
|
|
I remember a lot of that with TFA, cuckball and all. I don't think there was a lot of that with TLJ other than preemptive grifting by people who got popular by being outraged by TFA.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 02:15
|
|
|
mind the walrus posted:Boyega also didn't like TLJ as much, which tells me that while he's right on a lot of things he's also one of those people who was probably assuming that Finn was gonna become a Jedi or some nonsense. Or maybe he was unhappy about being sidelined almost entirely in TLJ in a dumb sidestory that was ultimately pointless? Also OctoberCountry posted:Framing Boyega's very legitimate criticisms of Disney and Lucasfilm as sour grapes over not getting to play a jedi seems kinda lovely and condescending This. Maybe it's time we stop assuming black people complaining about being treated like poo poo by the entertainment industry is all about sour grapes diva behavior, hm?
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 02:20
|
|
|
I don't know how much screen time Finn got compared to the other characters in ep8 but I don't think it was so much less that he would be considered sidelined
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 02:25
|
|
|
2house2fly posted:I don't know how much screen time Finn got compared to the other characters in ep8 but I don't think it was so much less that he would be considered sidelined It's not about quantity, but quality. Like he says, all the subtletly and nuance went to Driver and Ridley, but they had gently caress all idea about what to do with him, or Tran
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 02:56
|
|
|
Some Goon posted:That's exactly what you said, it's barely even a paraphrase. I know this is the internet and nuance is long since dead and relegated to whispered rumors, but what they said was "Boyega didn't like TLJ as much for [these admittedly weird speculative reasons]" Boyega's issues with Disney are a lot broader and deeper than just "not liking TLJ as much"
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 03:14
|
|
|
e:nm
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 03:24
|
|
|
I like how Rian Johnson decides to have Rose bite Hux on the hand instead of letting her hock an epic loogie and hit him in the face. I mean, the opportunity for a 4D spit experience was RIGHT THERE and he somehow resisted it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 03:42
|
|
|
While there are plenty of missed opportunities in the sequels, the Sith as Cenobytes remains a very solid idea and one they also executed on. Even all the old siths embodied in pals wiggling and woobling, while weird as hell, was pretty sweet contrasted with the Jedi just speaking in Rey's mind.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 03:59
|
|
|
mind the walrus posted:That's because actual Nazis were among the people driving the criticism. There's a reason over half of it was about "SJW propaganda." That already started happening with TFA, lest we forget the Little White Cuckball thing. And chuds latched onto Battle Angel Alita because they thought they could use it against perceived SJW darling Captain Marvel. Turns out movies can still be lovely even when lovely people dislike them, or be good even though lovely people try to use them for their agenda.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 04:07
|
|
|
McCloud posted:It's not about quantity, but quality. Like he says, all the subtletly and nuance went to Driver and Ridley, but they had gently caress all idea about what to do with him, or Tran Tran's character was specifically created for the movie. I don't think they create characters first and then decide what their role in the plot will be later. I mean maybe Disney does, but in general I assume it's the other way around
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 04:32
|
|
|
Grendels Dad posted:That already started happening with TFA, lest we forget the Little White Cuckball thing. And chuds latched onto Battle Angel Alita because they thought they could use it against perceived SJW darling Captain Marvel. Turns out movies can still be lovely even when lovely people dislike them, or be good even though lovely people try to use them for their agenda. And a lot of this is done by the right specifically because they knew liberals will massively overreact to anything they do, so they can 'claim' random symbols and pieces of pop culture and get liberals to go off on random people for not liking bad movies or for using a common gesture and make themselves look like complete idiots.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 05:49
|
|
|
Grendels Dad posted:That already started happening with TFA, lest we forget the Little White Cuckball thing. And chuds latched onto Battle Angel Alita because they thought they could use it against perceived SJW darling Captain Marvel. Turns out movies can still be lovely even when lovely people dislike them, or be good even though lovely people try to use them for their agenda. This is also happening with Star Trek these days too. A lot of Modern Trek has kind of a rough early TNG or "Voyager when it was good" quality to it, and that has made certain people hella mad about it (even though Trek has a long and proud history of being decidedly mediocre). I don't hate it, Trek is Trek, and as long as it's not something like Threshold or A Night In Sickbay, I can sit down and enjoy it. But I understand the reticence to criticize it felt by certain people, lest you be lumped in with the mask-off Status Quo Warriors, especially because the guy who's been leading the charge of the Hate Brigade against Modern Trek, uh... just got outted as a literal, I'm not making this up, full on SS-LARPing Nazi the other week. Allegedly. So yeah, I can see why that sort of poo poo has a chilling effect on legitimate criticism. Thanks, Nazis! 
nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Sep 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 06:11
|
|
|
McCloud posted:It's not about quantity, but quality. Like he says, all the subtletly and nuance went to Driver and Ridley, but they had gently caress all idea about what to do with him, or Tran Yeah. I kinda like TLJ but this is a spot-on criticism. It's so overstuffed with characters and plots that a lot of them get short shrift.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 06:53
|
|
|
2house2fly posted:Tran's character was specifically created for the movie. I don't think they create characters first and then decide what their role in the plot will be later. I mean maybe Disney does, but in general I assume it's the other way around I kind of feel Rose only existed because of the decision to split Finn and Poe up - and that may well have come about due to studio pressure.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 07:20
|
|
|
nine-gear crow posted:This is also happening with Star Trek these days too. A lot of Modern Trek has kind of a rough early TNG or "Voyager when it was good" quality to it, and that has made certain people hella mad about it (even though Trek has a long and proud history of being decidedly mediocre). I don't hate it, Trek is Trek, and as long as it's not something like Threshold or A Night In Sickbay, I can sit down and enjoy it. But I understand the reticence to criticize it felt by certain people, lest you be lumped in with the mask-off Status Quo Warriors, especially because the guy who's been leading the charge of the Hate Brigade against Modern Trek, uh... just got outted as a literal, I'm not making this up, full on SS-LARPing Nazi the other week. So what's the answer? Cede ground to the Nazis? Pretend to like things to spite them, proving them correct? Who the hell even is this guy and why should anyone care?
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 07:33
|
|
|
Angry Salami posted:I kind of feel Rose only existed because of the decision to split Finn and Poe up - and that may well have come about due to studio pressure. According to Johnson, Rose was created after he found that the Finn/Poe adventure he originally conceived wouldn't have any tension between the two, and he needed a better foil for Finn. How he managed to put the poster boy Resistance hero together with the indoctrinated Stormtrooper deserter and not find a way for them to conflict with each other is beyond me, though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 07:45
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:So what's the answer? Cede ground to the Nazis? Pretend to like things to spite them, proving them correct? The solution, mostly, is to stop arguing about Star Wars because it isn't fun any more.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 07:46
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:So what's the answer? Cede ground to the Nazis? Pretend to like things to spite them, proving them correct? There is no feasible answer to the question, sadly. The center is already ceded, and the effort to win it back is beyond the ken of those in whose best interest it is to actually fight back, just like in actual politics. The furries managed it somehow though, so maybe there is hope yet. I dunno. As for the guy in question, in a perfect world he'd be a self-important weirdo nobody--which he is, really--but unfortunately he's a part of ring of well-poisoning assholes who've gummed up the works on YouTube thanks to The Algorithm and its all encompassing rightward lean so that if you go looking for just normal videos about stuff like Star Trek their toxic poo poo tends to come up before any of the actual content you were meaning to find does. So it's a matter of "I don't want to know who this person is, but I sadly have to know who they are in order to avoid them and similar like-minded bad faith actors". Because there's a whole horde of them now. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Sep 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 07:59
|
|
|
Robot Style posted:According to Johnson, Rose was created after he found that the Finn/Poe adventure he originally conceived wouldn't have any tension between the two, and he needed a better foil for Finn. How he managed to put the poster boy Resistance hero together with the indoctrinated Stormtrooper deserter and not find a way for them to conflict with each other is beyond me, though. Yeah, Johnson's explanation makes no sense whatsoever, which is why I think it must have been studio mandated. TLJ mangles, contradicts and walks back its own themes so much that I have to assume there was just as much studio interference as there was with every other Disney Star Wars project. It would not surprise me at all if Disney was pushing hard to pair Finn off with a non-white woman, and Johnson, who already didn't seem to have much of an idea what to do with Finn alone, ended up throwing both characters off on a shaggy dog story.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 08:19
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:So what's the answer? Cede ground to the Nazis? Pretend to like things to spite them, proving them correct? The answer is to be truthful and accurate. Last Jedi is bad because the heroes are Contras, yet the movie isn't conducive to being read as satire. Boom. Easy. In other words, the choice isn't between the far right and the centre. You have to go left. Just liking/disliking things is worthless. That's why the nazis have been so successful here: there was a vacuum that they filled with bad pseudo-analysis. The people thumbs-upping the film because the protagonist is a sexually ambiguous Latino dude who's teamed up with are several women and a black guy have their heart in the right place, but that's also not good enough. That's frankly the same as Trump tweeting "I love Mexicans!" while eating a taco bowl. Its like calling Mulan Remake the greatest movie ever made because the whole cast is Asian. Its just garbage-quality apolitical poo poo. There are reasons why Last Jedi sucks - and reasons why people get really intensely invested in it anyways - but they can only be found through ruthless ideological critique. If you want to talk about politics, you need to talk about socioeconomics. If you want to talk about race, gender, etc., you need to talk about how those intersect with class struggle. And yeah, in an even more basic sense you have to get really technical with the cinematography, and editing, and how all those things inter-relate. So: Last Jedi is bad because the heroes are Contras, yet the movie isn't conducive to being read as satire. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 18:25
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:The answer is to be truthful and accurate. Last Jedi is bad because the heroes are Contras, yet the movie isn't conducive to being read as satire. Boom. Easy. The Contras were far right paramilitarios, not centrists. If you're going to engage in "ruthless ideological critique," then at least get basic historical facts right. Plus... SuperMechagodzilla posted:That's frankly the same as Trump tweeting "I love Mexicans!" while eating a taco bowl. This is inflammatory garbage. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Sep 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 18:39
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:The Contras were far right paramilitarios, not centrists. The resistance are right-wing. The directly-literal plot of the films is that they're neofeudalists serving Palpatine in his efforts to obliterate the Galaxy's left wing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 18:50
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:The resistance are right-wing. The directly-literal plot of the films is that they're neofeudalists serving Palpatine in his efforts to obliterate the Galaxy's left wing. There's no indication that the Republic is feudal (neo or otherwise) and there's no indication that the obviously fascist First Order is somehow left wing. The Resistance are not "serving" Palpatine (except possibly in some sort of indirect way you haven't bothered to explain), and indeed spend much of ROS fighting him and his forces. If you're going to introduce this kind of galaxy-brain bullshit, you need to offer more than one line of explanation. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Sep 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 18:53
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:The resistance are right-wing. The directly-literal plot of the films is that they're neofeudalists serving Palpatine in his efforts to obliterate the Galaxy's left wing. They effectively won before the trilogy even started, the First Order are not the resistance movement in these movies.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 18:57
|
|
|
Some Goon posted:They effectively won before the trilogy even started, the First Order are not the resistance movement in these movies. I am talking about Leia's Resistance. In the last movie, Palpatine turns to the audience and says "I want Leia's Resistance to win because they are actually the bad guys, as established at the end of The Last Jedi when the DJ character explained it in very clear terms." Straight up, like "hey Rey I want you to win because we have the same politics." And then Rey wins.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 19:06
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:I am talking about Leia's Resistance. I have no idea what scenes you're possibly talking about, but Palpatine is shocked and dismayed by the way Rey defeats him by causing him to kill himself. He does not react as though this is all according to his plan. https://youtu.be/iEdA31wEi_E
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 19:15
|
|
|
SMG opposite-world derails aside, there isn't anything you can do about straight up Nazis trying to colonize fan spaces except chase them out of your own spaces. There's no argument that will make TheQuartering or Sargon of Akkad or ArchWarhammer or Doomcock go, "my bad, you're right, I was wrong to try and set up my alt-right grift in this fandom." The problem is with Youtube and Facebook and Reddit setting them up perfect tools to radicalize right wing mobs to whine about the SJWs. All of us are downstream of the culture war bullshit, so you just have to find a way to avoid it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 19:21
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:I have no idea what scenes you're possibly talking about, but Palpatine is shocked and dismayed by the way Rey defeats him by causing him to kill himself. He does not react as though this is all according to his plan. Palpatine is good at making frowny faces to manipulate people. The question is what Rey stands for politically. If you can't say what Rey stands for politically, and how that differs from what Palpatine stands for, then you haven't thought this through. And that's what allows nazis to step in and fill the void. It's not complicated: if both the Resistance and the First Order are working for Palpatine, as DJ correctly points out in TLJ, then the actual good guys are those who are excluded from either side. Those good guys would be DJ, Ben Solo, and all those background slaves and serfs who are largely ignored by the protagonists. (We can also point to certain characters who are good-ish, like FN before he joins Leia, and whoever in the First Order gave DJ a crate of free welfare money.) SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Sep 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 19:23
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:Palpatine is good at making frowny faces to manipulate people. The question is what Rey stands for politically. There's no indication that Palpatine is somehow manipulating Rey, seeing as this is at the very end of the movie. Palpatine stands for conquering the galaxy to set up a fascist Empire and Rey stands against that and for inspiring people to fight against fascism even when things seem hopeless. DJ is not a person you should trust; the moral of his story is that people who say both sides are the same will sell everyone else out to fascists for their own comfort. You have twice asserted that there is a scene that claims that both the Resistance and the First Order are working for Palpatine without explaining what scene you're talking about. e: Oh, you added more. No. The good guy is emphatically not the guy who guns down an entire village of people to make an example of them in one of the first scenes. Neither is it the guy who sells out the people who rescued him from prison to fascists to save his own hide. Come on, dude. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Sep 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 19:32
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:So what's the answer? Cede ground to the Nazis? Pretend to like things to spite them, proving them correct? Just be firm in your convictions and post. Also realize a ton of people going "so if I dislike this movie I'm a nazi!?" are either nazis themselves or at the very least just whiney idiots who want to muddy the waters anytime someone challenges their views. Actually, the same goes for people saying you're a nazi for liking/disliking certain movies. The same poo poo happened in the Ghostbusters thread around the time GB '16 came aout where the ratio of people saying "so I'm a nazi if I don't like this movie?!?" and people actually claiming anyone who didn't like the movie was a nazi was 10:0 (as in, there were literally zero people ever making the latter claim in the thread, despite how much it came up as a defense)
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 19:46
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:There's no indication that Palpatine is somehow manipulating Rey, seeing as this is at the very end of the movie. The basic plot of the films is that Palpatine has been manipulating everyone by setting up a fake strawman political party called The First Order. Palpatine literally pretends to be the spirit of Darth Vader in order to recruit people sympathetic to Vader's goal of political revolution. That Snoke is a fraud is the fairly obvious subtext of the first two films, and then directly explained to the audience in the first couple minutes of Part 3. Palpatine's goal in creating a fake-leftist boogeman is to trick Luke Skywalker into becoming the new fascist Emperor, but he later switches his attention to Rey. This is explained in Last Jedi, when Snoke says "Darkness rises, and light to meet it. .... Skywalker, I assumed." Rian Johnson personally tweeted out confirmation that Luke went into self-exile because he realized he was a fascist. So, Palpatine actually wants a superpowerful "light" person to rise up and take over the Galaxy. This is again directly explained in Part 3 when Palpatine explains that this is all an elaborate ritual to transfer his 'spirit' to Rey. Palpatine explicitly doesn't consider Kylo Ren/Ben Solo politically compatible, but Rey is. Rey takes up the name "Skywalker", but we just established that Luke Skywalker was a fascist and Palpatine's goal was for a fascist Skywalker to take over the Galaxy. So: what is Rey is fighting for? Is Rey a leftist? Can you answer that question? SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Sep 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 20:05
|
|
|
This thread just became interesting again.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 21:52
|
|
|
Just a quick softball question: what does Rey think about property? A: she beats FN with a metal rod for allegedly stealing a coat from BB-8’s master (the person who owns BB-8 as property). That’s a bad look in 2020. But was it ever a good look? Keep in mind that the numerous continuity errors in the beating scene indicate that the beating of FN was a studio-mandated reshoot.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 22:56
|
|
|
Robot Style posted:According to Johnson, Rose was created after he found that the Finn/Poe adventure he originally conceived wouldn't have any tension between the two, and he needed a better foil for Finn. How he managed to put the poster boy Resistance hero together with the indoctrinated Stormtrooper deserter and not find a way for them to conflict with each other is beyond me, though. Right. It's worth noting that Poe, the dude that was supposed to be killed off in the first film but spared because he tested well with focus groups, got a more important arc than the supposed protagonist of TFA. It's hosed. nine-gear crow posted:There is no feasible answer to the question, sadly. The center is already ceded, and the effort to win it back is beyond the ken of those in whose best interest it is to actually fight back, just like in actual politics. The furries managed it somehow though, so maybe there is hope yet. I dunno. It's really annoying how people just toss their hands up and go "Well the nazis claimed this, now we can't do/say this or we're nazis!". gently caress that noise. Like Guy and SMG says, post with conviction and that's enough. If people insist on calling you a nazi or misogynist for it they're either arguing in bad faith or they're stupid assholes and can be ignored either way (unless of course, you're an actual nazi I guess). Both GB and TLJ are severely flawed movies. It's great that people find things about them to enjoy, but just because the nazi brigade screech about women and SJWism doesn't mean the films don't have issues. It just means that people have to actually parse the criticism to see what's being said and apply some common sense.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 23:29
|
|
|
McCloud posted:If people insist on calling you a nazi or misogynist for it they're either arguing in bad faith or they're stupid assholes and can be ignored either way (unless of course, you're an actual nazi I guess). To be clear though, it’s not just a matter of “having the courage of your convictions” (as George W. Bush put it). If your claim is that Rey is just so pure that she just instinctively dismantles all forms of oppression, you need to address the part where she and BB beat and taze a black man for alleged theft of a cheap leather coat. If you don’t address that, then the nazis can jump in and say that Rey is violent because she wants to take away videogames, or that FN deserves cop-death (or both; they don’t care if there’s cognitive dissonance). In any case, the truthful and accurate reading is that Rey is a racist and classist who’s beating up FN not only because he’s black, but because she believes him to be a random ‘scavenger’. And that’s bad. She’s a bad person.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2020 00:06
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:To be clear though, it’s not just a matter of “having the courage of your convictions” (as George W. Bush put it). If your claim is that Rey is just so pure that she just instinctively dismantles all forms of oppression, you need to address the part where she and BB beat and taze a black man for alleged theft of a cheap leather coat. That is quite the take, certainly. I don't even remember the scene where they taze FN, which isn't surprising because TFA was mostly forgettable
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2020 03:17
|
|
|
Yea def not defending TFA or Rey as a perfect angel or whatever. I do think at that point in the story tho Rey mostly views herself in contrast to other scavengers who she violently lashes out at in disgust, tho I think self loathing is a big part of it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2020 03:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 23:02 |
|
|
McCloud posted:That is quite the take, certainly. I don't even remember the scene where they taze FN, which isn't surprising because TFA was mostly forgettable For a quick recap: Rey is hyped up on pure rage because two of Unkar’s guys tried to steal BB-8 away from his rightful owner (Rey’s incredibly invested in this loss of ownership because she sees it as analogous to her parental situation). So, coincidentally at that moment, BB-8 spots FN and yells something like “hey that guy stole my master’s jacket!” - so Rey chases him down and strikes him in the face with an upwards swing of her steel pipe. FN is literally knocked into the air with a surprise blow that realistically would have shattered his jaw - and, while he’s rolling on the ground in pain and confusion, BB repeatedly tazes him with an electric prod. The fact that it’s so unmemorable points to several of the problems with the film: the brutal violence against an innocent man is played for light comedy, the scene in question is poorly constructed because of the reshoots, and FN instantly forgives being struck in the face with a pipe and starts quirkily flirting with Rey.... Contrast this with Luke being knocked out by Sandpeople. So it’s politically bad, but also just stupid and shoddy. The building FN gets beat in is a hastily-repurposed set from abother scene, so props and lighting change drastically from moment to moment.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2020 04:23
|
|