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Your mistake is thinking a flat performance is bad
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Oct 3, 2020 11:55
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Star Wars claims to be set in space, but the constant presence of normal gravity and breathable atmospheres indicates that the entire series takes place on Earth, and all of the characters are either delusional or being misled by some unknown manipulator into believing they are on other planets.
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Oct 3, 2020 14:22
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:Also, you can take movies at their word. A movie isn’t a person, the idea of having a singular intent that you can trust or not trust is incorrect.
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Oct 3, 2020 14:23
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porfiria posted:I'm 95% sure this conversation has been had before, but faster than light travel is arguably even more impossible than telekinesis. Telekinesis is simple, you just need a film projector.
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Oct 3, 2020 17:39
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josh04 posted:This does notably happen at the start of episode 6. It does. But in the same scene, it works very well, gets called out by name ("an old Jedi mind trick"), and then Luke uses the Force to steal a blaster in front of a crowd.
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Oct 3, 2020 22:49
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YOLOsubmarine posted:A movie isn’t a person, the idea of having a singular intent that you can trust or not trust is incorrect. For over a thousand generations, Ted and Wanda did indeed love each other. Before the dark times, before the separation.
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Oct 4, 2020 00:44
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Angry Salami posted:Star Wars claims to be set in space, but the constant presence of normal gravity and breathable atmospheres indicates that the entire series takes place on Earth, and all of the characters are either delusional or being misled by some unknown manipulator into believing they are on other planets. ACTUALLY... The Gunner stations on the Millennium Falcon in ANH are shown on screen to be under a different form of artificial gravity than the rest of the ship. We see Han climb it and the gravity suddenly shift so he's now crawling out of it and can shout "across" it to Luke who went down the ladder. And the same windows they're looking out of are facing straight out the top and bottom of the ship from the cockpits perspective, but are forward facing from the perspective of the people inside. It's a cool trick that you'd think any Sci-Fi setting with "Artificial Gravity" would take more advantage of. I'd like to see a ship interior that's like an M.C. Escher drawing.
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Oct 4, 2020 04:30
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PeterWeller posted:It does. But in the same scene, it works very well, gets called out by name ("an old Jedi mind trick"), and then Luke uses the Force to steal a blaster in front of a crowd. Or do he just steal the blaster so fast, it's as though he uses the Force to steal it? (I'm kidding, he uses the Force to steal it.) galagazombie posted:ACTUALLY... The Gunner stations on the Millennium Falcon in ANH are shown on screen to be under a different form of artificial gravity than the rest of the ship. We see Han climb it and the gravity suddenly shift so he's now crawling out of it and can shout "across" it to Luke who went down the ladder. And the same windows they're looking out of are facing straight out the top and bottom of the ship from the cockpits perspective, but are forward facing from the perspective of the people inside. It's a cool trick that you'd think any Sci-Fi setting with "Artificial Gravity" would take more advantage of. I'd like to see a ship interior that's like an M.C. Escher drawing. As a kid, this was always one of my favorite things about ANH, once I realized what was happening. Like, it blew my little kid mind, and reframed how I saw how gravity worked on the ship. Which felt massive to someone...however old I was at the time, but young.
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Oct 4, 2020 13:04
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galagazombie posted:ACTUALLY... The Gunner stations on the Millennium Falcon in ANH are shown on screen to be under a different form of artificial gravity than the rest of the ship. We see Han climb it and the gravity suddenly shift so he's now crawling out of it and can shout "across" it to Luke who went down the ladder. And the same windows they're looking out of are facing straight out the top and bottom of the ship from the cockpits perspective, but are forward facing from the perspective of the people inside. It's a cool trick that you'd think any Sci-Fi setting with "Artificial Gravity" would take more advantage of. I'd like to see a ship interior that's like an M.C. Escher drawing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSvPxNopdHs&t=35s huh what the gently caress  I've seen this movie how many times and I never noticed that before?!?!?
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Oct 4, 2020 16:38
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I vaguely recall reading an essay about the gravity well in the Falcon a long while back, and haven't ever given it more than a moment's thought before or since
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Oct 4, 2020 18:59
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:If the force isn't real the movie would demonstrate this by having it fail at some point. "Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the Rebels' hidden fortress." The dude's right: Vader doesn't have clairvoyance, and can't conjure poo poo. But maybe The Force simply works in mysterious ways, since Vader does eventually find the hidden fortress where the stolen tapes are kept? Finding the base is ironic, though, since it leads to the destruction of the Death Star - but Vader hates the Death Star, and this chain of events leads him to Luke and the ultimate defeat of the Emperor. And it's equally possible that The Force wanted Palpatine to survive?! So: did Vader fail, or did Vader succeed? While you're asking for 'a demonstration of failure', what we're really talking about is falsifiability. In the big scene in question, Vader raises his hand, the gun flies from Han's grip, and Han just stands there with a shocked/dazed expression when he realizes Vader is now holding the gun. Right off the bat, the claim that Vader "called upon God" (i.e. "used The Force") to make a gun jump from Han's grip is unfalsifiable. Anything can be attributed to God's influence. I can say that a tennis ball falls to the Earth after I've dropped it because God made it so. So, we can push that aside and start with some simpler falsifiable assertions. Vader has already been established as a master mesmerist/hypnotist, whose technique involves raising his hand and staring at someone until they choke. It's established that this even works on hostile, cynical atheists. Based on what we're shown, I'd say Han has been hypnotized.
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Oct 4, 2020 19:39
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I think the "force" can be interpereted almost literally; a force, like gravity, that affects the movement of other bodies. Vader is dressed like a black hole and thus is powerful enough to attract guns like a planet would a moon or a ring. When Jedi die they turn into light beasts, like how star's light is just reaching us now.
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Oct 4, 2020 22:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Vader has already been established as a master mesmerist/hypnotist, whose technique involves raising his hand and staring at someone until they choke. It's established that this even works on hostile, cynical atheists. Based on what we're shown, I'd say Han has been hypnotized. I do love the theory that the Jedi/Sith are basically just the Bene Gesserit from Dune. Really looking forward to the takes on that movie when it comes out.
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Oct 5, 2020 01:46
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:"Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the Rebels' hidden fortress." ah so vader doesn't have the magic power to move objects only the magic power to instantly hypnotise people into thinking he did
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Oct 5, 2020 12:19
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Death Vader is Corran Horn
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Oct 5, 2020 12:25
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Elfgames posted:ah so vader doesn't have the magic power to move objects only the magic power to instantly hypnotise people into thinking he did This distinction was very important for Uri Geller, for instance.
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Oct 5, 2020 13:07
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OTOH the engineering needed to create the Death Star is definitely supernatural.
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Oct 5, 2020 13:28
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The Death Star is really just a giant lightsaber
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Oct 5, 2020 13:32
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YaketySass posted:OTOH the engineering needed to create the Death Star is definitely supernatural. someone skipped the chapter on durasteel in engineering school
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Oct 5, 2020 13:58
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Elfgames posted:ah so vader doesn't have the magic power to move objects only the magic power to instantly hypnotise people into thinking he did The joke is more that is equally plausible from what we see and while funny doesn't actually make it any less impressive, since Vader can hypnotise someone to death. The United States posted:The Death Star is really just a giant lightsaber This is literally a thing in Rogue One, since the Empire is raiding an old Jedi temple on Jedda (and then blowing it up) specifically to acquire the same crystals used for the lightsabers to complete the Death Star's superlaser.
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Oct 5, 2020 14:11
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FunkyAl posted:I think the "force" can be interpereted almost literally; a force, like gravity, that affects the movement of other bodies. Well yeah; that’s what’s shown on the prequels - specifically when Anakin and Obiwan stop, build up power, and then repel eachother like magnets. It’s that literal animal magnetism. But, back in the OT, we are presented with three very different ideas of how magical things work. We’ve already gone over Episode 4, but it bears repeating that Han’s a conman, Vader’s a hypnotist, Obiwan’s a conman/illusionist/hypnotist, etc. There’s an extremely heavy emphasis on trickery. The first “force power” we ever see is Obiwan waving his arms in a makeshift ghost costume and making spooky sounds to scare people. Astonishing! In the sequel, we get a rather sudden shift into altered states of consciousness. The first “force power” occurs as Luke is freezing to death after a traumatic head injury. Later, Yoda sends him on a ‘vision quest’ - which implies that Luke is under the influence of something like fasting, sleep deprivation, or hallucinogens. A good chunk of Yoda’s training involves pushing the trainee into a state of physical and mental exhaustion, then making them stare at rocks for hours - which is some obvious cult initiation stuff. Consequently, reality itself is getting distorted - at times of high stress and intense concentration. Visual hallucinations overtake the auditory. Elfgames posted:ah so vader doesn't have the magic power to move objects only the magic power to instantly hypnotise people into thinking he did Right - except that it’s not instantaneous; Han spends several seconds standing there and shooting while Vader does his hand motions. I‘ve been reading some of Sigmund Freud’s early (pre-analytic) experiments in hypnosis, and one part stood out: a man was successfully hypnotized and told something like “you will put both thumbs in your mouth later today”. When he eventually did this, without memory of the command, the man apologized and explained that he was doing this because his tongue was injured. Freud observed that the hypnotized person does the act compulsively, and then comes up with a rationalization as to why they did it (in order to preserve the experience of free will?). So if Han is put into a trance and wakes up disarmed, he may ‘fill in the blanks’ this same way, with the idea of a flying gun. The first “force power” shown in Episode 6 is Luke using something like Vader’s hypnotism from Episode 4, but genuinely instantaneous and effortless. He just points at the guards and they immediately stumble around having seizures or something. Consequently, it doesn’t read as hypnotism anymore. Where would Luke have learned that stuff anyways? Luke’s also not under duress, as in Episode 5, so what‘s being conveyed is a detachment from the violence he’s doing. From Luke’s perspective, it’s just a tiny motion of his hand, and God has chosen that these people die. In this sense, Luke is “self-hypnotized” - self-deluded, in keeping with his new idea of “a certain point of view” that he uses to justify Obiwan’s various lies. If there’s no truth, then Leia can be his sister and Vader loves liberalism, etc. Episode 6’s thing is theatricality and storytelling: the stuff Luke tells himself to stay sane, the stuff they tell the Ewoks to make them fight, etc. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Oct 10, 2020 |
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Oct 5, 2020 14:22
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SMG still really, really needs to read Dune.
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Oct 5, 2020 15:04
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The Force = Universal Life Force = Chi
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Oct 5, 2020 15:11
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Ghost Leviathan posted:SMG still really, really needs to read Dune. Agreed
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Oct 5, 2020 15:21
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Maybe Vader just hypnotized the audience into thinking there was a movie.
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Oct 5, 2020 18:01
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Ghost Leviathan posted:SMG still really, really needs to read Dune. but why though. SMG will/can diagnose those books in parsecs flat. the dunes are just a workprint script for a glorious moving picture space opera that will never be properly adapted (lynch failed marvelously, harrison & yaitanes did bleh-aight, and villeneuve's only possible salvation is if he *doesn't* get green-lit to go past the 'cliffhanger').
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Oct 5, 2020 18:08
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Bene Gesserit: Here is the boy prophesied to [moments later] Bene Gesserit: Wait, no! Not like that!
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Oct 5, 2020 18:36
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Qualia posted:but why though. SMG will/can diagnose those books in parsecs flat. the dunes are just a workprint script for a glorious moving picture space opera that will never be properly adapted (lynch failed marvelously, harrison & yaitanes did bleh-aight, and villeneuve's only possible salvation is if he *doesn't* get green-lit to go past the 'cliffhanger'). I'm always surprised more people don't pick up on the fact that Dune gets pretty boring after the big attack midway through.
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Oct 5, 2020 20:01
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porfiria posted:I'm always surprised more people don't pick up on the fact that Dune gets pretty boring after the big attack midway through.  Jessica's trip through the Water of Life, Paul's 'afk spice coma' and the Baron getting played by Fenring are the best parts of the first book
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Oct 5, 2020 20:19
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Eason the Fifth posted:
Reading about people doing psychedelics is really boring.
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Oct 5, 2020 20:36
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porfiria posted:Reading about people doing psychedelics is really boring. This is the majority of the series, and what makes Children, Messiah, and God Emperor unique and far more interesting than every other generic sci-fi franchise out there. Eason the Fifth fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Oct 5, 2020 |
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Oct 5, 2020 20:44
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I have pretty good reading comprehension but when I tried to read through Dune a few years ago I'd read pages and pages and have no idea what just happened or what I read.
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Oct 5, 2020 21:25
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well yeah; that’s what’s shown on the prequels - specifically when Anakin and Obiwan stop, build up power, and then repel eachother like magnets. It’s that literal animal magnetism. But, back in the OT, we are presented with three very different ideas of how magical things work. To that point though, the movie is pointing to the "real" power of the cinema as being one of altered conciousness. It is possible to say Lucas is a big believer in the value of storytelling through an anthropoligical lens and the whole Joseph Campbell kinda thing. Thus the Empire Strikes Back is full of the oldest tricks in the book, puppets and fog and background paintings, and psychically moving a big ship and many partial or differently sized models through trick photography. However, because it is beautiful, everyone is willing to believe it. I think it is the most popular one because of this, and consequently there is the vision quest stuff you mentioned and han solo spends a lot of time playing around in wile e. coyote dreamspace, gets chased by a lizard, a sock puppet, is tortured for comedy etc. But by the end they are fighting in symbolic fire, smoke and fog and red lights. After these thousands of years and staring at a brick wall for two hours, we are enjoying a shadow puppet show and nobody notices, or if they do they enjoy it. And it's compelling there actually was a guy named yoda on dagobah. How COULD luke's crazed vision have known? How did Hamlet's dad know about the ear poison?
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Oct 6, 2020 05:30
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Was it not a force magic power thing when Luke could hear Obi-Wan from behind the grave and then make some impossibly hard shot with his eyes closed?
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Oct 6, 2020 06:45
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FunkyAl posted:To that point though, the movie is pointing to the "real" power of the cinema as being one of altered conciousness. It is possible to say Lucas is a big believer in the value of storytelling through an anthropoligical lens and the whole Joseph Campbell kinda thing. Thus the Empire Strikes Back is full of the oldest tricks in the book, puppets and fog and background paintings, and psychically moving a big ship and many partial or differently sized models through trick photography. However, because it is beautiful, everyone is willing to believe it. I think it is the most popular one because of this, and consequently there is the vision quest stuff you mentioned and han solo spends a lot of time playing around in wile e. coyote dreamspace, gets chased by a lizard, a sock puppet, is tortured for comedy etc. But by the end they are fighting in symbolic fire, smoke and fog and red lights. After these thousands of years and staring at a brick wall for two hours, we are enjoying a shadow puppet show and nobody notices, or if they do they enjoy it. Seems almost easy to forget that Star Wars basically created the effects-heavy blockbuster epic as we know it, especially as ESB is when it went from just one huge hit to a powerhouse franchise of serial storytelling. It may have drawn from many things- Kurosawa, Westerns, Dune, war movies, the Muppets, pulp adventure fiction- but it all came together into something new.
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Oct 6, 2020 07:51
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Glottis posted:Was it not a force magic power thing when Luke could hear Obi-Wan from behind the grave and then make some impossibly hard shot with his eyes closed? Luke used to bullseye Womp Rats in his T-16 back home, it's no big deal.
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Oct 6, 2020 08:37
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https://youtu.be/euVpCyu245U I found something.
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Oct 6, 2020 10:35
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rewatching the original trilogy has made me realise how easy making the prequels and sequels should have been. these movies aren't complex at all, how the gently caress did they mess it up so badly both times? i feel George and Disney probably spent more effort, time and money making terrible movies than they would have making simple, well written and coherent trilogies. there's a hero in both in a weird and wacky sci-fi fantasy world, they get wrapped up in a situation that's bigger than them that gives them purpose, they go through some revelations, get pushed to their breaking point from confronting those revelations, and then either in the prequels they fail and become the villain, or in the sequels keep strong and eventually win over the villain. someday the prequels will get remade and it'll be trivial and mindblowing to everyone how easily they'll be made good by just keeping it simple.
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Oct 6, 2020 15:31
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Why dream of a remake? You can have your mind blown by how good the prequels are today.
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Oct 6, 2020 15:56
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Hefty Leftist posted:rewatching the original trilogy has made me realise how easy making the prequels and sequels should have been. these movies aren't complex at all, how the gently caress did they mess it up so badly both times? i feel George and Disney probably spent more effort, time and money making terrible movies than they would have making simple, well written and coherent trilogies. Prequels are fine as-is, they have a ton of huge issues but are interesting and expand the story well. And resulted in an actual good Expanded Universe that expands it more and addresses many issues people had with the prequels themselves.
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Oct 6, 2020 15:59
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