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Hydaelin's summoners didn't object to the Zodiark plan on moral grounds, but simply because they felt it was insufficient in preventing another Final Days. as stated by her summoners, she exists to bind Zodiark, and since primals are entirely defined by their summoners' wishes it's entirely possible she'd try to stop any attempts at permanently destroying Zodiark because that would invalidate her reason for being
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Sep 22, 2020 17:29
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Wait I thought they explicitly did object to the plan on moral grounds
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Sep 22, 2020 18:02
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Badger of Basra posted:Wait I thought they explicitly did object to the plan on moral grounds They did. I don’t know where the “it won’t prevent another calamity” is coming from
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Sep 22, 2020 18:08
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thetoughestbean posted:They did. I don’t know where the “it won’t prevent another calamity” is coming from They might have, but one of the summoners says something like "the fools of the Convocation don't realize Zodiark is just a temporary solution" in 5.2.
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Sep 22, 2020 18:26
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AstrialJam posted:They might have, but one of the summoners says something like "the fools of the Convocation don't realize Zodiark is just a temporary solution" in 5.2. I always figured Zodiark was going to ultimately extinguish them all by continually demanding more sacrifice, so while he may have saved them from the original problem, they now needed a solution to their new one. Even if it wasn't going to be quite that total, Zodiark enslaving his summoners by tempering them was pretty ominous too. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Sep 22, 2020 |
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Sep 22, 2020 18:51
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"By the summoning of Zodiark we have been granted a reprieve. Yet immutable as the laws He has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom" "Nay. Should we continue down this path, our fate will be the same. I said as much to the Convocation, of course, but the stubborn fools turned a deaf ear to my warnings. "I shall not speak ill of the Convocation -- they too seek only to secure the future of our star. Yet it is plain they will not countenance a permanent solution. That being the case, we must ask ourselves a simple question: are we prepared to pursue our chosen course, even should it mean suffering the eternal condemnation of our brethen? If so, I see no further reason to demur. Let us bring forth the Light that shall ever after keep the Darkness in check." if the whole sacrificing new life to bring back the old thing was a problem to the Hydaelin faction, they did not say so and it is at best a secondary concern to the Zodiark plan being a band-aid solution in their eyes.
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Sep 22, 2020 18:57
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When the whole point was summoning the Light to keep the Darkness in check, to me that says they're concerned with what the Darkness is doing. We've seen no indication that The Sound or whatever the gently caress the original problem was continued to be an issue, but that Zodiark itself had become the new threat to their civilization. It was a temporary reprieve in the sense that the solution was now itself a problem, even if the original problem was no longer an issue.
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Sep 22, 2020 19:00
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quote:Yet immutable as the laws He has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom. quote:Yet it is plain they will not countenance a permanent solution. Seems pretty clear they don't think Zodiark's rewriting the laws of reality are enough of a solution, and they're not permanent. They don't say anything about Zodiark being worse, or Zodiark leading to new problems.
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Sep 22, 2020 19:08
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Is this going to be a midgardsormr thing where someone looks at other languages and they're super straightforward about it e: actually what's the cutscene called/where is it in the book. I'll switch my client to german
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Sep 22, 2020 19:09
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Seems pretty clear they don't think Zodiark's rewriting the laws of reality are enough of a solution, and they're not permanent. They don't say anything about Zodiark being worse, or Zodiark leading to new problems. When has it ever been suggested that Hydaelyn did anything other than counter Zodiark though? And the sundering of course, but I always wondered if that was actually the cost of summoning her and not just a side effect of her battle with Zodiark.
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Sep 22, 2020 19:14
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I believe it is Hythlodaeus that says that the Hydylaen summoners objected to sacrificing the new life to revive the Amaurotians and summoned her to stop it
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Sep 22, 2020 19:17
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Sinteres posted:When has it ever been suggested that Hydaelyn did anything other than counter Zodiark though? And the sundering of course, but I always wondered if that was actually the cost of summoning her and not just a side effect of her battle with Zodiark. The sundering fundamentally changed existence, likely far more than Zodiark's work did. It probably goes well beyond just defeating Zodiark and more into a long term solution for life.
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Sep 22, 2020 19:38
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The sundering fundamentally changed existence, likely far more than Zodiark's work did. It probably goes well beyond just defeating Zodiark and more into a long term solution for life. I don't think the sundering has ever been presented as a good thing, and will be surprised if that happens. I mean it certainly wasn't any solution for the Ascians other than a Final Solution since it tore all their souls apart.
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Sep 22, 2020 20:14
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the sundering was real bad, and the fact that it was done to prevent a different real bad thing doesn't mean it wasn't horrendous itself
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Sep 22, 2020 20:34
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https://twitter.com/StormYorha/status/1308200503462027265
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Sep 22, 2020 20:53
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I'm pretty sure the Sundering was presented as an accidental casualty of the fight between Zodiark and Hydaelyn, though I think there's a decent chance we see it revealed as deliberate on Hydaelyn's part/possibly what she did to draw energy to fuel herself for the fight. lmao Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Sep 22, 2020 |
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Sep 22, 2020 20:54
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I thought the sundering was portrayed as deliberate, but also the only way to stop Zodiark. It's never been presented as a good thing for the world though, only a bad thing for Zodiark. Who, to be fair, is kind of technically the embodiment of the world. Like "sundering the world" is straight-up Hydaelyn's main superpower. You also see this in the Eden 8 fight, both in the phase transition and also all her moves in Hydaelyn form. Clarste fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Sep 22, 2020 |
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Sep 22, 2020 22:19
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In fairness, the world's hub cities have gotten way more interesting since the Sundering.
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Sep 22, 2020 22:24
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I think that's more of a case of the ancients' architect sucking
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Sep 22, 2020 22:31
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Sep 22, 2020 23:07
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So I just finished 5.3 finally. Really happy that G'raha managed to avoid not one but two death flags. I hope that the plot manages to finagle Ryne coming over somehow, though, because she seemed to really work well with the rest of the group. edit: Oh, someone posted a picture of a lalafel holding the staff with Exarch, was curious about that ImpAtom posted:He was a primal dedicated to spreading heroism as a counterpart to the Ascian's villainy in order to achieve their overall goals though. How does this work exactly? I never figured out how this would help the Ascians in any way. Isn't the only thing important to them managing to cause the big catastrophes by making one of the shard worlds overflow with a particular type of aether? Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Sep 23, 2020 |
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Sep 23, 2020 07:52
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Ytlaya posted:How does this work exactly? I never figured out how this would help the Ascians in any way. Isn't the only thing important to them managing to cause the big catastrophes by making one of the shard worlds overflow with a particular type of aether? they're trying to create controlled opposition. the escalation of conflict heroes engage in will do a lot of the work in preparing a calamity while also counterbalancing to prevent a total loss like what happened with the void. unsundered ascians aren't killable by normal means so they can play heel and take a fall as many times as they want if it furthers their goals.
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Sep 23, 2020 08:09
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CYBEReris posted:they're trying to create controlled opposition. ...just like Obama...
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Sep 23, 2020 08:24
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When was it mentioned about Ardbert and party killing a couple Ascians? Saw some posts mentioning this, but I don't remember it.
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Sep 23, 2020 08:47
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Ytlaya posted:When was it mentioned about Ardbert and party killing a couple Ascians? Saw some posts mentioning this, but I don't remember it. The capstone quest for the ShB role quest mentions it I believe Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hDTq5oLcRY&t=1935s
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Sep 23, 2020 08:48
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Seems pretty clear they don't think Zodiark's rewriting the laws of reality are enough of a solution, and they're not permanent. They don't say anything about Zodiark being worse, or Zodiark leading to new problems. It seems fairly clear to me that as we're going to more exploration of the primal natures of Zodiark and Hydaelyn. Zodiark is described to us as the "will of the star", but that doesn't really fill in the whole picture. With Ga Bu, we've seen that personalities and drivers of primals reflect the motivations of the summoners, and aren't just embodiments of Platonic ideals. In Zodiark's case, it seems like a big part of its fundamental concept is the idea of (external) salvation through sacrifice. That being the case, it follows that Zodiark can't or won't produce "permanent" solutions: it requires that there be crises that lead to demands for salvation, possibly up to and including its tempered followers manufacturing situations where Zodiark can be argued to be the only option. To some extent, we see that in Elidibus' MO: introducing monsters and problems such that there is a demand for heroes to appear. The nature of Hydaelyn is a lot less clear. My pet theory at the moment is that she is something like the Platonic ideal of "death to Zodiark" combined with a motivation of "humanity can take care of itself." This is why, outside the Sundering itself, she is largely a passive actor: even in crisis situations, she can't act directly without contradicting her own nature. What we see over and over is that the most she does is provide tools for the use of those who have managed to reach out to her through their own abilities.
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Sep 23, 2020 09:08
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Dedekind posted:The nature of Hydaelyn is a lot less clear. My pet theory at the moment is that she is something like the Platonic ideal of "death to Zodiark" combined with a motivation of "humanity can take care of itself." This is why, outside the Sundering itself, she is largely a passive actor: even in crisis situations, she can't act directly without contradicting her own nature. What we see over and over is that the most she does is provide tools for the use of those who have managed to reach out to her through their own abilities. I thought it was pretty spelled out that she was summon "to stop Zodiark" and therefore that's what she does. Like I wouldn't even really call that less clear than Zodiark's nature.
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Sep 23, 2020 09:13
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MadFriarAvelyn posted:Everyone keeps saying Elidibus was just some kid, but he's got a pretty deep voice for one. It fits better with the JP voices. His JP voice could pass for a teenager's voice and has a generally "immature" sort of sound to it.
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Sep 23, 2020 09:55
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Ytlaya posted:It fits better with the JP voices. His JP voice could pass for a teenager's voice and has a generally "immature" sort of sound to it. Also he's not really the Amaurotine who became Elidibus any more anyway - he's more like a living wish than a person when we meet him.
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Sep 23, 2020 10:33
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Clarste posted:I thought it was pretty spelled out that she was summon "to stop Zodiark" and therefore that's what she does. Like I wouldn't even really call that less clear than Zodiark's nature. I agree that is her underlying concept, but my point is that we know that the manifestation of those concepts can vary significantly depending on the intent of the summoner (e.g. Titan). If there was nothing to Hydaelyn beyond “stop Zodiark,” why did she not simply kill the Unsundered ages ago? We know primals can do so, that fragments of her power now are sufficient to oppose Ascians, and that she is weaker now than she was around the time of the first Calamity. My feeling is that there’s something in her “personality” overlying that core concept that explains why she chooses to work through WoLs rather than acting directly. I mean, I’m most likely utterly wrong; the team are much better at storytelling than I am so I don’t have faith in my ability to anticipate them. But by the same token, it’s also why I think we will end up exploring nuance in Hydaelyn’s nature.
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Sep 23, 2020 10:34
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:The capstone quest for the ShB role quest mentions it I believe I think it also comes up in passing in the original Warriors of Darkness story.
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Sep 23, 2020 11:15
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Yeah, I think when you first meet them you get an Echo of them killing an Ascian
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Sep 23, 2020 11:41
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Ytlaya posted:edit: Oh, someone posted a picture of a lalafel holding the staff with Exarch, was curious about that Just to reiterate:  G'raha accommodates even the smallest of heroes. 
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Sep 23, 2020 19:34
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There are no small heroes, just unfinished tales of heroism!
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Sep 24, 2020 06:05
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G'raha is, himself, a very smol hero.
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Sep 24, 2020 17:11
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Jetrauben posted:G'raha is, himself, a very smol hero. https://clips.twitch.tv/BashfulCoweringTildeTBCheesePull
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Sep 25, 2020 18:30
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am i the only one who was extremely surprised that when the WoL gathers all of the scions' souls in auracite and crosses back to the Source, we didn't get a HOME..... RIDING HOOOOOOMMMEEEEE...... scene?
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Sep 27, 2020 14:56
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Because of the debate (lol) I've been listening to "To the Edge" and the specific line, "On hands and knees we pray to gods we've never seen" has made me tear up uncontrollably I am really relating to Amaurot right now
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Sep 30, 2020 05:03
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https://mobile.twitter.com/FF_XIV_EN/status/1314163946040033282 https://mobile.twitter.com/FF_XIV_EN/status/1314176673475108865 Wonder if they're previewing a new class with that bloke? Might also link back to Ran'jit, too.
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Oct 9, 2020 09:58
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I finished 5.3 a few weeks ago and I am still thinking about how great the Shadowbringers music is. Graha Tia is such a good devoted boy and Eternal Wind somehow captures his efforts and sacrifices and rewards so well. The way it's used as a dramatic heroic guitar solo in the Shadowbringers theme is so cool, since both the main story's climax and the 5.3 finale have him and the Warrior of Light working together to save the day. Also, I adore the idea that for all this insane multi-dimensional poo poo that involves a species of Q progenitor gods, a time-space traveling crystal ark, an underwater copy of a utopian city, and face-eating apocalypse angels--the ultimate payoff for all of it is that this bookish catboy, who loves stories about heroic deeds but had to give up on having any kind of free life, gets to finally just be your friend and go on adventures with you. It's the most Final Fantasy friendship-and-found-family thing ever and I love it 
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Oct 10, 2020 01:31
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