|
The Prequels included a lot of the stuff that fell to the cutting room floor in the original, like the idea of microscopic lifeforms as the universal Chi force. Lucas put that all back in. It makes them a little clunky, especially phantom menace which had to work in a lot of worldbuilding exposition. The sequels tried to manufacture nostalgia, and were designed to capture the feeling of the original, while creating a new escapist fantasy you could build a themepark around. I think at it's core it comes from trying to make "a Star Wars Movie" instead of a movie set in the Star Wars setting. All the new elements they introduce are rehashes of previous things, for the sake of keeping the feel the same. I think the most notable thing to me is that they follow the recent Disney formula of giving a protagonist extreme power and having overcoming the haters and doubters be the character arc. Rey was the first, but they did it with Captain Marvel and Mulan too.
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 16:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 23, 2024 08:57 |
|
|
It's interesting how the Prequels are nostalgic but also anti-nostalgia at the same time. They have a reverence to the past but also demonstrate how a rigid devotion to it leads to fascism.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 16:15
|
|
|
The Little Death posted:I think the most notable thing to me is that they follow the recent Disney formula of giving a protagonist extreme power and having overcoming the haters and doubters be the character arc. Rey was the first, but they did it with Captain Marvel and Mulan too. Doesn't seem like a coincidence this is also the formula of Mary Sue fanfiction.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 16:57
|
|
|
Detective No. 27 posted:It's interesting how the Prequels are nostalgic but also anti-nostalgia at the same time. They have a reverence to the past but also demonstrate how a rigid devotion to it leads to fascism. I’m curious where you see reverence, can you explain more? If anything the prequels seem like a giant riposte to Obi-Wan’s comment in ANH about how good things were “before the dark times, before the Empire”. The prequels demonstrate that things were poo poo back then too, the only difference was the Jedi hadn’t been ousted from a position of privilege.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 17:41
|
|
|
Jewmanji posted:I’m curious where you see reverence, can you explain more? If anything the prequels seem like a giant riposte to Obi-Wan’s comment in ANH about how good things were “before the dark times, before the Empire”. The prequels demonstrate that things were poo poo back then too, the only difference was the Jedi hadn’t been ousted from a position of privilege. I see the reverence in the superficial, mainly Lucas's nostalgia. Dexter's 50's diner, Bail's hot rod. You bring up a point about how things were poo poo even in the nostalgic times. People are generally going to be nostalgic for the days when they were young and weren't quite as aware of the things that didn't affect them. 80s nostalgia conveniently glosses over nuclear panic, 90s nostalgia skips over the AIDS crisis. The vague nonspecific time alluded to in MAGA never existed, but it's used as a fascist mantra.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 18:13
|
|
|
Ah ok sure, yeah. If you’re talking about how Lucas uses visual design, architecture etc to evoke this you can’t omit reference to all of the Art Deco stuff in Coruscant, the classical architecture of Naboo and the art nouveau of the Gungan City. The Phantom Menace is so good.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 18:20
|
|
|
The Little Death posted:The Prequels included a lot of the stuff that fell to the cutting room floor in the original, like the idea of microscopic lifeforms as the universal Chi force. Lucas put that all back in. It makes them a little clunky, especially phantom menace which had to work in a lot of worldbuilding exposition.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 19:49
|
|
|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:This has got to be the biggest divide in sci/fantasy books; there are so many where the main character never faces an obstacle they can't overcome easily. It's really common in the sort of trash I read way too much of these days. It strikes me as lazy world-building and an inability to build a compelling plot, but there's definitely an audience out there for straight up power fantasy to various degrees. OTOH, there are some genuinely good books you can level that accusation at, so....eh. I don't think it's impossible to do a good story with a character with a lot of power. It's just the repition really struck me when I watched the new Mulan. I mean, every Disney character in the renaissance period was looking for their identity and where they belonged, they were all gangly awkward teenagers growing into themselves. Now, Disney seems to be capitalizing on the culture war, where they are presenting the very act of having non-white male protagonists as radical, and therefore making consuming Disney products a radical act. See John Boyega's recent output for how I feel about that. I do think that Rey's story arc in particular does not work for star wars though. Like with most stories, retroactively the endign makes the first 2 movies worse, so if they had landed it better maybe it wouldn't have sucked as much overall? But as it stands, Rey is very much the opposite of where you would think a star wars protagonist would come from. The fact that she never really wrestles with the dark side, at best brushing it a bit in TLJ, and alluding to it without substance in RoS, makes her story pointless. I thought the point of Rey was going to be the temptation that Kylo presented her, to use the power that she had to reshape the galaxy the way she wanted to. But it wasn't even that. Without that temptation, and with inhereting the power without any sort of implied training or wisdom-seeking, the force is reduced to a mutant superpower, which despite all the things Lucas wrote, I don't think was ever the way it was conceived of. \
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 20:18
|
|
|
Another weird thing about Rey's arc is that the trilogy seems to be angling for a "blood isn't as important as the family you assemble along the way," but for all that, she seems terribly alone by the end. Who are her close friends? Is there any reason to think she's going to keep in touch regularly with Finn or Poe, or with anyone else who's not a ghost? Kylo was really her only meaningful relationship for the back 2/3rds of the trilogy, romantic or otherwise. At the end, she's alone in the desert at the childhood home of a man she barely knew, with a laser sword and a borrowed robot that she hasn't gotten around to giving back. General Dog fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Oct 6, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 20:31
|
|
|
General Dog posted:Who are her close friends? [dryly] You answered your own question
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 20:41
|
|
|
Without Finn around Rey forgets her own name, borrowing her mentors' instead.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 20:50
|
|
|
Episode 9 closes the loop on the story but plugs it back in to 7. The only thing that can happen after that are the events of TFA again with Rey as Luke, Finn as Han, and Poe as Leia
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 21:06
|
|
|
Hefty Leftist posted:rewatching the original trilogy has made me realise how easy making the prequels and sequels should have been. these movies aren't complex at all, how the gently caress did they mess it up so badly both times? i feel George and Disney probably spent more effort, time and money making terrible movies than they would have making simple, well written and coherent trilogies. Valerian kinda bombed though
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 21:14
|
|
|
Well the new Star Wars:Squadrons game had it's story cutscenes put up on Youtube and it's about what I expected from the Disney Era. The Imperials are portrayed as a racially diverse group of tragic heroes who believe in Peace and loyalty and it's only a few bad apples like Vader and the Emperor who need to be gotten rid of by the good, moral Imperials. And the Rebels can be just as bad don't you think?
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 07:12
|
|
|
loving lol that Disney's given Star Wars the Clean Wehrmacht treatment
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 09:17
|
|
|
God drat, that sucks.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 09:34
|
|
|
I’m not usually prone to nerd rage but that genuinely makes me angry. I was excited to try the game but not sure if I want to now tbh.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 09:39
|
|
|
Eh, I think the cast of Titan Squad is a bit more diverse than that. You’re definitely told to fire on civilian ships more than once during the campaign and you definitely have wingmen that are OK with doing so.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 09:48
|
|
|
nemesis_hub posted:I’m not usually prone to nerd rage but that genuinely makes me angry. I was excited to try the game but not sure if I want to now tbh. I wouldn’t get the game for single player only unless it drops below $20. The space combat is amazing and you will feel awesome piloting an Xwing. But yes the story is rear end and can be safely ignored. Multiplayer is fantastic but pub matches often get lopsided.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 12:47
|
|
|
galagazombie posted:Well the new Star Wars:Squadrons game had it's story cutscenes put up on Youtube and it's about what I expected from the Disney Era. The Imperials are portrayed as a racially diverse group of tragic heroes who believe in Peace and loyalty and it's only a few bad apples like Vader and the Emperor who need to be gotten rid of by the good, moral Imperials. And the Rebels can be just as bad don't you think? You can't sell Imperial stormtrooper toys if they're actual fascists. Lindsay Ellis on youtube had a good video on how the new Star Wars are pretty devoid of any actual internal motivation for the First Order, and how the old Star Wars managed to do the fascist aesthetics while also pointing out the Empire was actually bad, not misunderstood. Let me correct myself, you can't sell Imperial Stormtroopers if they're actual fascists and you're worried that will give you a bad image. Tons of toy companies make bad guy toys all the time, Disney has just been relentlessly obvious about trying to present the right social image* in the U.S. Market. (*Except when comes to working in China near literal concentration camps)
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 13:35
|
|
|
Though the actual stormtroopers at Disneyland might be pushing it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 13:50
|
|
|
Where's the fun in playing the villain if they're not villainous?
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 16:59
|
|
|
Bongo Bill posted:Where's the fun in playing the villain if they're not villainous? seriously even beyond the poo poo that makes me genuinely very uncomfortable as a jew to hear about how the space nazis actually were a diverse and noble-hearted people manipulated by a few bad leaders it's just so loving boring to basically make two sides of an opposing story the same 'roguish but mostly good-intentioned' vibes. The rebels are right there for just fun 'we may sometimes do some kinda rough stuff but we're a bunch of chaotic good guys trying to make the galaxy better', you can make the baddies the guys going 'carpet bomb the city until the rebels are smoked out'.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 21:25
|
|
|
If it makes you feel any better, the Empire has always been coded much closer to America than Nazi Germany. Which sort of explains this- people at least subconsciously pick up on that. The OT-era Empire is America, and we know that America can't be all bad, therefore the Empire must not be all bad!
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 21:40
|
|
|
Yeah reminder that according to George Lucas the Empire = America. So them being a racially and sexually diverse group who think they are doing the right thing is pretty true to Star Wars. Looking at info about the Star Wars: Starfighter 4: X-Wing 7: Squadrons game it sounds like they are bringing back the idea about the Rebellion/Resistance building anti-Empire superweapons of their own that was left on the cutting room floor from The Force Awakens
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 21:45
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:seriously even beyond the poo poo that makes me genuinely very uncomfortable as a jew to hear about how the space nazis actually were a diverse and noble-hearted people manipulated by a few bad leaders it's just so loving boring to basically make two sides of an opposing story the same 'roguish but mostly good-intentioned' vibes. The rebels are right there for just fun 'we may sometimes do some kinda rough stuff but we're a bunch of chaotic good guys trying to make the galaxy better', you can make the baddies the guys going 'carpet bomb the city until the rebels are smoked out'.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 21:45
|
|
|
I mean, this was also where the sequel trilogy failed to connect with audiences. The OT obviously had clear politics, even if they were space politics and the Nazis weren't explicitly coded as white supremacists. The prequels had a political idea too, and the line about democracy dying with applause is still good. What's Snoke's ideology? "Killing Hope"? He's not the leader of any coherent ideology or political faction, he's a psychic space grinch.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 22:05
|
|
|
Who were the non white or woman or alien imperials in the OT? It’s no accident that there were none. The empire as America isn’t a melting pot, it’s the people running the show in America. White men.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 22:14
|
|
|
AdmiralViscen posted:Who were the non white or woman or alien imperials in the OT? It’s no accident that there were none. The empire as America isn’t a melting pot, it’s the people running the show in America. White men. At best they were hidden behind masks, forced to conform to a standard that effectively erased their identity and will. Despite the ST literally being about a black storm trooper who breaks out of this cycle, they don't really explore this aspect very well.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 22:25
|
|
|
In the OT, the aliens are a metaphor for racist and colonial oppression, and droids are slaves. In the ST, droids are fun companions and the aliens are too bland to care about at all. I recently listened to an interview with Rick Perlstein, wherein he pointed out that Reagan loved Star Wars and that part of the appeal of Star Wars was casting white Americans as the oppressed underdog--he recognized that there's a Vietnam allegory, but thinks that the point was to turn the tables. I think that's simplistic, and Reagan was a soulless psycho so it doesn't really inform my analysis if he enjoyed the laser noises.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 22:33
|
|
|
AdmiralViscen posted:Who were the non white or woman or alien imperials in the OT? It’s no accident that there were none. The empire as America isn’t a melting pot, it’s the people running the show in America. White men.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 23:41
|
|
|
The United States posted:As America becomes less homogenously white and male then so does the Empire. But it remains the Empire. I would argue that Disney’s interpretation of the Empire/FO is meaningfully and obviously distinct from Lucas’ vision. They are intentionally about as far from biting social critique as they can get. They just want to use the iconography to sell Brand
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2020 23:57
|
|
|
galagazombie posted:Well the new Star Wars:Squadrons game had it's story cutscenes put up on Youtube and it's about what I expected from the Disney Era. The Imperials are portrayed as a racially diverse group of tragic heroes who believe in Peace and loyalty and it's only a few bad apples like Vader and the Emperor who need to be gotten rid of by the good, moral Imperials. And the Rebels can be just as bad don't you think? This ignores the fact that at least twice in the game itself, as an Imperial you're ordered to destroy transports full of civilians. The third time it's supposedly civilians but why would civilians be at a top-secret facility that's building Republic battleships?
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2020 02:54
|
|
|
I remember the story in the new Battlefront 2 also being very "sure the Empire was super cool, led a much stronger, ordered society that everyone loved and we feel for its loss but uh, what were we saying?" It follows the general liberal dead end perspective. of the sequels. Everyone prefers the fascists so the heroes fight for the moral high ground of being nicer about it. Shiroc fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Oct 9, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2020 05:23
|
|
|
AdmiralViscen posted:I would argue that Disney’s interpretation of the Empire/FO is meaningfully and obviously distinct from Lucas’ vision. They are intentionally about as far from biting social critique as they can get. They just want to use the iconography to sell Brand Rogue One also goes even further by making the Death Star = Nukes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2020 05:35
|
|
|
I think the Death Star was always analogous to nukes
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2020 05:37
|
|
|
Crazy Joe Wilson posted:You can't sell Imperial stormtrooper toys if they're actual fascists. Lindsay Ellis on youtube had a good video on how the new Star Wars are pretty devoid of any actual internal motivation for the First Order, and how the old Star Wars managed to do the fascist aesthetics while also pointing out the Empire was actually bad, not misunderstood. I'm kind of curious if that's explicit, because now that I think about it I don't have any concept in my head of what the actual people in the stormtrooper suits actually felt like. All they say is poo poo like "Hey!" and "Rebel scum!" or whatever, nothing really indicating they are mindless or frothing or reluctant. Obviously it can't be as full with conflicted soldiers as Disney thinks, but whatever.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2020 05:40
|
|
|
galagazombie posted:Well the new Star Wars:Squadrons game had it's story cutscenes put up on Youtube and it's about what I expected from the Disney Era. The Imperials are portrayed as a racially diverse group of tragic heroes who believe in Peace and loyalty and it's only a few bad apples like Vader and the Emperor who need to be gotten rid of by the good, moral Imperials. And the Rebels can be just as bad don't you think? What game were you watching footage of? It sure as hell wasn’t Squadrons. Your squadmates are: — a perfectly polite gay cop who is the model Imperial soldier in that he literally handwaves away all the atrocities the Imperials commit by declaring that “the only thing that matters is who has the power, and we have all the power.” He’s the perfectly loathsome banality of evil compared to the rest of the squad. — a completely broken wreck of a man who has been shot down so many times that the Empire has rebuilt him into a cybernetic monstrosity to fight the war forever. He has no goals or aspirations beyond eternal service as meat for the grinder and cannot even take his helmet off. — a fully delusional careerist who talks endlessly about her pipe dream of restoring the Imperial Senate, her family’s prior claim to relevance, as if she’s not fighting on behalf of the power that dismantled it in the first place. — a murderous psychopath who, honestly, never talks about anything except how much she wants to kill people. Beyond the squadmates themselves, all of the Imperial commanders are in a constant state of infighting and betrayal due to their personal quests for glory, resources, or vengeance, and in the end the Imperials achieve absolutely nothing in the campaign except murdering a ton of people (including innocent civilians, repeatedly) and fail to achieve any of their tactical or strategic goals. Nothing about this game paints the Imperials or the Empire in a positive light: all they do is lose. The United States posted:Looking at info about the Star Wars: Starfighter 4: X-Wing 7: Squadrons game it sounds like they are bringing back the idea about the Rebellion/Resistance building anti-Empire superweapons of their own that was left on the cutting room floor from The Force Awakens There isn’t really a New Republic superweapon. There’s just a new class of capital ship with an extra-powerful tractor beam that they use to try to take Imperials captive. Sio fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Oct 9, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2020 10:03
|
|
|
The United States posted:Whether it's intentional or not, it does support and enhance the original thesis that America = Empire. The metaphor doesn't really work because the necessary context to make it work has been expunged. The new racially and gender inclusive Empire/FO isn't letting those groups into the fold in order to perpetuate the oppression of another outgroup. When groups like the Irish and Italians became equal to WASP's it was so the oppression of groups like African Americans could be sustained and preserve the Capitalist social hierarchy. But with the new Empire/FO theres no entity to fit the Fascist idea of the other. The new Empire/FO doesn't have religious grudges with anyone, It doesn't have racial ones, It doesn't have nationalistic ones, it doesn't have gender ones, Disney in fact has put a lot of effort into making being a LGBTQ Imperial an acceptable thing so LGBTQ people will feel fine buying mercy of them. Sio posted:There isn’t really a New Republic superweapon. There’s just a new class of capital ship with an extra-powerful tractor beam that they use to try to take Imperials captive. The characters outright compare it to the Death Star in dialogue and have a whole "I guess we Rebels are just like the Empire." moment about it. galagazombie fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Oct 9, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2020 10:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 23, 2024 08:57 |
|
|
galagazombie posted:The characters outright compare it to the Death Star in dialogue and have a whole "I guess we Rebels are just like the Empire." moment about it. Yes. And then it turns out they’re wrong, and it’s just a big ship with a big tractor beam. New Republic Pilots having moral reservations about the arms race does not make them equivalent to the Empire, where the pilots are instead wrestling with how many civilian transports and medical frigates to shoot down (it’s all of them, if you want your commander to be happy!) Sio fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Oct 9, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2020 10:26
|
|