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he got the country stuck in endless wars of imperialism and discredited trust in government forever Imagine if the Great Society plans had all succeeded in their aims I remember an essay called “Race and the American Presidency” by Prof. Kenneth O’Reilly that evaluated every single U.S. president’s treatment of African Americans- the only two he concluded who went out of their way to help black people at a personal cost were Lincoln and LBJ What contrast, wow
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Oct 17, 2020 11:17
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he had a massive hog, op
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Oct 17, 2020 12:11
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I blame JFK
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Oct 17, 2020 14:10
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the robert caro books about lbj have what's possibly the closest to the platonic ideal of a new deal liberal perspective it's possible to have but they're still interesting and good
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Oct 17, 2020 17:25
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Declan MacManus posted:he had a massive hog, op too much blood in the brain impairs empathy
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Oct 17, 2020 17:30
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sat on my keys! posted:the robert caro books about lbj have what's possibly the closest to the platonic ideal of a new deal liberal perspective it's possible to have but they're still interesting and good LBJ learned from FDR that to pass social democracy in America you need three names and a lot of hatred for Asian people
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Oct 17, 2020 18:04
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Maximo Roboto posted:LBJ learned from FDR that to pass social democracy in America you need three names and a lot of hatred for Asian people lol he literally goes off how he needs a three initial name like FDR to achieve the great ambition of his life: becoming president
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Oct 17, 2020 19:06
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sat on my keys! posted:lol he literally goes off how he needs a three initial name like FDR to achieve the great ambition of his life: becoming president Either that or a president’s assassin, I guess
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Oct 17, 2020 19:13
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sat on my keys! posted:the robert caro books about lbj have what's possibly the closest to the platonic ideal of a new deal liberal perspective it's possible to have but they're still interesting and good they are extremely good
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Oct 18, 2020 00:18
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Is there a leftist consensus on LBJ. Obviously imperialist war makes him a great satan. But what do they think of the Great Society and his attitude towards civil rights, do they denounce him as a succ reformist or as a Bismarckian who was just doing it for political machinations. Do they reconcile the two by saying the American reactionary attitude towards socialism forced him to overcompensate for his progressive domestic policy by being a rampaging Cold Warrior abroad
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Oct 18, 2020 00:23
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FDR seems more understandable as a blue blooded NY patrician who was canny enough to see where the winds were blowing and was smart/idealistic enough to ape what other countries were doing at the time wrt building a government that can actually do poo poo to get out of the Depression. He interned Japanese Americans because he was about as racist as any other American at the time and that’s the sort of popular outrage reaction that would happen after Pearl Harbor. LBJ’s decision to get embroiled in Indochina, even going forward with the Gulf of Tonkin flimsy pretext, seems out of right field
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Oct 18, 2020 00:31
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Maximo Roboto posted:Is there a leftist consensus on LBJ. Obviously imperialist war makes him a great satan. But what do they think of the Great Society and his attitude towards civil rights, do they denounce him as a succ reformist or as a Bismarckian who was just doing it for political machinations. Do they reconcile the two by saying the American reactionary attitude towards socialism forced him to overcompensate for his progressive domestic policy by being a rampaging Cold Warrior abroad He's still in the top tier of US presidents but that says more about how truly lovely the majority of them are
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Oct 18, 2020 05:05
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Maximo Roboto posted:FDR seems more understandable as a blue blooded NY patrician who was canny enough to see where the winds were blowing and was smart/idealistic enough to ape what other countries were doing at the time wrt building a government that can actually do poo poo to get out of the Depression. He interned Japanese Americans because he was about as racist as any other American at the time and that’s the sort of popular outrage reaction that would happen after Pearl Harbor. LBJ’s decision to get embroiled in Indochina, even going forward with the Gulf of Tonkin flimsy pretext, seems out of right field LBJ's war on poverty did not seem to be ingeninue, but America was always an empire and it didn't stop with LBJ. To be clear, LBJ wasn't a leftist but he was more of a determined populist that got results. Also, the voting rights act/civil rights act were heavily influenced by the Cold War and the fact that the perception of the US was dismal in much of the developing world.
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Oct 18, 2020 05:35
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Lord of Pie posted:He's still in the top tier of US presidents but that says more about how truly lovely the majority of them are Well yeah, the Civil Rights Act happening under his watch would probably guarantee his top tier placement alone for starters among mainstream historians, but I'm wondering what his legacy with leftists/Marxists is Ardennes posted:LBJ's war on poverty did not seem to be ingeninue, but America was always an empire and it didn't stop with LBJ. To be clear, LBJ wasn't a leftist but he was more of a determined populist that got results. Also, the voting rights act/civil rights act were heavily influenced by the Cold War and the fact that the perception of the US was dismal in much of the developing world. Makes sense. So the Marxist view would be then that he was peddling reformist scraps to bolster America for its true war on communism? I guess to me it's still very paradoxical that his populist measures would've been fairly comprehensive (making him relatively quite left compared to all other American presidents), but his commitment to the Cold War undercut all of it. also, how was JFK's New Frontier compared to the Great Society or the New Deal?
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Oct 18, 2020 05:41
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Maximo Roboto posted:Makes sense. So the Marxist view would be then that he was peddling reformist scraps to bolster America for its true war on communism? I guess to me it's still very paradoxical that his populist measures would've been fairly comprehensive (making him relatively quite left compared to all other American presidents), but his commitment to the Cold War undercut all of it. In the end, he was a liberal and an imperialist (from a "Marxist perspective"), don't get me wrong but within the realm of liberals and imperialists, there are variations. He was more of the populist side of that calculation. Just because he was relatively left-wing for the US doesn't really matter into the broader question of political economy because the US really only works one way and that is the expansion of market space.
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Oct 18, 2020 05:56
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https://twitter.com/triviapotus/status/1317213815751270400?s=19 he might have been a monstorous war criminal but he was definitely the last dem with any balls Sheng-Ji Yang has issued a correction as of 08:02 on Oct 18, 2020 |
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Oct 18, 2020 08:00
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LBJ taught school in Cotulla TX and I think his ranch was around there. Was a genuine tumbleweed town until Obama fracked it up now it's just shaky
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Oct 18, 2020 08:02
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Maximo Roboto posted:Is there a leftist consensus on LBJ. Obviously imperialist war makes him a great satan. But what do they think of the Great Society and his attitude towards civil rights, do they denounce him as a succ reformist or as a Bismarckian who was just doing it for political machinations. Do they reconcile the two by saying the American reactionary attitude towards socialism forced him to overcompensate for his progressive domestic policy by being a rampaging Cold Warrior abroad He's tough to categorize. On the one hand he was the only president since FDR who legitimately wanted to restructure US society to help Americans rather than solely to enrich the wealthy, and he used his immense political skill and connections to bully people into supporting civil rights. On the other hand he was also caught in the same trap all Cold War presidents were caught in, which is that he had to appear tough on communism and was terrified that if he failed with containment anywhere it would mean his domestic agenda would get defeated because it would make him look weak. He didn't just fight the Vietnam War, he also invaded the Dominican Republic and supported fascist dictators across Latin America and Africa because he had to look tough on communism. It's the age-old dilemma of US presidents where even if they were good on domestic policy, and LBJ was probably one of the best on domestic policy, how do you balance that against a foreign policy that harmed far more people than the good domestic policies helped? In conclusion, LBJ was a land of contrasts. If your utilitarian calculation starts and ends at the borders of the United States he might have been one of the best presidents ever, but if your utilitarian calculation includes the sum total of human suffering worldwide he may have been one of the worst.
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Oct 18, 2020 19:02
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Communist Vietnam did more to fight the worst excesses of communism than any Western state lol
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Oct 18, 2020 19:11
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shovelbum posted:Communist Vietnam did more to fight the worst excesses of communism than any Western state lol fun fact, the Khmer Rouge remained the UN-recognized legitimate government of Cambodia until the 1990s because the US and China propped up Pol Pot to spite the Vietnamese
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Oct 18, 2020 19:22
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When the cables and recordings related to the coup in Brazil in 1964 came out, it was very clear that none of the higher ups in the LBJ administration had any idea of what was going on in Brazil, but that they were being hit hard on containing communism by the republicans so they were just going all out in supporting anything that looked like fighting communism. There aren't innocent presidents on the imperialism front, but LBJ manages to be worse than average. Besides Vietnam and Latin America, the Indonesian genocide is probably the most grotesque example of that. CIA straight up just giving lists of names for death squads to kill.
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Oct 18, 2020 19:37
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joepinetree posted:When the cables and recordings related to the coup in Brazil in 1964 came out, it was very clear that none of the higher ups in the LBJ administration had any idea of what was going on in Brazil, but that they were being hit hard on containing communism by the republicans so they were just going all out in supporting anything that looked like fighting communism. Indonesia is a particularly grotesque example, let's also not forget the Congo where Johnson hired a bunch of white South African mercenaries to come rape and murder their way through the country until all the anti-American rebels were dead.
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Oct 18, 2020 19:59
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quote:In April, 1965, the low-key [Prime Minister of Canada] Lester Pearson challenged, albeit mildly, LBJ's brand-new bombing campaign against North Vietnam by proposing a limited "suspension," which, "at the right time might facilitate the development of diplomatic resources which cannot easily be applied to the problem under existing circumstances."
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Oct 18, 2020 20:14
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vyelkin posted:If your utilitarian calculation starts and ends at the borders of the United States he might have been one of the best presidents ever, but if your utilitarian calculation includes the sum total of human suffering worldwide he may have been one of the worst. His foreign policy was so aggro that it counterproductively caused his domestic policy to backfire, failing to fulfill the Great Society and disrupting social cohesion for all time. It's crazy. joepinetree posted:There aren't innocent presidents on the imperialism front, but LBJ manages to be worse than average. JFK being the first American president to gently caress over Iraq, paving the way to Saddam's rise is one helluva trip
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Oct 18, 2020 20:18
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look jfk was the first person to gently caress a lot of things
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Oct 18, 2020 20:27
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There's only one good american president
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Oct 18, 2020 21:51
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LBJ hosed more things on accident than Kennedy hosed on purpose.
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Oct 18, 2020 22:53
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:he might have been a monstorous war criminal but he was definitely the last dem with any balls you definitely get a little proto-trump with LBJ. supposedly during the 68 DNC shitshow, as cops were beating on protestors outside, he considered helicoptering onto the roof of the convention and announcing that he was re-entering the primary
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Oct 18, 2020 23:00
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Was JFK's New Frontier good or was it succA Russian troll farm posted:There's only one good american president It's "funny" how the joke answers (William Henry Harrison, Zachary Taylor, David Rice Atchison) all don't work for this one because of their odious treatment of either black people and/or Native American people outside of their short terms Maximo Roboto has issued a correction as of 00:52 on Oct 19, 2020 |
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Oct 19, 2020 00:49
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It was succ compared to the New Deal or the Great Society but still far more imaginative than anything libs would propose today.
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Oct 19, 2020 00:54
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can we talk about the korean war and associated korean war crimes that america committed as a dry run for the failure/active malicious intent of america in vietnam and cambodia
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Oct 19, 2020 00:58
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harry s truman can truly s my hairy balls man
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Oct 19, 2020 00:59
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idk much about the Fair Deal compared to the New Deal but sure go for itMantis42 posted:It was succ compared to the New Deal or the Great Society but still far more imaginative than anything libs would propose today. Pairing social programs with the space race was a nice touch
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Oct 19, 2020 01:01
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short summary from history.comquote:On January 5, 1949, President Harry S. Truman announces, in his State of the Union address, that every American has a right to expect from our government a fair deal. basically the economy recovered and unlike the rest of the world we learned absolutely nothing from the great depression and decided to go full on patriotism/world's policeman after passing a couple of okay reforms, and resistance from racists and anti-communist racists along with truman being a hollow shell of the leader that fdr was meant that the fair deal was doomed to fail despite noble goals then we did this
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Oct 19, 2020 01:07
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The Fair Deal was p good and the first serious attempt to implement Universal Healthcare. Unfortunately Congress was in GOP hands, so Truman couldn't do much. At least he vetoed Taft Hartley.
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Oct 19, 2020 01:09
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Declan MacManus posted:can we talk about the korean war and associated korean war crimes that america committed as a dry run for the failure/active malicious intent of america in vietnam and cambodia One of the most heart wrenching documentaries I've ever watched was about the order the US gave to kill every refugee that tried to come through their lines. Just Einsatzgruppen level of brutality. Parents drowning their children when they wouldn't stop crying because otherwise American troops would find them and kill them.
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Oct 19, 2020 01:11
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Mantis42 posted:The Fair Deal was p good and the first serious attempt to implement Universal Healthcare. Unfortunately Congress was in GOP hands, so Truman couldn't do much. At least he vetoed Taft Hartley. I wonder if there had been any possible way to prevent the Red Scare. American culture was too squeamish towards socialism and it seemed like liberals/leftists were never able to formulate the messaging of "this is social democracy reformism that saps socialist support, read a history book about Bismarck jeez" or even remind Republicans of their own Roosevelt and their Progressive Era days
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Oct 19, 2020 01:13
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Truman was raised by insane neoconfederate racists and his wife Bess was a virulent antisemite. He never truly overcame his own bigotry but he at least grew enough to make civil rights a Democratic Party plank and made the Dixiecrats revolt. Like LBJ he embodied the duality of the Democratic Party of his era, for both good and ill.
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Oct 19, 2020 01:21
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There is quite a substantial body of academic research that a huge chunk of social democratic welfare state type of programs were only implemented in Europe and the US out of a fear of communist revolution. That, for example, local communist support was a better predictor of social democratic reform than whether social democrats or conservatives were in power. Much can be discussed about living conditions within the soviet union, but the mere existence of the soviet union led to much of the welfare state. Which is to say that I think it is unlikely that you can separate red scare and social democracy, though not necessarily in the way most people think.
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Oct 19, 2020 01:26
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joepinetree posted:One of the most heart wrenching documentaries I've ever watched was about the order the US gave to kill every refugee that tried to come through their lines. Just Einsatzgruppen level of brutality. Parents drowning their children when they wouldn't stop crying because otherwise American troops would find them and kill them. it's loving horrible, i remember reading one general estimated that they killed 20% of the population through bombing campaigns alone
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Oct 19, 2020 01:37
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