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Yeah I don't have a problem with him considering the contract, but that he doesn't seem to actually put much of any thought at all into what his end of the deal would be. Like its a bit of jarring writing to have right after the scene where he sees through the fake Rem. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Sep 23, 2020 |
# ? Sep 23, 2020 19:09 |
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# ? Apr 19, 2024 03:53 |
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# ? Sep 23, 2020 19:25 |
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# ? Sep 23, 2020 20:10 |
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Kind of wondering what the mechanics of magically enforced contracts actually are in this world. It seems unusual for this type of thing that Echidna could even try to set one up without telling Subaru all the terms and conditions. (And I think Subaru's being a little harsh on Echidna here. Almost everyone he knows is pursuing an idiosyncratic set of goals, to the detriment of conventional morality.)
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# ? Sep 23, 2020 20:13 |
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Raxivace posted:Yeah I don't have a problem with him considering the contract, but that he doesn't seem to actually put much of any thought at all into what his end of the deal would be. It really seems like if he had just really hashed out what the contract would entail and negotiated the terms some he could have come out okay. Though I’m honestly not 100% sure what his side of the deal was. Was she going to take control of his body or just ask him to mess around in some of the loops and maybe do some unsavory stuff? Though saying you’re going to get the best ending seems to necessitate also taking the best path. Like if he has to torture his friends or something evil to get the “best ending” then that’s probably not the best ending.
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# ? Sep 23, 2020 20:23 |
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Raxivace posted:A very good episode. He knew it wasn't smart but he really, really, from the bottom of his heart wanted to just trust her. Pummeled after everything, he just wanted to let this lady - his only confidant re RbD and who has already saved him twice - help him without questioning her motives. An answer of sorts to the ongoing concern everyone around Subaru has with how he tries to shoulder everything. Contrast with their very first meeting where he disengaged the very first chance he got.
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# ? Sep 23, 2020 20:29 |
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Conspiratiorist posted:He knew it wasn't smart but he really, really, from the bottom of his heart wanted to just trust her. Pummeled after everything, he just wanted to let this lady - his only confidant re RbD and who has already saved him twice - help him without questioning her motives. An answer of sorts to the ongoing concern everyone around Subaru has with how he tries to shoulder everything. Can't blame him really. I really hope though he ends up negotiating a "lite" version just so we can have Echidna tagging along with Subaru for the ride. Even better if she feels what he feels for Higurashi no koro ni shenanigans where the shinto girl ate really spicy food to mess with her guardian spirit. A version where she gets to tag along and chime in seems like a win-win scenario to me where he's not obligated to do anything she tells him. What's interesting is that the contract reminds me of the deal (Webcomic Order of the Stick spoilers) Varsuuvius got with the three fiends where three epic spellcasters joined up to their spirit. Feels very similar on a host of levels.
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# ? Sep 23, 2020 20:40 |
So Echidna seems to also imply that Subaru isn't really traveling through time per se but jumping cross parallel universes and leaving the hosed up ones behind when he dies. If this is so it's extremely hosed up and puts a whole new twist on him trying to avoid getting killed.
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# ? Sep 23, 2020 20:48 |
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Nitrousoxide posted:So Echidna seems to also imply that Subaru isn't really traveling through time per se but jumping cross parallel universes and leaving the hosed up ones behind when he dies. Roswaal had already reached the same conclusion despite not knowing about Return by Death. After all, he said that he wouldn't accomplish his goals, but the next him would. He was fully aware that the different loops had different "themselves", rather than just being plain resets. Echidna's visions only confirm that.
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# ? Sep 23, 2020 20:56 |
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Nitrousoxide posted:So Echidna seems to also imply that Subaru isn't really traveling through time per se but jumping cross parallel universes and leaving the hosed up ones behind when he dies. Not quite. Echidna says its a possibility, as its perhaps emotionally the worst possible outcome for Subaru personally to have to deal with that level of guilt and its what the Trial threw at him, but we don't know if its actually the case, only Satella would know.
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# ? Sep 23, 2020 21:23 |
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360 no scop Echidna deal no drawbacks guaranteed
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# ? Sep 23, 2020 22:16 |
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Decent chance the next ep will get me to get the books.
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# ? Sep 23, 2020 22:21 |
Raenir Salazar posted:Not quite. Echidna says its a possibility, as its perhaps emotionally the worst possible outcome for Subaru personally to have to deal with that level of guilt and its what the Trial threw at him, but we don't know if its actually the case, only Satella would know. I mean, it seems like the more plausible read on how things have ended up for him. Echidna knows about events that should have been erased from time. If instead he is just traveling across parallel worlds then it stands the reason she might be able to know about those. He also retains passing the trials across resets which doesn't make a whole lot of sense if time is resetting but makes a whole heck of a lot more sense if he's shifting across universes. If that's the case then his world line is omnidirectional and from his perspective he passed the trials in the past perfectly fine.
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# ? Sep 23, 2020 22:30 |
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Nitrousoxide posted:I mean, it seems like the more plausible read on how things have ended up for him. Echidna knows about events that should have been erased from time. If instead he is just traveling across parallel worlds then it stands the reason she might be able to know about those. He also retains passing the trials across resets which doesn't make a whole lot of sense if time is resetting but makes a whole heck of a lot more sense if he's shifting across universes. If that's the case then his world line is omnidirectional and from his perspective he passed the trials in the past perfectly fine.
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# ? Sep 23, 2020 23:00 |
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Yeah, that's likely what's happening: Echidna only exists across timelines through Subaru, which is what makes her so interested in him. Walking into her tomb gives her access to his brain, so every time he loops it's as if he's suddenly exploded with ever growing data on alternate realities for her to pick apart. The trials likewise are a "test" that happens all in one's own mind - Subaru knows he's passed them, therefore she knows he has.
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# ? Sep 23, 2020 23:53 |
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Conspiratiorist posted:Yeah, that's likely what's happening: Echidna only exists across timelines through Subaru, which is what makes her so interested in him. Walking into her tomb gives her access to his brain, so every time he loops it's as if he's suddenly exploded with ever growing data on alternate realities for her to pick apart. That and his "save point" is right after he passed the first test.
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 00:12 |
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Rudoku posted:That and his "save point" is right after he passed the first test. still, he was able to update his pact of echidna so that he would remember the tea parties even after new loops echidna's realm clearly exists outside of conventional time
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 00:22 |
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I hope we eventually get a read on why Elsa is so mind-bogglingly overpowered. So far Julius is the only one who has been a match for her.
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 00:48 |
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Disconnecticus posted:I hope we eventually get a read on why Elsa is so mind-bogglingly overpowered. So far Julius is the only one who has been a match for her. Reinhard. Julius hasn't met Elsa.
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 01:14 |
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Blaze Dragon posted:Reinhard. Julius hasn't met Elsa.
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 01:18 |
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Disconnecticus posted:I hope we eventually get a read on why Elsa is so mind-bogglingly overpowered. So far Julius is the only one who has been a match for her. I'm not sure anyone she killed was "good at fighting" by this setting's standards.
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 01:26 |
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Disconnecticus posted:I hope we eventually get a read on why Elsa is so mind-bogglingly overpowered. So far Julius is the only one who has been a match for her. Reinhardt you mean. Julius never met her. Reinhardt we also know is overpowered given that the alt history shows him effortless defeating Puck.
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 01:31 |
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Disconnecticus posted:I hope we eventually get a read on why Elsa is so mind-bogglingly overpowered. So far Julius is the only one who has been a match for her. She's very fast and has mostly gone up against mages with seemingly no combat experience who stand perfectly still and just throw a lot of projectiles. Granted, she was able to win a tag team match against Ram and Fredrica, but that just means she's at least stronger than 1 maid. sirtommygunn fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Sep 24, 2020 |
# ? Sep 24, 2020 01:52 |
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Disconnecticus posted:I hope we eventually get a read on why Elsa is so mind-bogglingly overpowered. So far Julius is the only one who has been a match for her. Honestly that's just the nature of the setting. It's like what if instead of being in a generic fantasy world Subaru was put into the Forgotten Realms I repeat myself and tripped over Elminster, Blackstaff, Drizzt, Gromph, Artemis etc in a row.
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 02:07 |
Raenir Salazar posted:Honestly that's just the nature of the setting. It's like what if instead of being in a generic fantasy world Subaru was put into the Forgotten Realms I repeat myself and tripped over Elminster, Blackstaff, Drizzt, Gromph, Artemis etc in a row. Its also like what if instead of being in a generic fantasy world Subaru was put into the Malazan and tripped over Quick Ben, Karsa, Rake, Cottilian , Icarium etc in a row
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 02:28 |
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Disconnecticus posted:My mistake, but the question still stands - she slaughters Echidna's spirit creation without a problem after getting fully disassembled by her, takes out everyone else at the mansion without breaking a sweat, etc etc. I'm guessing she has a get out of death free power like Reinhardt apparently has (is it a spoiler if Isekai Quartet and Break Time told me about it but the show doesn't?)
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 02:39 |
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Rudoku posted:(is it a spoiler if Isekai Quartet and Break Time told me about it but the show doesn't?) e: oh, Break Time too. idk but you probably should've put the warning before the tags, rather than after
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 02:46 |
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M_Gargantua posted:Its also like what if instead of being in a generic fantasy world Subaru was put into the Malazan and tripped over Quick Ben, Karsa, Rake, Cottilian , Icarium etc in a row I don't know those people though. I know OF Marazan, my character in the last campaign decided to retire there.
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 03:01 |
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I agree that it's probably possible to negotiate a better deal with Echinda. Since even if he doesn't promise her a billion lifetimes of torture to satisfy her curiosity, she still gets way more out of tagging along with him than she does not doing that. Then again, I guess it would be hard for Subaru to trust her advice knowing that she may inflict eternal torture on his friends at any time for no reason.
Clarste fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Sep 24, 2020 |
# ? Sep 24, 2020 06:12 |
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Her reasoning is so alien he'd have to constantly fear/scrutinize any advice given.
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 07:11 |
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Mindblast posted:Her reasoning is so alien he'd have to constantly fear/scrutinize any advice given. That, and she’s only concerned about the end without consideration for the means. She’d be perfectly fine with treating some of his lives as throwaways, used solely for information gathering, and we’ve seen how those potentially end up.
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 07:31 |
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Hence why a lesser version that's more fair can still be worth it, as long as she doesn't have control over him so the final decision is with him. Subaru is the one with leverage in that she wants to be able to leave the Tea Party and be a sort of Force Ghost able to experience new things again. Regardless of her alienness, she's still valuable to have literally in his back pocket as an ally. He knows the risks now and has sufficient information to make decisions based off of what she says.
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 07:45 |
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Yeah, assuming that she doesn't get control over his body somehow, the worst case scenario is just that he does exactly what he's been doing so far except she's always nagging him to run off into the woods and eat weird berries or whatever.
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 07:55 |
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“subaru you got to eat the eggs”
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 08:14 |
Beware a deal with the devil for he is far more clever than you could hope to be.
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 12:05 |
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I loved the episode, but the idea that Echidna is kind of an knowledge hungry blank slate that wholly lacks empathy or emotional attachment to anything didn't really gel with me. Just look at how Subaru interacted with her at the beginning of the season. I thought it was pretty clear that his flirtatious attitude got to her, even it she was nominally more interested in what he could do to expand her knowledge base.
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 13:39 |
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AlternateNu posted:I loved the episode, but the idea that Echidna is kind of an knowledge hungry blank slate that wholly lacks empathy or emotional attachment to anything didn't really gel with me. Just look at how Subaru interacted with her at the beginning of the season. I thought it was pretty clear that his flirtatious attitude got to her, even it she was nominally more interested in what he could do to expand her knowledge base. I understood that in the sense that she has the knowledge to know how to go through the motions of faking being touched by his attitude, but it's not genuine. Of course, an argument could be made that she isn't actually a blank state per se, but she still fakes a lot of emotion and is mainly cold and calculating. Being the target of Subaru's banter is something she might not be used to, so she could be showing a bit of the real Echidna in those moments.
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 13:59 |
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I took it as she's far from emotionless, but she doesn't really understand why she should care about other people, especially if it gets in the way of her obsessions (plus being in Ghost Jail for however long can't have helped). For now, I'm assuming she's a bad person, rather than anything truly inhuman.
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 14:16 |
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We've seen a bunch of Subaru interacting with witches and I can't recall any of them saying anything but what (to them) is the Truth. I don't think you could even explain to them the concept of what a 'lie' is. Echidna truly loves him and want him to have everything he wants, unless I'm forgetting something in their interactions?
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 14:59 |
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# ? Apr 19, 2024 03:53 |
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I see it as Genuinely liking Suburu is a completely separate matter from not understanding his suffering as bad, because he can learn and experience what no-one else can via "Return by Death" ISN'T THAT AMAZING?
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# ? Sep 24, 2020 15:15 |