Oldie Programming: Career Advice, Questions, Change of Directions

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ultrafilter: Aug 23, 2007; It's okay if you have any questions.

I'd write that slightly differently:

code:

SELECT o.id, ss.statename, os.timestamp
FROM orders AS o, orderstatus AS os, orderstates AS ss
WHERE os.orderid = o.id AND
      os.statusid = ss.id AND
      os.timestamp = 
(
  SELECT max(timestamp)
  FROM orderstatus AS iss
  WHERE iss.orderid = o.id
);

I don't think there's a huge difference in readability between the two, but this is more in line with what I've seen other people do.

The key is to have some human readable format. What you don't want is this:

code:

SELECT o.id, ss.statename, os.timestamp FROM orders o, orderstatus os, orderstates ss WHERE os.orderid = o.id AND os.statusid = ss.id AND os.timestamp = (SELECT max(timestamp) FROM orderstatus iss WHERE iss.orderid = o.id);

The computer can read that just fine but other developers can't and will curse you.

# ? Oct 3, 2020 15:03

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 19:47

Paolomania: Apr 26, 2006

pokeyman posted:

~~gentlemen~~ gentleolds

# ? Oct 3, 2020 17:13

redleader: Aug 18, 2005; Engage according to operational parameters

vileness fats posted:

Gentlemen, a style question.

I literally haven't written SQL for 20+ years, and my solution from the days of yore would be:
code:
SELECT o.id, ss.statename, os.timestamp
FROM orders o, orderstatus os, orderstates ss
WHERE os.orderid = o.id 
AND os.statusid = ss.id
AND os.timestamp = 
	(SELECT max(timestamp)
	 FROM orderstatus iss
	 WHERE iss.orderid = o.id);
Which does have the advantage that it would run on anything that supports subqueries (e.g. any major RDBMS from the mid-90s on).

Is that style of SQL considered unfashionable these days?

it's generally considered good practice to explicitly use INNER JOIN rather than the implicit join with a comma - primarily for readability

# ? Oct 3, 2020 23:59

ninepints: Sep 7, 2017; four and a half quarts

To echo redleader, I like to use join predicates to filter as I go, vs. slamming a bunch of tables together with a cartesian product and then picking through the results. Especially for more complicated queries, it's easier for me to reason about the overall result set when I can think through successive joins one at a time. Also, from a organization/readability standpoint, it seems good to keep the predicates that describe the desired relationship between tables at the point where those tables are joined together. Some of it probably comes down to personal preference, though.

# ? Oct 5, 2020 07:14

No Pants: Dec 10, 2000

vileness fats posted:

code:

SELECT o.id, ss.statename, os.timestamp
FROM orders o, orderstatus os, orderstates ss
WHERE os.orderid = o.id 
AND os.statusid = ss.id
AND os.timestamp = 
	(SELECT max(timestamp)
	 FROM orderstatus iss
	 WHERE iss.orderid = o.id);

Knowing nothing else, I'd say you're kind of relying on your RDBMS to transform your correlated subquery into something more efficient.

# ? Oct 6, 2020 12:25

Iverron: May 13, 2012

Anyone have any recent experience moving from C# / .NET to another language? I�ve been in C# for a decade now and I�m looking to move on for a number of reasons but mostly that I�m tired of .NET developers and the prevalence of legacy .NET work.

The good thing is my current position leverages k8s, non sql server, some python integration so it�s a solid few years of what I would consider non-traditional .NET work, but the people and the politics have worn me out and finding another non-traditional .NET job seems counterproductive at this point.

I�m looking at golang, but I�m not set on it. I�ve also never applied for work in a language I�m not currently working in so that�s new. Any advice beyond the usual OSS contributions, etc.?

# ? Oct 7, 2020 20:49

Achmed Jones: Oct 16, 2004

I used to work at a ruby shop. I write golang these days. I did my interview stuff in ruby and they just expected me to pick up golang, which I did and it was fine

My job title has everything from people who code all the time to people who never do, though. But IMO once you're past junior and maybe mid levels, any company that cares about languages too much is being goofy and sending red flags that they suck at onboarding. Of course that assumes hiring practices limited by pipeline size - if open positions are limited, then the person with directly relevant experience will and should get the offer ceteris paribus.

One trick is to focus your resume on technologies and stacks rather than languages. For example, jump up and down about kubernetes and leave the only mention of languages in your "proficiency" and "familiarity" sections. Of course you'll ideally want to have golang at least at the familiar level, but it won't take you long to get there (if you aren't already). You'll be worried more about getting the on-site interview than the actual on-site interview itself - at the interview you can usually just bang out whatever language because it's not like you'll be going into esoteric language facts in 45 minutes of graph traversal or whatever.

One time I had to do a timed hackerrank type thing as a pre-screen in Python, which I don't know. I got good answers for the first questions (two python coding, one SQL) and then there was a python algo question that I literally wrote a comment to the effect of "look I don't know python and have 10 minutes left, here's the algorithm in English" and it was fine.

# ? Oct 8, 2020 03:26

Guinness: Sep 15, 2004

I wouldn't worry about language too much, either. Most good companies don't particularly which language you're proficient in, just that you're able and willing to become proficient in their most-used language(s) and tools.

I work primarily in Java these days, but when I interviewed they said I could do it in any "well known" language. I did most of it in javascript since that's what I was working in most regularly at the time.

If it helps you feel more comfortable do some casual side exploration to figure out what you're interested in (or at least can put up with), but if you're proficient in C# and up on modern dev tooling you I don't feel like you should have any serious difficulty finding somewhere else using different tools and just picking it up as you go. It's all about a solid foundation of experience, specific tools and languages don't matter so much.

# ? Oct 8, 2020 04:07

Ensign Expendable: Nov 11, 2008; Lager beer is proof that god loves us; Pillbug

Iverron posted:

Anyone have any recent experience moving from C# / .NET to another language? I�ve been in C# for a decade now and I�m looking to move on for a number of reasons but mostly that I�m tired of .NET developers and the prevalence of legacy .NET work.

The good thing is my current position leverages k8s, non sql server, some python integration so it�s a solid few years of what I would consider non-traditional .NET work, but the people and the politics have worn me out and finding another non-traditional .NET job seems counterproductive at this point.

I�m looking at golang, but I�m not set on it. I�ve also never applied for work in a language I�m not currently working in so that�s new. Any advice beyond the usual OSS contributions, etc.?

I just moved from C# to Python then Java. I was up front with the Python shop about not knowing any Python, they didn't much care. To be honest, I spent most of my time there writing Terraform that I also didn't know anything about beforehand.

Java was fine since I had prior Java experience and honestly, it's not that different from C#. You'll make the jump with no issues.

# ? Oct 8, 2020 04:13

Iverron: May 13, 2012

thanks all, looks like I�m overthinking it and yeah definitely a red flag anyway

I need better red flag detection in general but it is (was?) hard to be too picky with remote C#

# ? Oct 8, 2020 06:15

Ghost of Reagan Past: Oct 7, 2003; rock and roll fun

Guinness posted:

I wouldn't worry about language too much, either. Most good companies don't particularly which language you're proficient in, just that you're able and willing to become proficient in their most-used language(s) and tools.

I work primarily in Java these days, but when I interviewed they said I could do it in any "well known" language. I did most of it in javascript since that's what I was working in most regularly at the time.

If it helps you feel more comfortable do some casual side exploration to figure out what you're interested in (or at least can put up with), but if you're proficient in C# and up on modern dev tooling you I don't feel like you should have any serious difficulty finding somewhere else using different tools and just picking it up as you go. It's all about a solid foundation of experience, specific tools and languages don't matter so much.

At my last job the head of engineering was working to "revamp" interviewing (read: micromanage how developers interview) and everyone got in a big fight with him about time (he didn't think candidates should have an opportunity to ask us questions and it wasn't our job to determine culture fit...) and how much Python and Django knowledge were needed. He said he only wanted people who were experts in Python and Django, and that nobody else would be able to get up to speed quickly enough.

Place was basically a sweatshop, and is a huge red flag. Once candidates started having time to ask questions the number of candidates that accepted offers plummeted, and we interviewed a lot of people.

# ? Oct 8, 2020 12:37

gbut: Mar 28, 2008; 😤I put the UN🇺🇳 in 🎊FUN🎉

Today, while reading the orange website, I learned that the only two sorta well known tech companies in the US that have a unionized tech workforce are Kickstarter and Glitch.

drat, that's depressing.

e: somebody tell me I'm wrong, please

# ? Oct 8, 2020 13:25

TooMuchAbstraction: Oct 14, 2012; I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.; Fun Shoe

The USA has a huge culture bias against unions, especially among white-collar workforces for some reason. Apparently people are happy to accept a massive power imbalance between them and their employers.

# ? Oct 8, 2020 14:51

CompeAnansi: Feb 1, 2011; I respectfully decline
the invitation to join
your hallucination

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

The USA has a huge culture bias against unions, especially among white-collar workforces for some reason. Apparently people are happy to accept a massive power imbalance between them and their employers.

The USA has poo poo protections against union-bashing and retaliation. So, even among those who support unions, most are too scared to try.

# ? Oct 8, 2020 14:54

ultrafilter: Aug 23, 2007; It's okay if you have any questions.

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

The USA has a huge culture bias against unions, especially among white-collar workforces for some reason. Apparently people are happy to accept a massive power imbalance between them and their employers.

IIRC there's a big division by age group on that, so unions will probably make a comeback in the next 10-20 years.

# ? Oct 8, 2020 15:34

Ghost of Reagan Past: Oct 7, 2003; rock and roll fun

ultrafilter posted:

IIRC there's a big division by age group on that, so unions will probably make a comeback in the next 10-20 years.

Especially among white collar professionals, too, the idea of a union is broadly popular with millennials and I presume zoomers, though most of them are barely old enough to hold their first post-college job yet.

Jesus I'm getting old.

# ? Oct 8, 2020 15:38

Iverron: May 13, 2012

ultrafilter posted:

IIRC there's a big division by age group on that, so unions will probably make a comeback in the next 10-20 years.

requires Millennials and Gen Z not going the way of the Boomers with the �got mine� poo poo but yeah there�s hope

# ? Oct 8, 2020 17:25

gbut: Mar 28, 2008; 😤I put the UN🇺🇳 in 🎊FUN🎉

So, YOLO, but to establish full blown communism. I can get aboard with that.

# ? Oct 8, 2020 17:40

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Iverron posted:

requires Millennials and Gen Z not going the way of the Boomers with the �got mine� poo poo but yeah there�s hope

at the idea that millennials and Z-ers have �got� anything at this point

# ? Oct 8, 2020 19:02

Iverron: May 13, 2012

fourwood posted:

at the idea that millennials and Z-ers have �got� anything at this point

100% but the hedonic treadmill is a hell of a drug

# ? Oct 8, 2020 19:21

Rocko Bonaparte: Mar 12, 2002; Every day is Friday!

I must rant.

An old colleague reached out to me from Amazon to see if I wanted to do the kind of work I'm pretty much doing now but have it actually get used, be involved in some technology that would help me stay relevant, get paid more, and actually be part of a team instead of being "that software guy." So of course I applied. Then there was a problem.

I had interviewed there back in July 2019 and was rejected. It was not from the behavioral interview, nor from the technical interviews. Heck, not even the system design interview was the problem. Crotchety Rocko also apparently wasn't the issue. They were just worried about my skills with enterprise distributed systems. You know, the one thing I didn't have on my resume that I'm trying to get into. You know, the thing they would have seen before even reaching out to me. Because of that rejection, I still cannot apply for any new jobs there now. There's some cool off period, and my colleague can't even find out what it is. So I can't even be considered.

So the moral of the story now is apparently you don't want to apply to Amazon unless you think it'll be a complete, 100% slam dunk where you current skills laterally transfer 100%. If it's not, then you'll miss the chance to apply when it is.

# ? Oct 15, 2020 02:49

Hughlander: May 11, 2005

Rocko Bonaparte posted:

I must rant.

An old colleague reached out to me from Amazon to see if I wanted to do the kind of work I'm pretty much doing now but have it actually get used, be involved in some technology that would help me stay relevant, get paid more, and actually be part of a team instead of being "that software guy." So of course I applied. Then there was a problem.

I had interviewed there back in July 2019 and was rejected. It was not from the behavioral interview, nor from the technical interviews. Heck, not even the system design interview was the problem. Crotchety Rocko also apparently wasn't the issue. They were just worried about my skills with enterprise distributed systems. You know, the one thing I didn't have on my resume that I'm trying to get into. You know, the thing they would have seen before even reaching out to me. Because of that rejection, I still cannot apply for any new jobs there now. There's some cool off period, and my colleague can't even find out what it is. So I can't even be considered.

So the moral of the story now is apparently you don't want to apply to Amazon unless you think it'll be a complete, 100% slam dunk where you current skills laterally transfer 100%. If it's not, then you'll miss the chance to apply when it is.

Recruiter could have told you. Or you can just reapply. I always heard 6 months.

# ? Oct 15, 2020 02:52

TooMuchAbstraction: Oct 14, 2012; I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.; Fun Shoe

Has Amazon fixed their issues of massive burnout and being miserly in stupid ways with their budget? Those were definitely problems back in the mid-2000's, and I'm curious how much of that was culture vs. some kind of growing pains or something.

# ? Oct 15, 2020 03:17

Star War Sex Parrot: Oct 2, 2003

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

Has Amazon fixed their issues of massive burnout and being miserly in stupid ways with their budget? Those were definitely problems back in the mid-2000's, and I'm curious how much of that was culture vs. some kind of growing pains or something.

Like a lot of large companies with diverse products, I think it depends on the team that you're on. The folks I know on the Redshift and Aurora teams are having a great time.

Amazon also has a shitload more money than they had 15 years ago.

# ? Oct 15, 2020 18:44

ultrafilter: Aug 23, 2007; It's okay if you have any questions.

The people I know working for Amazon love it, but they're all very senior and specialized in things that the company really cares about. The impression I get is that Amazon will make it very clear how difficult you are to replace, and that's a much better situation for some people than others.

# ? Oct 15, 2020 18:49

Guinness: Sep 15, 2004

I know a bunch of folks at Amazon (being in Seattle), and it's a very mixed bag as you might expect at a huge company. To paint in broad strokes, though, the company is notoriously cheap on perks and amenities, and the expectations of employees are quite high and on some teams unrealistic due to the chaos. There are undoubtedly pockets of sanity and balance, but there's a lot of good reasons why the burnout rate at large is so high.

Almost everyone I know at Amazon that isn't some super high up specialized position will openly admit they have an exit timeline. Or they are the very "company man" type personality and binge drink the koolaid.

If you find a good team and can work within the culture it does offer a unique experience in terms of scale and technology, though. And the upside for stock comp is still enormous if you can stick out their harsh vesting schedule.

Guinness fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Oct 15, 2020

# ? Oct 15, 2020 19:24

minato: Jun 7, 2004; cutty cain't hang, say 7-up.; Taco Defender

Apparently the only Amazon employee perk is free bananas. c.f the other FAANGs where you get your laundry done, 3 square meals, etc. I was told that this is because Amazon came from a retail background rather than a tech one.

# ? Oct 15, 2020 19:45

Love Stole the Day: Nov 4, 2012; Please give me free quality professional advice so I can be a baby about it and insult you

Guinness posted:

Or they are the very "company man" type personality and binge drink the koolaid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDDukLyXY-M

# ? Oct 16, 2020 01:40

Achmed Jones: Oct 16, 2004

And much worse, amazon has IIRC 4, maybe 5 company holidays. For the rest, you're taking your vacation days. Also, you don't have very many of those - certainly not enough to compensate.

Not sure if using retail holidays instead of normal ones was the whole company or just the org I interviewed with, though

# ? Oct 16, 2020 06:13

Cancelbot: Nov 22, 2006; Canceling spam since 1928

I work in AWS and the culture is very different to retail, Amazon is huge so there will be areas where it's sunshine and rainbows vs. other areas which feel like hell. Being in the EU also helps with the perks.

And yes if you fail at the loop stage but not catastrophically the recycle is around 6 months.

# ? Oct 16, 2020 16:38

Rocko Bonaparte: Mar 12, 2002; Every day is Friday!

Cancelbot posted:

And yes if you fail at the loop stage but not catastrophically the recycle is around 6 months.

So I gotta ask: what if I failed so catastrophically that neither the original interview team nor my colleague buddy are even willing to say so then what am I looking at?

# ? Oct 20, 2020 01:30

ultrafilter: Aug 23, 2007; It's okay if you have any questions.

Are we talking you didn't know anything catastrophically or you did a racism catastrophically?

# ? Oct 20, 2020 02:19

Adhemar: Jan 21, 2004; Kellner, da ist ein scheussliches Biest in meiner Suppe.

You can get a no recycle or a recycle for a period other than 6 months. It all just depends.

Also, I had zero cloud experience and still got a job at AWS, so that also just depends on the hiring manager.

Adhemar fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Oct 20, 2020

# ? Oct 20, 2020 02:55

Rocko Bonaparte: Mar 12, 2002; Every day is Friday!

ultrafilter posted:

Are we talking you didn't know anything catastrophically or you did a racism catastrophically?

Who knows? Would they have told me afterwards I was getting turned down for doing a catastrophic racism or would they have made something up?

My feedback is that they wanted somebody with more experience working with distributed systems. I apparently did well on the system design question. I also apparently did well on the behavioral part. The other interviews were some basic coding and algorithm questions. I apparently also did well on them too. It looked like they just looked at my resume afterwards, saw I wasn't already working on the kind of stuff they were doing, and rejected me. My only theory is the manager didn't want to see me for awhile--so I could possibly theoretically get all that distributed software experience somewhere else--and instead blocked me from all consideration from Amazon anywhere.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 05:46

Ruggan: Feb 20, 2007; WHAT THAT SMELL LIKE?!

Just accepted a job at Google a few weeks ago. Senior SWE. Start in a month. Very excited and kinda proud but don�t want to be that guy. Trying to refrain from telling everyone I know, so this thread is my outlet instead!

# ? Oct 20, 2020 08:29

Acer Pilot: Feb 17, 2007; put the 'the' in therapist

Ruggan posted:

Just accepted a job at Google a few weeks ago. Senior SWE. Start in a month. Very excited and kinda proud but don�t want to be that guy. Trying to refrain from telling everyone I know, so this thread is my outlet instead!

congrats!

# ? Oct 20, 2020 10:00

Harriet Carker: Jun 2, 2009

Ruggan posted:

Just accepted a job at Google a few weeks ago. Senior SWE. Start in a month. Very excited and kinda proud but don�t want to be that guy. Trying to refrain from telling everyone I know, so this thread is my outlet instead!

Congrats! My wife has been there for a half year now. Compared to other companies we�ve been at, the onboarding is long and painful. Not sure how it might be different remotely but there was a lot of rubbish to get through before really getting settled. Good luck and have fun!

# ? Oct 20, 2020 15:41

Paolomania: Apr 26, 2006

Ruggan posted:

Just accepted a job at Google a few weeks ago. Senior SWE. Start in a month. Very excited and kinda proud but don�t want to be that guy. Trying to refrain from telling everyone I know, so this thread is my outlet instead!

Welcome to the club! Company culture is definitely corporatizing compared to what it was, but there is still some luxury gay space communism left.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 17:41

lifg: Dec 4, 2000; <this tag left blank>; Muldoon

Paolomania posted:

Welcome to the club! Company culture is definitely corporatizing compared to what it was, but there is still some luxury gay space communism left.

Whats changing?

# ? Oct 20, 2020 18:40

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 19:47

TooMuchAbstraction: Oct 14, 2012; I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.; Fun Shoe

lifg posted:

Whats changing?

The pattern I saw when I was there was a frequent repetition of

:v:

We should do [mildly to moderately unethical thing]
:cool:

Our users will hate it
:v:

But think of the money we could make!
:cool:

I gathered input from 30000 internal employees who all say this is a dumb idea, and half our team has transferred or quit
:v:

We're doing it
:cool:

Oh look, everyone hates it
:v:

Cool, I got my promotion so I'm out, have fun dealing with the fallout

Plus things like reprisals against employees that speak up about issues, protection of sexual harassers, cancelling popular products on a whim, having their PAC give huge amounts of money to authoritarians...

I don't want to discourage Ruggan; it's still a legit accomplishment and a good job. But it's also very clear that the leadership considers money to be more important than morals, and they're getting increasingly dissatisfied with their uppity employee base.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 20:39

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cavern of COBOL > Oldie Programming: Career Advice, Questions, Change of Directions

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