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This episode is best seen after House of Quark because it sets up a character important to the story, but Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places has a fair bit to like; comedic in a smart way, features Worf, Star Trek take on a classic story, and features Michael Dorn's trademark bad fake-fighting moves. Armin Shimerman actually spent a day or two with a fight choreographer for the episode, and Michael Dorn presumably winged it, and it really shows when they're juxtaposed. It also starts the most believable and tolerable Star Trek romance in the entire franchise, but that's more important for episodes after this one.
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# ? Sep 25, 2020 17:46 |
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# ? Apr 25, 2024 07:26 |
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Hell with it, in addition to the other one, I'll also risk six hours of my posting life on Civil Defense. It's standalone, shows the entire cast doing their thing, and is just generally a whole lot of fun. The premise is that, during routine maintenance, the crew accidentally triggers an old Cardassian anti-insurgency program from the bad old days when DS9 was a Bajoran labor camp, which turns the station's defenses against them and also triggers a lot of speeches by Gul Dukat.
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# ? Sep 25, 2020 17:59 |
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I'm gonna start doing some watches this weekend. I'll report back later with my findings and rewards (or probations). This is shaping up to have a good number of episodes on the list!
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# ? Sep 25, 2020 18:25 |
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Take Me Out To The Holosuite op when my choice inevitably wins just kick the 20 bucks or whatever to RAINN under the name "Cpt. Benjamin Sisko" (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Peanut President fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Sep 25, 2020 |
# ? Sep 25, 2020 21:20 |
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OP, you missed Trials and Tribble-ations on your watch list post. Unless you secretly already watched it, loved it, and bought the novelization
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# ? Sep 25, 2020 21:53 |
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mercenarynuker posted:OP, you missed Trials and Tribble-ations on your watch list post. Unless you secretly already watched it, loved it, and bought the novelization Good catch, not sure why I missed it.
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# ? Sep 25, 2020 21:56 |
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by the time you get through all of those you are going to not want to watch the rest of the show because youve seen all the good stuff, lol edit; also if you made it to s2 and you said "i liked some episodes" you have almost certainly already seen duet which is cleanly the best episode of both seasons
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# ? Sep 25, 2020 23:24 |
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Maybe. I dunno, I watched all of Enterprise based only on really liking some of the episodes.
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# ? Sep 25, 2020 23:26 |
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yeah it was tongue in cheek. ds9 has more character development than other treks, i think, and other episodes will contextualize the good ones, so they all end up being worth it to see
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# ? Sep 25, 2020 23:51 |
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Best two characters were Quark and Garak. Sometimes Morn
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 00:21 |
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mercenarynuker posted:Best two characters were Quark and Garak. Sometimes Morn Morn was great, I just wished he'd shut up once in a while and give the other regulars at the bar some breathing room. https://twitter.com/therealsobreiro/status/1007620705347948544?s=19
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 04:07 |
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All right. I got summoned in the Tumblr-star-trek thread. So I'm going to participate, in a way. But ultimately, this is half an explanation and half a confession. First, explanation: Deep Space 9 is simply not a Trek that is all that fun if you approach it with a shotgun approach to episodes. It's compelling because of its broader themes, which often take time, and because of its characters, where the characterization needs gradual breathing room to develop and in some cases to change. There's no "great Dukat" episode, singular, without knowing who Dukat is and his relationship with other people. I love "Civil Defense" but it is entirely an episode that plays on character dynamics you already know, and because it provides contrast to more serious episodes. I really like "Once More Unto the Breach", but unless you understand Martok and his role in the show, it's only mildly interesting. For a character to become a great character, we need to see them in a variety of circumstances, making a variety of choices, so we get to intuitively understand them beyond what we're told about them. Much more than TNG, every DS9 character represents a set of values and to some extent an ideology. (e.g., Garak is realpolitik.) Similarly, the themes of DS9 are usually not self-contained. The major themes are certainly not self-contained. Now let's just segue into the confession: I do not like Deep Space 9 as intended. I think this is where some people get tripped up. I love TOS (my favorite) and like TNG. I like them as intended. I like them the way they were, essentially, designed to be liked. I think, if I were in a conversation with the writers and the showrunners, we'd mostly be on the same page about what the episodes are doing, why they're doing it, and the message that was communicated in the process. (More so for TOS than TNG, where I do think TNG has not always aged well and/or more often, in the interests of "complexity", TNG semi-regularly told a really messed-up moral that doesn't adhere to its own purported internal logic). I do not like Deep Space 9 "as intended". I think DS9 is a great idea, in theory. It's a deconstruction, on its face. It makes no bones about that; Sisko dang near says as much, to Picard, in the pilot. (Or when he punches Q.) And I generally agree with the things that Deep Space 9 tells you it is saying. What I love about Deep Space 9 is that it always shows you, the opposite. Of its own theme. It has characters say and do things with a fascinating level of self-righteousness, despite often being shown to be wrong, in their own universe, without the show apparently being aware of this. It's a deconstruction that got the "moral of the story" right, and tells you what the moral is, but doesn't realize that's not the story it just showed you. Take for example, this post from our Anonymous Zebra: Anonymous Zebra posted:While it's fun and all that we're talking about TNG in the DS9 thread, I figured I'd try and get things a back on track with a hot take: Anonymous Zebra posted:The Federation, Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians combined were no match for The Dominion. The combined powers didn't beat The Dominion, they beat a tiny fragment that was cut off from the rest by space gods living in a wormhole, and only at a huge cost. Remember, there was always an existential threat that MORE ships were just sitting on the other side of the wormhole, and the only thing stopping that was a minefield and later The Prophets. I think that post is exactly right. Now, I do think they showed a Dominion where war is inevitable. But then they have other characters act like they've correctly identified that it's inevitable (e.g. Tain), and they're punished for it. The actions of the Federation are only excusable if it was inevitable. Huh?? Over and over, DS9 tries so hard to "break down" the TNG-era Federation and writing style and approach. And time and time again, it congratulates itself for doing so, despite setting up a scenario that is obviously rigged, but rigged against their own conclusion. Their overall conclusion is, I think, almost always right, but they structure something that forces the opposite, and never seem to realize it. Not just that these things are decoupled: the exact opposite. It's not a 1:1, it's a 1:-1. It happens with the Maquis. It happens with the Dominion War. It happens with Dukat. It happens with Kira. It happens over and over and over. It's honestly baffling. I've never seen anything like it. I've been way into DS9 for like two years and chat about it almost every day with my fellow ds9 buddies, but the well never runs dry on how vast the divide is between what the show thinks it's doing and what it's actually doing. The actual logical implications of what it's actually showing you are bizarre on closer examination. I find DS9 incredibly compelling, incredibly engrossing, because it's this, but a show: It knows the right answer but absolutely shoots itself in the dick for seven seasons getting there. So do I like Deep Space 9? In a lot of ways........................ no, actually. But I LOVE to discuss deep space 9. So anyway, "House of Quark" is pretty good. Pick fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Sep 26, 2020 |
# ? Sep 26, 2020 04:33 |
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This is bullshit, Pick. You haven't even talked about how those Vulcans are loving pricks about baseball Edit: spoilers, Vulcans are loving pricks about baseball
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 04:41 |
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Oh, also OP, I don't really like "gray Federation" much myself. I see the Federation as aspirational, which was best communicated to the audience in TOS. That's why TOS is my favorite (and TAS my second-favorite!) Focusing on the Federation per se too much, I think, is a mistake. I think the Federation is a set of deals which people like Admiral Cartwright can fail. But that its ideals are fundamentally good, and people are good for adhering to them.mercenarynuker posted:This is bullshit, Pick. You haven't even talked about how those Vulcans are loving pricks about baseball I actually do not like that episode, or the heist episode, at all . I also find the baseball episode fascinating in the context of being bookended by an existential war, the exact situation where victory is not "the friends you made along the way" and "trying your best". Pick fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Sep 26, 2020 |
# ? Sep 26, 2020 04:43 |
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oh and if you don't like "the wire" you're a homophobe. go to jail.
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 05:02 |
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I was kinda hoping you'd pick one but if your pick was in that giant quote block i'm not gonna read that cause I want to finish my list fresh. After my contest is over I'll come back and talk about that. But the way that quote started made it sound like it was going to explain like, half the show to me at once. Trials and Tribbulations was a very interesting take on the whole time travel thing. The way they filmed it like the old style was pretty cool. I'm also apparently a sucker for odd couple stories. Which covers both House of Quark and The Ascent. Past tense might have earned a but the whole brutal crushing force of capitalism and police brutality kinda hit close to home right now. I've already seen Move Along Home, otherwise it might have failed totally. The visitor was an interesting story but in the end everything was undone.
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 06:25 |
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Well Manicured Man posted:Morn was great, I just wished he'd shut up once in a while and give the other regulars at the bar some breathing room. lmao, would unironically wear that shirt
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 07:14 |
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CainFortea posted:I was kinda hoping you'd pick one but if your pick was in that giant quote block i'm not gonna read that cause I want to finish my list fresh. After my contest is over I'll come back and talk about that. But the way that quote started made it sound like it was going to explain like, half the show to me at once. well no, capt sisko still has the memories of the entire ordeal, which is why hes so explicitly emotional at the end, cause hes the only one who remembers exactly what jake did
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 07:15 |
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CainFortea posted:Past tense might have earned a but the whole brutal crushing force of capitalism and police brutality kinda hit close to home right now. I'm sorry. I like those episodes because my favorite sci-fi takes swings at current issues. I will say that Past Tense does end on a positive note because the Bell Riots are one of the events that help bring Humanity out of the poo poo and into the stars (as well as lets Avery Brooks show off his acting chops). The other events? Well, one involved a drunk, warp speed, rock and roll, and some very confused Vulcans. Far Beyond the Stars is another great episode IMHO because it's another that is very blatant and brutally hammers home how awful and ridiculous racism is. It's another weird vision/time travel episode that takes place in 1950s Earth. It also is another episode that lets Avery Brooks act, and man...his soliloquy as an African American author defending the idea that a black man in the future could and should be able to command a space station is one of my favorite Trek moments. It's hammy, it's heartfelt, and it's Star Trek. It's Sisko's "There are four lights!" moment.
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 07:27 |
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Bogus Adventure posted:I'm sorry. I like those episodes because my favorite sci-fi takes swings at current issues. I will say that Past Tense does end on a positive note because the Bell Riots are one of the events that help bring Humanity out of the poo poo and into the stars (as well as lets Avery Brooks show off his acting chops). The other events? Well, one involved a drunk, warp speed, rock and roll, and some very confused Vulcans. It's also basically made out of tributes to classic science fiction, with the overall plot being very similar to the story surrounding EC Comics' Judgement Day, and the other magazine writers are clear analogues to various other science fiction writers. (Mostly just remember O'Brien is supposed to be Isaac Asimov)
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 08:22 |
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It's also basically made out of tributes to classic science fiction, with the overall plot being very similar to the story surrounding EC Comics' Judgement Day, and the other magazine writers are clear analogues to various other science fiction writers. (Mostly just remember O'Brien is supposed to be Isaac Asimov) It's a beautiful episode, and my kind of Star Trek.
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 09:30 |
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Verviticus posted:well no, capt sisko still has the memories of the entire ordeal, which is why hes so explicitly emotional at the end, cause hes the only one who remembers exactly what jake did It seemed to me that he didn't because when Jake asked him how he knew to dodge he looked kinda baffled and said "I don't know" Bogus Adventure posted:I'm sorry. Don't feel sorry! Like, I still watched the whole thing. It just didn't feel great to watch. I did rather enjoy Kira and O'Brian time jumping.
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 14:40 |
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Is funny that despite being established as a stone cold resistance fighter since childhood and outright femme fatale when necessary, Kira can't blend in as a human to save her life.
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 15:32 |
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CainFortea posted:Don't feel sorry! Like, I still watched the whole thing. It just didn't feel great to watch. I did rather enjoy Kira and O'Brian time jumping.
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 19:41 |
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I mean, there's also all the episodes where Miles O'Brien gets sadistically tortured. Those are funny, in the sense that the writers are needlessly punishing this dude for no discernible reason
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 22:21 |
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By the by, I guess I wasn't clear. mercenarynuker FunkyAl mysterious frankie Ya'all get to pick someone who submitted an episode on the watch list for a 6er. CainFortea fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Sep 26, 2020 |
# ? Sep 26, 2020 22:32 |
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Ghost Leviathan, for the crime of making me remember Paradise, the only episode to just make me mad every time I think of it, I sentence you to a sixer
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 22:49 |
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Do you like Star Trek courtroom dramas? How about Worf being accused doing something bad? And how about Ron Canada playing Klingon Lawyer? Then try Rules of Engagement Season 4, Episode 18
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 22:51 |
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I choose Pick, for not recommending an episode E: Just saw the recommend for "house of quark," decision remains the same but is now arbitrary
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 23:18 |
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FunkyAl posted:I choose Pick, for not recommending an episode Unfortunately it seems you did not pay attention to the...ahem....Rules of Engagement...of this competition. You have to.......Pick........someone from the actual watch list on the OP. Or you can wait and see if Pick actually recommends and episode and gets on the list.
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 23:19 |
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I did, I did recommend House of Quark. It is actually internally thematically coherent, fun, and has quite a bit of characterization even in 47 minutes. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 23:21 |
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FunkyAl posted:I choose Pick, for not recommending an episode
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 23:22 |
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CainFortea posted:Unfortunately it seems you did not pay attention to the...ahem....Rules of Engagement...of this competition. You have to.......Pick........someone from the actual watch list on the OP. Or you can wait and see if Pick actually recommends and episode and gets on the list. P sure I was the first one to recommend House of Quark.
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 23:24 |
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mysterious frankie posted:P sure I was the first one to recommend House of Quark. You are absolutely correct! Thank you for pointing that out. Recommendations were coming in pretty wild and wooley at that time and I messed that all up. I'll fix the OP. Pick posted:I did, I did recommend House of Quark. Sounds like Pick is onboard so I'll go ahead and do it this time. Besides, it's Pick. Pretty sure you spend more time probed than unprobed.
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# ? Sep 26, 2020 23:29 |
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AlternateNu posted:Edit: I would also highly recommend season 6, episode 19, In the Pale Moonlight, but not for this request because it requires knowledge of the series up to that point and hits the "morally gray" side of the Federation that OP dislikes. But Avery knocks it out of the park. This episode really is like the top tier DS9. And while its morally grey, it definitely not moustache twirling evil. Its Sisko realizing what morals he's willing to sacrifice to end the war. He doesn't just go out full bad guy, but you can see him constantly falling down the sunk cost fallacy path over the whole episode as he wrestles with his decisions. Even the start of the episode has him trying to decide if what he did was worth it. It also has some top tier garrack in it. Though you definitely need some dominion war episodes beforehand to really appreciate it.
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# ? Sep 27, 2020 03:04 |
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I agree with the common wisdom that In the Pale Moonlight is the best episode of all of Star Trek but like most of DS9's best, you have to have watched the entire show to that point to get it. Watching it in isolation wouldn't work. E: If you haven't watched it before, I will suggest season 2 episode 22, The Wire. If you have already seen that one, then let's go to the double length season 4, episode 1/2, The Way of the Warrior. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Sep 27, 2020 |
# ? Sep 27, 2020 03:18 |
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CainFortea posted:You are absolutely correct! Thank you for pointing that out. Recommendations were coming in pretty wild and wooley at that time and I messed that all up. I'll fix the OP. Aw yeah! Now I’m gonna get what I deserv... USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST
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# ? Sep 27, 2020 04:11 |
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Well, I'm goin right back in that box. (Don't mean to cry persecution, I just couldn't resist the opportunity to make the reference) Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Sep 27, 2020 |
# ? Sep 27, 2020 05:42 |
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Well, I'm goin right back in that box. Props, it was a good reference and got a laff out of me
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# ? Sep 27, 2020 19:18 |
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# ? Apr 25, 2024 07:26 |
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CainFortea posted:It seemed to me that he didn't because when Jake asked him how he knew to dodge he looked kinda baffled and said "I don't know" i had to load it up cause i forgot exactly what he said but it was "i guess we were just lucky this time" which is probably the right response instead of "i just watched you commit suicide after spending 40 years of your life alone researching how to save me and in the process abandoning your wife and career and obliterating your reality" but his emotional near-breakdown wouldnt make sense if he didnt know what happened Elmnt80 posted:This episode really is like the top tier DS9. And while its morally grey, it definitely not moustache twirling evil. Its Sisko realizing what morals he's willing to sacrifice to end the war. He doesn't just go out full bad guy, but you can see him constantly falling down the sunk cost fallacy path over the whole episode as he wrestles with his decisions. Even the start of the episode has him trying to decide if what he did was worth it. It also has some top tier garrack in it. Though you definitely need some dominion war episodes beforehand to really appreciate it. while i think the visitor is the best episode of star trek they've made i think in the pale moonlight is the best ds9 episode and the most enjoyment ive ever gotten out of an episode of star trek. if you've seen every episode of ds9 and you know just how much the war is affecting everyone on the station and how much episodes like the ship and sacrifice of angels and even paradise lost have affected sisko its a really good culmination of the themes within Verviticus fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Sep 28, 2020 |
# ? Sep 28, 2020 00:57 |