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Open Source Idiom posted:Why were those tentacles furry!?!? So it’s ok if tentacles are smooth or have suckers? But you draw the line at furry tentacles.
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Sep 21, 2020 17:59
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InfiniteZero posted:The very first episode featured this: Yeah yeah, I can't really explain it so it's probably just my own experience with it, the show just feels like its embarrassed by its own horror elements. I don't know why they had that huge fantasy sequence as a hook into the show. It would make more sense to me if we spent more time in Tic's inner experience. This episode was more satisfying in that way, I like seeing that his flaws and trauma are really upsetting to him and the audience. I think it's good that it's not easy to like him. Just a feeling, feels like the show can't decide if it's a fun romp or a serious drama or a scary monster show. You can mix genres successfully, I just don't feel it on this one.
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Sep 21, 2020 18:21
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:It doesn't matter if it's reflective of the world back then, because it's media produced in and for 2020. If your protagonist is a homophobe and does not face immediate repercussion for their homophobia, then you've produced homophobic media. Yes, Good characters should be 100% good and Bad characters should be 100% bad. Oh wait, no, that's dumb.
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Sep 21, 2020 19:30
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Open Source Idiom posted:Why were those tentacles furry!?!? She’s a fox spirit op
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Sep 21, 2020 20:28
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Power Walrus posted:This show kinda feels like it’s made by people who feel uncomfortable in horror. I don’t expect it to be scary, but I do expect it to try and holy moley the bad cg tentacles and her seeing this guys life of family and climbing mountains before he pops like a water balloon Are you saying bad CG (is the CG even bad?) and a montage of someone's life... indicate the show is not comfortable with horror? I don't understand this in any way. And about the prestige drama bit --- are you saying that it's trying to be like Game of Thrones? The show that slow rolled its magic and weirdstuff until it barfed it up and sucked rear end? I feel like I have completely different expectations for this show than anyone complaining about it. To me this poo poo is more like The Good Place than it is Westworld. poo poo is fun and funny even if it deals with hosed up poo poo. I tear up a lot about stuff but honestly that scene before they smashed? Yeah a little emotional about the confessions. Extra lol about the oops-not-the-whole-story reveal later.
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Sep 21, 2020 20:32
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I like this show, I don’t mind the back and fourth about writing and character, I don’t have much of a stake (outside of basic human empathy of course) in any arguments outside of the single mention of Prince Hall, but it’s still enriching to hear people’s perspectives who, in a way, live some of this real life horror in their community. There’s a ton of teaching moments in Lovecraft Country, if that brings it up to the status of “HBO high drama” then it has done its job. This last episode was the easiest for someone who’s taken a Kirkland Sleep aid to follow lol. The three (or more?) simulated sex scenes with full frontal female nudity are total HBO True Blood, no more or less porny IMO. My wife refers to TB as vampire porn when taking about it with her family, are we a couple more seasons away from calling this monster porn? Maybe. Rape as revenge is not cool to depict, it seemed like a really hamfisted move. I figured that was more of a semisexualized murder, because of the pretty likely death from sepsis later. Regardless, I don’t see the point of that over some other kind of revenge that doesn’t involve someone’s pegging fetish. I’m starting to see lots of dark sides here with Tic’s time in the military. There’s a lot of the Nuremberg defense there defending Tic in his participation in torture. I wasn’t expecting it, and didn’t even recognize Tic at first when he was called up to shoot the lady. He was just another green army man holding a rifle. It was the reaction shot of his pained eyes after he did it where I realize it was our old friend Atticus. Good acting on his part, that’s a complex look to give in a closeup. The whole drama that followed was not too much for me to suspend disbelief either. It was all an easier pill to swallow than the Monty Murder Scene, but that might just my distance from one situation and my ability to relate to the other. I can still feel myself in Tic’s boots, but being a person driven by self hatred to murder someone because they’re a symbol of difference and fear of the unknown is just too far off. I really hope they tie that one up better. The last line of the episode got me excited for more of this character’s story, and the fox lady who’s clearly the princess of Mars in the first episode’s opening scene is def gonna be a main character soon. Makes so much sense now. The CGI with her tails holding men in the air was cartoony at best, it had the mismatched glow of bad CGI on my OLED tv, so... that’s a little campy, like the Tarantino levels of blood that water ballon out of her victims, but the glowing CGI pulls me out of the immersion way more than any goofy blood. I’m still onboard and really curious about this new character. Best episode so far IMO.
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Sep 21, 2020 21:08
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Beefeater1980 posted:Yes, Good characters should be 100% good and Bad characters should be 100% bad. Your post is indeed dumb. Not sure of its relation to mine though? (real dumb post lol)
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Sep 21, 2020 21:38
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:Your post is indeed dumb. Not sure of its relation to mine though? No your posts are exceedingly dumb and most of the people in the thread have told you that already. Anyway this last episode ruled and it made me kind of wish that the entire show was anthology vignette based instead of an over arching story. I kind of wanted to watch a story about the demon girl instead of how she related to Atticus. It'd also allow the show to jump around for different social injustice time periods than just the 50s.
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Sep 21, 2020 21:57
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Doltos posted:I kind of wanted to watch a story about the demon girl instead of how she related to Atticus. Had a real Porny Pinocchio vibe. Would watch.
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Sep 21, 2020 22:03
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Doltos posted:No your posts are exceedingly dumb and most of the people in the thread have told you that already. Pissing contests reflect poorly on all involved, friend. Just slam that Ignore button and move on  There's a difference between IASIP characters and those who "get away with" bigotry To the second half of your post, this show IS an anthology vignette, given how faintly the overarching story is woven through the episodes.
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Sep 21, 2020 22:07
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Imagine hate watching this show lol Edit: wow anothergod fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Sep 21, 2020 |
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Sep 21, 2020 22:23
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anothergod posted:Imagine hate watching this show lol I haven't gotten much of a hate-watcher vibe from the posters in here. Seems like mostly positive reception, some luke-warm to mildly critical posts, and a very small number of people who said they stopped watching & then also stopped posting?
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Sep 21, 2020 22:27
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I'm still enjoying the show a lot. The action/fantasy/lovecraftian horror bits are fun and intriguing, while the true horror is the racism playing out in what would otherwise feel almost like an Indiana Jones series. Even a literal demon ended up being a more relatable character than Sherriff Hunt. Doltos posted:No your posts are exceedingly dumb and most of the people in the thread have told you that already.
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Sep 21, 2020 22:41
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anothergod posted:Imagine hate watching this show lol At risk of sounding self absorbed, is that wow directed at me? This is one of my favorite shows on television, even if I find some of the characters weak and/or problematic.
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Sep 21, 2020 23:12
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Moltke posted:I'm still enjoying the show a lot. The action/fantasy/lovecraftian horror bits are fun and intriguing, while the true horror is the racism playing out in what would otherwise feel almost like an Indiana Jones series. Even a literal demon ended up being a more relatable character than Sherriff Hunt. Yeah I keep saying that's both the best and worst problem with the show. The lovecraft stuff legitimately isn't nearly as scary as the racist stuff. Just the checkpoint/communist scene in this episode alone was more frightening than anything since the Sundown Town in episode 1. GoGoGadgetChris posted:Pissing contests reflect poorly on all involved, friend. Just slam that Ignore button and move on No one's doing a pissing contest they're all just pointing out that you're dumb. Atticus isn't getting away with bigotry, he's a flawed character with a messed up upbringing. You can't separate that fact and it seems like a weird personality issue at this point.
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Sep 21, 2020 23:23
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Doltos posted:Yeah I keep saying that's both the best and worst problem with the show. The lovecraft stuff legitimately isn't nearly as scary as the racist stuff. Just the checkpoint/communist scene in this episode alone was more frightening than anything since the Sundown Town in episode 1. I don't agree with any of this post but I graciously accept the free rent in your head, I suppose. Well, that's not fair - I agree with the first part. The lovecraft stuff is the stage dressing of the show, the racism is the horror/the content. It's a very well done mix and I think if they played up the lovecraftian elements any harder it would detract from the meat of the show.
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Sep 21, 2020 23:28
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Really didn’t like what Tic did in this ep. Kinda ruins the show a bit for me now. Montrose was one thing, but he’s not the protagonist who we’re supposed to be rooting for. I don’t really give a poo poo about Tic now.
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Sep 22, 2020 02:38
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The show is good and I like it, warts and all.
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Sep 22, 2020 03:58
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I don't necessarily see the show as a heroes vs villains thing, so I don't really mind that many of the leads are frequently terrible people. Like, he's a soldier who served in Korea. What did anyone think was happening there? Pretending like he was some lovely guy isn't commensurate with that history, nor with his attitude to that war. It's much better than what we saw in Watchmen last year, which was way more gentle to its protagonists (and, if I'm honest, less honest). In terms of tone -- the horror isn't the sqwletchy monsters. That's often because the sqweltchy monsters are the thing that Lovecraft associated with minorities. You can't go "OOGA BOOGA A FURRY TENTACLE LASS FROM THE MYSTICAL ORIENT" in a Lovecraftian work without also saying "I'M A MASSIVE RACIST!". So it reinflects the entire thing with camp. Essentially this was about how conservative Korean discourse can depict certain kinds of women as Other -- unwed women, sexually abused women, sexually active women, even queer women -- but it uses irony in its depiction of one such woman as a monster. If she was actually scary, then the episode would be committing an own goal. The real horror, as has been mentioned, is the violence she suffers at the hands of others. The real Lovecraftian Dread here is the way she's exploited by American Imperialism (he favourite musicals are army musicals), or by her mother and conservative social peers. Does she become the monster that everyone claims she must be, or can she turn it around? I also think Tic being revealed as a war criminal is more effective because he is, otherwise, likable. It's a more nuanced presentation of racism committed by a character who we don't -- and clearly doesn't himself -- consider to be murderous and racist. Yet that's what he is.
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Sep 22, 2020 04:17
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Yea so far Tic, Montrose, Leti, and Ruby are all flawed characters. Tics prone to anger and is a war criminal. Montrose beat his kid and is most likely insane from dealing with occult stuff. Ruby did the whole violent anal rape thing. Leti keeps getting accused of abandoning people but so far she's arguably the most classically 'good' out of all the leads. Flawed characters is a great tool to achieve relatable motivations to the audience. Montrose was a man of his day. Not everyone beat their kids back then but many did. His harsh upbringing of Tic drove a wedge between their characters that shows up in the dialogue. Him being a big bummer drag is because the writers are showing the effects of going slowly mad from occult dealings. Tic resorts to violence as a mean to an end because of his upbringing. A man prone to anger out in the Korean war probably won't think rationally around potential spies, especially when there are others like him in the unit. Ruby being full on revenge porn makes sense because she's constantly oppressed. She sees what it's like to live on the other side, objectively sees that her competition for the one job at a department store isn't nearly as good as she is, and then sees the oppression that would happen to her if she even got the job in the first place. She takes out all her anger and frustration on a dude's butthole. Was it right? No, but it was believable. All this stuff opens up new paths for writers to go down. Way better than stodgy good characters or characters that are just plain evil for evils sake.
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Sep 22, 2020 06:55
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We talked about it with Montrose last week, but the cycle of violence (together with the racism, of course) may be one of the most Lovecraft-like monsters in the show: it's a gigantic, inevitable evil that hides under the pretense of normalcy. Everyone in the show - Leti aside, at least for now - has a horrible secret that has been passed down onto them as some sort of legacy.
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Sep 22, 2020 09:53
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Dude was a Private. Torturing a spy wasn't considered to be a war crime in the 50s. He wasn't planning the war crimes and would have faced repercussions if he didn't participate in the war crimes. This doesn't justify his actions, but it does help explain it. He is clearly dealing with the trauma of what he did in the war and on a different planet than Montrose.
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Sep 22, 2020 13:05
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:Dude was a Private. Torturing a spy wasn't considered to be a war crime in the 50s. He wasn't planning the war crimes and would have faced repercussions if he didn't participate in the war crimes. They really should have had him refuse and have his gun taken from him or something (to then shoot the woman), maybe then even have his war injuries be from his fellow soldiers. The fact they had him defend himself with the tired old “just following orders” poo poo is disgusting. JazzFlight fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Sep 22, 2020 |
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Sep 22, 2020 15:35
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I just don't know with this show. I think it might be bad - the tone is all over the place both within episodes and episodes to episode - its like it doesn't want to be as campy a la AHS but still wants to have some comedic elements... but it just doesn't work. Also Montrose is just a badly written character (he's one dimensional and awful! but now he's gay!) and having Tic be a war criminal also just doesn't work. And the woman falls in love with him... despite him murdering her friend? For reasons? I mentioned this before but the tone problems remind me a lot of Hunters, although this is a better show. I guess at least there was some good elements of body horror in episode 5.
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Sep 22, 2020 15:38
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:I just don't know with this show. I think it might be bad - the tone is all over the place both within episodes and episodes to episode - its like it doesn't want to be as campy a la AHS but still wants to have some comedic elements... but it just doesn't work. Also Montrose is just a badly written character (he's one dimensional and awful! but now he's gay!) and having Tic be a war criminal also just doesn't work. And the woman falls in love with him... despite him murdering her friend? For reasons? Montrose is a monster sure but badly written? He's very realistic.
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Sep 22, 2020 15:44
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:Dude was a Private. Torturing a spy wasn't considered to be a war crime in the 50s. He wasn't planning the war crimes and would have faced repercussions if he didn't participate in the war crimes. One of my rationalizations for the consistently anachronistic soundtrack is to bring the horrible, horrible past into view from a very forward oriented mindset. JazzFlight posted:Uhhh, did you miss the part where he shot a begging innocent nurse who wasn’t a spy in the head? The horror in this show isn't spooky atmosphere and jump scares. It's finding out you liked someone who is a horrible person. I am loving stunned by how many people can't handle a flawed character. Did no one else have to read Chaucer or any of the other (few) books I did? That Italian Guy posted:We talked about it with Montrose last week, but the cycle of violence (together with the racism, of course) may be one of the most Lovecraft-like monsters in the show: it's a gigantic, inevitable evil that hides under the pretense of normalcy. Everyone in the show - Leti aside, at least for now - has a horrible secret that has been passed down onto them as some sort of legacy. ^^^^ Btw, did anyone else catch Atticus' lies in the flashback? Dude definitely lied to Jiah about being a virgin. I think there's more in there, but IDK. Kinda weird? IDK. Now that Leti is the last remaining protagonist that isn't tainted, I am really hoping she's not the "girl who everyone assumes is lovely but is actually a good girl virgin".
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Sep 22, 2020 15:46
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anothergod posted:One of my rationalizations for the consistently anachronistic soundtrack is to bring the horrible, horrible past into view from a very forward oriented mindset. Nah, they ruined Tic. You can’t say he had a complicated past and have it be that dark as just killing civilians for no reason. That’s hosed up.
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Sep 22, 2020 15:49
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If I were a black army private in an active combat zone in the fifties, I would simply hold true to the moral standards of seventy years in the future and stoically accept my measured and reasonable fate.
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Sep 22, 2020 16:07
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The logic of the whole spy scene has been bothering the poo poo out of me. The soldiers are obviously prepared to shoot all of the nurses. Otherwise they wouldn't start with someone random and begin killing equally randomly. They don't know who the spy is, so they could have killed her with the first shot. Yet they still ask for confessions after that? At this point why not just murder everyone. That way the spy is neutralized, and they plainly don't care if they nurses live or die anyway so they don't lose anything they weren't prepared to lose. And most importantly, they don't come off as insane cartoon villains completely ruinging all immersion.
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Sep 22, 2020 16:35
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JFC - Tic isn't the architect of the holocaust. The Nuremberg defense didn't work because commanders DO have agency on what orders they follow. The concept is known as "Command Responsibility." Tic, as the literal lowest rank in the military, has no agency. He is clearly upset by what he had to do. This doesn't excuse his action, but you people are idiots if you think you would have acted differently in his situation. Tic is a flawed character - this is nothing new. The sky isn't falling because he's not perfect. Moltke fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Sep 22, 2020 |
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Sep 22, 2020 16:35
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socialsecurity posted:Montrose is a monster sure but badly written? He's very realistic. People keep talking about "cycle of violence", but I feel like this series is missing about 45 minutes of characterization that actually develops this with Montrose, especially the first three episodes. I don't know if this is because of bad editing, bad writing, or what, but waiting until episode 5 to finally develop some characterization for Montrose... as a way to I guess humanize him? provide some backstory? is just clumsy. Like, perhaps less montages set to modern music and more scenes that move the plot forward. It feels like theres no transitions between scenes, plots - no setup.
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Sep 22, 2020 16:39
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I dunno, I got the subtext that Montrose was alternatively abusive and absent in episode 1.
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Sep 22, 2020 16:42
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The dude literally stands over a burning trashcan and mutters, "...smells like Tulsa..." and people here are still saying they can't figure out why he acts like he does. This show is amazing as gently caress, and has been pretty good about not looking away from the hosed up things ALL people did and still do. It keeps getting repeated here, and in The Root's analysis of the episodes that the real monster is the way we transfer our own oppression onto people below us. If you are shocked that Tic's all black unit was cruel and violent to people they could act out that violence on, then you haven't been paying attention to what the show is repeating over and over.
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Sep 22, 2020 16:55
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:People keep talking about "cycle of violence", but I feel like this series is missing about 45 minutes of characterization that actually develops this with Montrose, especially the first three episodes. I don't know if this is because of bad editing, bad writing, or what, but waiting until episode 5 to finally develop some characterization for Montrose... as a way to I guess humanize him? provide some backstory? is just clumsy. Yes, the absent and abusive father acting absent and abusive during the series is a problem with "bad edit, bad writing, or what" and definitely not a problem with your comprehension of the material. We learned in ep 5 that he has a motivation for being absent and abusive. What is the difference between an absent and abusive character and an absent and abusive character with a motivation?
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Sep 22, 2020 16:57
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JazzFlight posted:Uh, I think it was showing flashbacks, then showing his future, where he then slept with women (may even have been a shot of Leti). I don’t think he was lying about the virgin thing. They really didn't ruin him. They might have ruined him for you, but you seem to be unwilling to accept a flawed character. You don't have to cheer for Tic. You don't even have to feel bad for him. The point of his character is you have to understand him and the reasons he does his actions in the story. It's really bizarre how much people reject a flawed character, especially a realistically flawed one. It's like none of these people ever talked to someone from the 50's before. Chances are if youre over the age of 70 you're probably a little bit racist, homophobic, violent, etc.
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Sep 22, 2020 17:34
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It wouldn't surprise me if a Private in Tic's situation escaped charges for the same conduct today. The officers and NCOs would probably be hosed but people are severely underestimating the institutional inertia on a private to do what he or she is told.
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Sep 22, 2020 17:43
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Moltke posted:
uh, in this shows setting, the Geneva conventions were expanded just a year or so before the start of the Korean war, fresh from the lessons of Nuremberg, so if anything Tic would have had humane treatment of prisoners and non-combat civilians drilled into his head and that "just following orders" would still get him at the end of a noose for the very thing he just did. soldiers have a duty to refuse unlawful orders. I don't believe that just randomly executing Korean nurses with multiple witnesses wouldn't get him loving nailed to the wall by his COs. at the very least it should have showed more hesitation on his part, instead of just lining them up on their knees and executing them lol. the show's devolved pretty rapidly from a promising ep 1. i tried to give it another shot with this ep but as someone else said, felt it was pretty lethargic and didn't really do anything other than weaken the characterization of Tic and further highlight the show's internal inconsistencies. ex post facho fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Sep 22, 2020 |
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Sep 22, 2020 17:53
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ex post facho posted:uh, in this shows setting, the Geneva conventions were expanded just a year or so before the start of the Korean war, fresh from the lessons if Nuremberg, so if anything Tic would have had humane treatment of prisoners drilled into his head and that "just following orders" would still get him at the end of a noose for the very thing he just did. There were war crimes all over Korea, Vietnam, and Arabia. The Nogeun-ri massacre was a whole regiment of Americans firing on a bunch of civilians trying to hide beneath a bridge. This is pretty close minded thinking.
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Sep 22, 2020 18:02
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ex post facho posted:uh, in this shows setting, the Geneva conventions were expanded just a year or so before the start of the Korean war, fresh from the lessons of Nuremberg, so if anything Tic would have had humane treatment of prisoners and non-combat civilians drilled . it was pretty lethargic and didn't really do anything other than weaken the characterization of Tic and further highlight the show's internal inconsistencies.  Weird how the U.S. might hold off on ratification during a shooting war. Thankfully it got signed before Vietnam so there were no more war crimes.
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Sep 22, 2020 18:03
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ex post facho posted:uh, in this shows setting, the Geneva conventions were expanded just a year or so before the start of the Korean war, fresh from the lessons of Nuremberg, so if anything Tic would have had humane treatment of prisoners and non-combat civilians drilled into his head and that "just following orders" would still get him at the end of a noose for the very thing he just did. soldiers have a duty to refuse unlawful orders. I don't believe that just randomly executing Korean nurses with multiple witnesses wouldn't get him loving nailed to the wall by his COs. This isn't the point I'm making at all and not believing there would be no repercussions for Tic from his COs is laughable, because in the show he has not suffered any. This sort of thing continues to happen in 2020.
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Sep 22, 2020 18:03
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