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That was a great trailer and it was nice to have it flipped being an Imperial instead of the rebels for once. Yeah we know the Empire is the bad guys but it's nice to see some that might have nobler traits instead of being moustache twirling evil caricatures.
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# ? Sep 14, 2020 23:05 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 23:49 |
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I really hate to go there because its but another reason I liked Rogue One is because it finally had the balls to show a morally ambiguous (read: outright sociopath) in Cassian Andor. I don't think any side in a war should be portrayed as 100% good.
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# ? Sep 14, 2020 23:16 |
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I didn't hate cassian he was one if the better characters in the movie. Jyn was the weak link because it left you with two cynics yelling at each other. When the movie switched gears and Jyn was suddenly the optimist of the group her dynamic with Cassian improved. But the first two thirds of the movie are such a joyless slog of assholes being rude to each other.
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# ? Sep 14, 2020 23:20 |
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Gonna get it on Steam because SteamVR works really well.
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# ? Sep 14, 2020 23:23 |
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“We want a space opera! Keep your politics out of our stuff!” “Also maybe make the bad guys a bit nicer...” “And maybe make the good guys worse...” The OT as a piece of fiction is incompatible with any attempts at shades of grey. You can’t have new nuanced characters + a shield from people critiquing the story telling that is bringing them to life now in the year 2020.
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# ? Sep 14, 2020 23:29 |
Leaders are poo poo. Soldiers are just soldiers.
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# ? Sep 14, 2020 23:30 |
NtotheTC posted:I really hate to go there because its but another reason I liked Rogue One is because it finally had the balls to show a morally ambiguous (read: outright sociopath) in Cassian Andor. I don't think any side in a war should be portrayed as 100% good. Rogue One is great because there's a scene where Jyn compares Cassian to a stormtrooper in an attempt to call him out and a weaker film would've taken the moment to make him go "oh you're right Jyn, I really am actually just an rear end in a top hat!" but instead he immediately turns it back on her since she only joined the rebellion once she had a personal stake in it while he had been fighting the Empire since he was a child. There's also the scene where all the Alliance senators and higher-ups decide the Death Star is too powerful and they have no choice but to capitulate because violence isn't the answer, and the protagonist team head out extralegally to bash the fash anyway, but I can't see any direct parallels to real life here
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# ? Sep 14, 2020 23:30 |
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Trevor Hale posted:The OT as a piece of fiction is incompatible with any attempts at shades of grey. You say that but The main character is literally named Grey. Game set and match
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# ? Sep 14, 2020 23:31 |
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Eej posted:You say that but gently caress
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# ? Sep 14, 2020 23:37 |
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3 posted:EDIT: Also the interceptor pilot is both morally conflicted and a gay icon, he owns: More like Varko Gay, am I right? Good on him, finding a partner is hard enough without the insane stress the average relationship would be subjected to thanks to the mortality rate for TIE pilots.
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# ? Sep 14, 2020 23:44 |
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Trevor Hale posted:“We want a space opera! Keep your politics out of our stuff!” Han Solo didn't exist, I guess, and Luke never force choked any Gamorreans.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 00:59 |
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Anarcho-Commissar posted:Han Solo didn't exist, I guess, and Luke never force choked any Gamorreans. this is a bad read of the movies
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 01:12 |
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The statement was that there's no grey at all in the OT, that's it's completely black and white. But that's not true. It's *mostly* black and white, sure, but there's still some nuance. Or at least there was until the special edition where Han no longer shoots Greedo in cold blood.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 01:20 |
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PunkBoy posted:On a completely different note, I wonder if I can find a copy of the X-Wing Official Strategy Guide anywhere. Mine is literally falling apart.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 01:22 |
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Well... that short film was loving incredible. Alright then.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 01:24 |
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NtotheTC posted:I really hate to go there because its but another reason I liked Rogue One is because it finally had the balls to show a morally ambiguous (read: outright sociopath) in Cassian Andor. I don't think any side in a war should be portrayed as 100% good. given that andor spends the whole film being a guilt-ridden mess over the actions he has to take 'for the cause' I'm not sure that fits the definition of a sociopath
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 01:37 |
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3 posted:EDIT: Also the interceptor pilot is both morally conflicted and a gay icon, he owns: I actually think this is problematic, because the racism/sexism inherent to the Empire was a big part of their evil and now it's being hand waved away. I also dislike the re-writes of "The Empire brought peace and fought corruption blah blah blah" because canonically it did not. It let the Hutts rule hutt-space and crackdown on the other syndicates, it allowed the black sun to operate with impunity, it allowed Corellia's merchant-princes to become robber barons, it re-legalized slavery. The Empire absolutely should not be humanized, it's based on the Nazi's for fucks sake and it always seems slimy. And, to back everyone else up, Tie Fighter was great about that because... everyone was a drat Nazi. Playing Tie Fighter was cartoonishly evil, especially in the expansion under Thrawn. EDIT: And if you want some kind of moral grey area in star wars, it's in the prequels and KOTOR. Turns out the Sith are wholly incontrovertibly evil, but the Jedi are also evil and hide it behind a code of non-interference unless there are Sith hanging around. TheAnomaly fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Sep 15, 2020 |
# ? Sep 15, 2020 01:49 |
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TheAnomaly posted:
Wasn't the Thrawn expansion mostly just hunting down Zaarin and beating up on pirates with the op missile boat? I mean hell this game apparently has the Empire hunting down Alderaan refugees and killing them in just the prologue and that's a lot more war crime-y than anything in the X-Wing series of games. I really don't care if they make the Empire sympathetic or not. The Empire's bad dudes and while the grunts might be okay humans (NO XENOS ALLOWED), the Empire's still horrible. I can keep that in mind and still play as them and have fun as them, we all don't have to wring our hands about it and try and make ourselves feel guilty.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 01:53 |
Counterpoint: Aesthetic is waaaaaaayyyyy better
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 01:54 |
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TheAnomaly posted:I actually think this is problematic, because the racism/sexism inherent to the Empire was a big part of their evil and now it's being hand waved away. I also dislike the re-writes of "The Empire brought peace and fought corruption blah blah blah" because canonically it did not. It let the Hutts rule hutt-space and crackdown on the other syndicates, it allowed the black sun to operate with impunity, it allowed Corellia's merchant-princes to become robber barons, it re-legalized slavery. The Empire absolutely should not be humanized, it's based on the Nazi's for fucks sake and it always seems slimy. The Empire was mostly racist against Aliens, if you were human it was all good. Hell they even had enough notable women at this point to say that someones sex wasn't even an issue for them. Such has been true for the old legends cannon and the current.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 01:55 |
TheAnomaly posted:I actually think this is problematic, because the racism/sexism inherent to the Empire was a big part of their evil and now it's being hand waved away. I also dislike the re-writes of "The Empire brought peace and fought corruption blah blah blah" because canonically it did not. It let the Hutts rule hutt-space and crackdown on the other syndicates, it allowed the black sun to operate with impunity, it allowed Corellia's merchant-princes to become robber barons, it re-legalized slavery. The Empire absolutely should not be humanized, it's based on the Nazi's for fucks sake and it always seems slimy. lmao, no one is arguing that the Empire isn't evil, it's loving Star Wars. Literal children know the Empire are the bad guys, I don't understand how people are freaking out that making this one TIE pilot kind of cool is going to confuse grown-rear end adults into thinking the Empire is the greatest thing ever. Humanizing the banality of evil isn't problematic, it's indicative of how these kinds of regimes actually operate. Grey being happily gay married doesn't make him automatically good, just like how that one navy seal who took part in the assassination of Bin Laden coming out as trans didn't make them not a war criminal. Also which version of TIE fighter did you play where everyone around you was a cartoonish stereotype? Because you might want to give that game another look if that's what you took away from it.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 01:57 |
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BogDew posted:The GoG releases have them. Ooh, may need to look into that then. I enjoyed Farlander's story.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 01:57 |
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Keltar posted:The Empire was mostly racist against Aliens, if you were human it was all good. Hell they even had enough notable women at this point to say that someones sex wasn't even an issue for them. Such has been true for the old legends cannon and the current. Sexism was definitely a part of the Empire in the old EU. It's a big part of the back story of Daala (And Isard too?), and it gets brought up in a number of other places that it only starts to change after Endor.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 02:00 |
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3 posted:lmao, no one is arguing that the Empire isn't evil, it's loving Star Wars. Literal children know the Empire are the bad guys, I don't understand how people are freaking out that making this one TIE pilot kind of cool is going to confuse grown-rear end adults into thinking the Empire is the greatest thing ever. Humanizing the banality of evil isn't problematic, it's indicative of how these kinds of regimes actually operate. Grey being happily gay married doesn't make him automatically good, just like how that one navy seal who took part in the assassination of Bin Laden coming out as trans didn't make them not a war criminal. Tie Fighter, originally the disk version in 95 then in 98 I happily bought it again on glorious CD-Rom. Gotta earn them big bad guy secret cult tattoos. Seriously, who the gently caress isn't cartoonishly evil Tie Fighter? Out of the empire, I mean. The lady who stole the Tie/D creation plans and started manufacturing her own to sell them to the alliance might have been cool. But even the two defecting admirals/grand admirals are just angry that they aren't getting enough - one wanted more money and wasn't defecting so much as being bought out by the rebels and the other tried to kill the Emperor to make himself the new Emperor. As for racism/sexism - humans were "okay" in the Empire but every admiral/grand admiral except Thrawn in any actual Canon was male prior to the death of the Emperor. You get one woman who takes over in the X-Wing books to help lead the Imperial remnants but she wasn't an Admiral at the time of Palpatines death, she was a Governor who took command of a SD after the New Republic ousted her from her planet, and you get Thrawn as the only minority and he is GA because the Empire absolutely couldn't afford to let anyone else grab him up (and he only joined the Empire because he new about the stupid force-proof space bugs nonsense and thought only the Empire could stop them - his clear villain indicator being that he he always chose the statistically correct choice, actual morality of it be damned). Women may have been a part of the Empire just like women were a part of the Nazi's, but they certainly weren't in the upper echelons of Power.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 02:12 |
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fartknocker posted:Sexism was definitely a part of the Empire in the old EU. It's a big part of the back story of Daala (And Isard too?), and it gets brought up in a number of other places that it only starts to change after Endor. If it existed it certainly didn't stop them from rising up and earning prominent positions of power and even being in charge of a Super Star Destroyer or two which is rather significant. Daala was in complete control of the Empire or what was left of it at one point before she finally bungled it badly enough to lose it. Isard certainly scared the pants off everyone and routinely terrified anyone if they thought she had an issue with them due to her own powerful position, not sure she ever really struggled with anything, hell she killed her own father which helped solidify her icy reputation. She was the last person most ever wanted to end up on the bad side of. There's been various other women in the Empire seen here or there since then, some troopers, some higher positions of power, the sexism if it had ever been a factor has become a relatively moot point in the current direction.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 02:15 |
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TheAnomaly posted:I actually think this is problematic, because the racism/sexism inherent to the Empire was a big part of their evil and now it's being hand waved away. I also dislike the re-writes of "The Empire brought peace and fought corruption blah blah blah" because canonically it did not. It let the Hutts rule hutt-space and crackdown on the other syndicates, it allowed the black sun to operate with impunity, it allowed Corellia's merchant-princes to become robber barons, it re-legalized slavery. The Empire absolutely should not be humanized, it's based on the Nazi's for fucks sake and it always seems slimy. I would make the point there is a very large distinction between humanizing The Empire, and humanizing individuals within that empire. The former I've never seen done, I've never seen The Empire itself humanized, not in this short, not in the leaked stuff we know about the prologue mission, not in the films. The Empire is unequivocally bad and is always shown as such, but that very different from making people within that system fleshed out creatures and not cardboard cutouts. Even in other fiction, like the gundam example, its the organization being given shades of grey as the problem, not a given person within it. If you want the best possible example of this, look at all the Vietnam war films. Heck ol' george has even said the US and vietcong were inspirations for the empire and rebels. Most of them (any good ones anyways) don't portray the war as heroic or good, its always coloured with how awful it was, and the characters are usually fleshed out people in a poo poo system either there by force or not knowing better. How boring would it be watching Apocalypse Now or something and have every US soldier just twirling their mustaches cackling as they commit war crimes and having no interpersonal life or drama?
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 02:19 |
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well, of the 100 new posts there has been exactly one of them that was good it seems cool short space movie i like that we're gonna probably be able to do maneuvers like the mode in teh battlefront games
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 02:22 |
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Coq au Nandos posted:More like Varko Gay, am I right? i am more shocked tie pilot is married more than anything. i feel like it would be like ww1 and such where they just put every unmarried kid in a tie. Tom Guycot posted:I would make the point there is a very large distinction between humanizing The Empire, and humanizing individuals within that empire. The former I've never seen done, I've never seen The Empire itself humanized, not in this short, not in the leaked stuff we know about the prologue mission, not in the films. The Empire is unequivocally bad and is always shown as such, but that very different from making people within that system fleshed out creatures and not cardboard cutouts. Even in other fiction, like the gundam example, its the organization being given shades of grey as the problem, not a given person within it. "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Emperor Sheev Palpatine probably.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 02:46 |
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is there a list of sith that got promoted to be sith #1 by killing their master?
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 02:51 |
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Tom Guycot posted:The Empire is unequivocally bad and is always shown as such, but that very different from making people within that system fleshed out creatures and not cardboard cutouts. The Empire is sometimes perceived as "good", as in, some Moffs/governors/commanders/admirals actually do "restore order" and "eliminate corruption", though through highly immoral acts, that's the Tarkin or the Thrawn model of the Empire, and that does on occasion get support from certain types of people, and I think that's partly what people are worried about. The other side of it is that folks really just like to have a clear enemy without sympathetic nuance. Titan Leader doesn't seem terribly fond of the Empire, but wants to protect his buddies, family, etc, some of which might be more devout to the Empire, so he probably doesn't want to try to organise a mass defection for fear of being caught and getting others in the firing line, and wouldn't be able to protect his allies like he did in that short. If he were the Admiral, he could probably pull a Red October style plan, but he's in a TIE with no hyperdrive, at the mercy of the mothership. He's probably done hosed up poo poo and feels like he can't wash his hands of it. Lots of risks associated with taking a stand. But those kinds of dilemmas are problematic and very hard to handle. The controversy there is pretty easy to understand. Some folks really don't want that kind of stuff in their media, especially nowadays, and that's fair. I think that it's more than a little overblown for that to come from that short, since it doesn't really touch any of that at all, just has a cool rear end space battle then dogfight between a TIE and an X-Wing but from the TIE's perspective, but the character bio does raise those points.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 02:52 |
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Statutory Ape posted:is there a list of sith that got promoted to be sith #1 by killing their master? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uLeOu__EYQw
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 02:57 |
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Tom Guycot posted:I would make the point there is a very large distinction between humanizing The Empire, and humanizing individuals within that empire. The former I've never seen done, I've never seen The Empire itself humanized, not in this short, not in the leaked stuff we know about the prologue mission, not in the films. The Empire is unequivocally bad and is always shown as such, but that very different from making people within that system fleshed out creatures and not cardboard cutouts. Even in other fiction, like the gundam example, its the organization being given shades of grey as the problem, not a given person within it. okay, I'm going to chalk this one up to Poe's Law and assume you're being serious. The American's in Apocalypse Now were villains. The entire point of Apocalypse Now is (as it is in Heart of Darkness, the book it is loosely based on) that people who serve evil can't afford self reflection because then they will have to admit that they are evil. The fact that each protagonist in Apocalypse Now has a lovely situation that brought them to Vietnam does not excuse their behavior as servants of an evil Empire, and we are absolutely not supposed to forgive them for being there. Finally, you can humanize a villain without making them sympathetic. The problem with this trailer is that we are supposed to take Grey seriously as a sympathetic character who joined up for good reasons and is fighting for good reasons and is a good person in a bad situation working for the Nazis. The whole "decent person working for bad people because other people are worse" is a lovely trope and needs to go away - good people don't continue to work for bad people. Star Wars is also full of people who were raised under Imperial propoganda, found the truth, and then left (usually to the Rebel Alliance). From Wedge Antilles in the original to Agent Kallus in Rebels, Star Wars has an answer for "what happens when good people join the Empire" and it's not "they stay Imperials even after witnessing how moustache twirlingly evil it really is."
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 03:00 |
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Keltar posted:If it existed it certainly didn't stop them from rising up and earning prominent positions of power and even being in charge of a Super Star Destroyer or two which is rather significant. Daala was in complete control of the Empire or what was left of it at one point before she finally bungled it badly enough to lose it. Isard certainly scared the pants off everyone and routinely terrified anyone if they thought she had an issue with them due to her own powerful position, not sure she ever really struggled with anything, hell she killed her own father which helped solidify her icy reputation. She was the last person most ever wanted to end up on the bad side of. There's been various other women in the Empire seen here or there since then, some troopers, some higher positions of power, the sexism if it had ever been a factor has become a relatively moot point in the current direction. Again, all those are post-Endor and the death of Palpatine. Daala's hidden off in the Maw for years and was bypassed while at Carida and thrown in a kitchen pretty much just for being a woman. Isard was insane and connected directly to the Emporer, and rises most heavily after his death. Another example is the captain of the Interdictor that shows up in the early X-wing books, Captain Iillor, who doesn't get promoted until after Endor when the Empire starts easing up on the restrictions on women as they need any capable officers they can find, and it's noted she was unusual for having gotten as far as she had before that. To quote Rogue Squadron, "The Empire's bias against aliens and women reached an unprecedented level of refinement in the Imperial Navy... [Iillor] would have been stuck on that Carrack-class cruiser had not the defeat at Endor made the need for competent officers so great." I'm pretty sure there's other examples, but those are a few that I knew off the top of my head. You claimed sex wasn't an issue for the Empire, even in the EU/Legends canon. A number of works in the old EU made it very clear that sexism was absolutely part the Empire at the height of it's power, just like the anti-alien stuff, and this only changed when they started losing the war and falling apart after Endor.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 03:00 |
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The empire in the OT is all stuffy classist british dudes led by a warlock and the rebel alliance has female leadership and the culmination of it in rotj is a multi race coalition led by Mon Mothma. I like how the old EU handled bringing female imperial leaders , not sold on what the new EU is doing but tbf I haven't read most of the books (only comics) so maybe they have a good explanation for all the female isd commanders or whatever.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 03:15 |
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The Empire was established as an organization to stop child trafficking and abuse by the Jedi order and the complicit Senate. Alderan was the "Epstein Island" of the Republic.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 03:33 |
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TheAnomaly posted:The problem with this trailer is that we are supposed to take Grey seriously as a sympathetic character who joined up for good reasons and is fighting for good reasons and is a good person in a bad situation working for the Nazis. The whole "decent person working for bad people because other people are worse" is a lovely trope and needs to go away - good people don't continue to work for bad people. It absolutely does happen, though. Some folks want to mitigate the damage done by the worse people they work with/for. Some folks want to protect other folks they care about under the bad guys. Some just don't have a choice or an opportunity to get away. It takes a lot to leave any kind of oppressive regime, whether it be a cult, an extremist group or a nation. None of this absolves them of any wrongdoings, it just explains them, and why they didn't or can't leave. You used Kallus and Wedge as examples within Star Wars, but neglected to mention how that led to deaths, captures and interrogation when it went wrong. It's just not a safe move, and it's very logistically difficult. Also, while I agree that most of the people in Apocalypse Now were differing shades of awful, that's also a film that folks remain famously divided on whether or not it's anti-war or pro-war, which just emphasises how divisive this stuff is and how folks interpret things differently.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 03:35 |
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TheAnomaly posted:okay, I'm going to chalk this one up to Poe's Law and assume you're being serious. Thank you for missing the point in a spectacular way.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 03:57 |
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There are some cool spaceships and I want to fly them and shoot the other cool spaceships. Too bad they are stuck with forty years of nerd garbage for the freaks to wallow in. You gotta take the bad with the good sometimes. I’m strongly considering buying a cheap joystick to fly the cool spaceships. Anyone have a recommendation sub $50 the cheaper the better since I will probably just end up burning out pretty fast (due to being bad)
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 03:59 |
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I hope the campaign is lengthy, I know even base X-wing/Tie Fighter length is too much to hope for but still, a good dozen or so hours would be nice.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 04:01 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 23:49 |
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Arbite posted:I hope the campaign is lengthy, I know even base X-wing/Tie Fighter length is too much to hope for but still, a good dozen or so hours would be nice. If EA didn't believe in making everything go obsolete the moment they aren't getting a dime, they'd add a mission builder and let people go nuts making and sharing missions.
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# ? Sep 15, 2020 04:10 |