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VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm

Sphyre posted:

what do you people have against AIOs. i have a kraken x something or other mounted on the side bracket and it's Good As Hell

Shorter lifespan, more failure points, more catastrophic failure modes, potentially pump noise. Cheapest good aio (arctic freezer ii 280) is like $100 vs $60 for the fuma 2.

Edit: not that I would try to cram an arctic freezer in the nr200. Some crazy people have done it but the hose routing looks... uncomfortable. The kraken series is probably a better fit, but those are more expensive still. Probably 130-150 for a 280. For that price you could buy 2 fuma 2s and weld them together.

VorpalFish fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Oct 23, 2020

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B-Mac
Apr 21, 2003
I'll never catch "the gay"!
The glass panel on my NR200P doesn’t fit with the noctua U12A installed on the gigabyte aorus z490i, the ventilated panel does.

B-Mac fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Oct 23, 2020

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

VorpalFish posted:

Shorter lifespan, more failure points, more catastrophic failure modes, potentially pump noise. Cheapest good aio (arctic freezer ii 280) is like $100 vs $60 for the fuma 2.

Most AIOs from reputable companies last 5+ years, but I suppose it's true that you can't just leave them on there forever. Pump noise is hit or miss, but I've never had an issue with one as long as I had it installed right and put a little effort into making sure I got any bubbles out of the pump itself. Can't really say much about catastrophic failures--it's a potential risk, albeit not one that's likely to occur. Corsair, NZXT, and EVGA have been known to cover parts destroyed by leaks, but I don't think they actually have that policy in writing. Personally, I have a cheap (like $1/mo?) rider on my homeowners insurance for computer coverage, so it's not a real concern of mine in the first place, but obviously that doesn't apply to everyone.

You really don't need a 280 AIO for a CPU though, especially an AMD one with a mild overclock. There's often only a 1-3C difference in performance between a 120 and a 280 until you start getting crazy, like pushing 300W through a 10900k. An H60 is ~$80 and performs very well and should fit well in those cases.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm

DrDork posted:

Most AIOs from reputable companies last 5+ years, but I suppose it's true that you can't just leave them on there forever. Pump noise is hit or miss, but I've never had an issue with one as long as I had it installed right and put a little effort into making sure I got any bubbles out of the pump itself. Can't really say much about catastrophic failures--it's a potential risk, albeit not one that's likely to occur. Corsair, NZXT, and EVGA have been known to cover parts destroyed by leaks, but I don't think they actually have that policy in writing. Personally, I have a cheap (like $1/mo?) rider on my homeowners insurance for computer coverage, so it's not a real concern of mine in the first place, but obviously that doesn't apply to everyone.

You really don't need a 280 AIO for a CPU though, especially an AMD one with a mild overclock. There's often only a 1-3C difference in performance between a 120 and a 280 until you start getting crazy, like pushing 300W through a 10900k. An H60 is ~$80 and performs very well and should fit well in those cases.

If you aren't going 280 why go aio at all? An H60 is probably gonna straight up get beaten by the tower coolers (context of the conversation is the nr200 which can fit the fuma 2 and the u12a).

B-Mac
Apr 21, 2003
I'll never catch "the gay"!

VorpalFish posted:

If you aren't going 280 why go aio at all? An H60 is probably gonna straight up get beaten by the tower coolers (context of the conversation is the nr200 which can fit the fuma 2 and the u12a).

Agreed. I don’t see the point in using a 120mm AIO that costs more than a lot of the air coolers that fit in the NR200. Only time I think it makes sense is if you happen to have a hybrid GPU with a 120mm AIO on it, then you can fit dual 120mm AIOs on the side bracket. Otherwise a 240/280mm AIO or air cooler with a typical GPU cooler makes more sense IMO.

B-Mac fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Oct 23, 2020

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

VorpalFish posted:

If you aren't going 280 why go aio at all? An H60 is probably gonna straight up get beaten by the tower coolers (context of the conversation is the nr200 which can fit the fuma 2 and the u12a).

I haven't seen a direct comparison, but a H60 is usually +/- 1-2C from a NH-D15, so you can work your assessment from there.

The "why" is space. The guy literally said the U12A didn't fit with the NR200P with his setup. But yeah, if you can fit a nice air cooler it's not like you're going to get noticeably better performance out of an AIO--and that applies to the 280's, as well. They're total overkill for a ~150W CPU.

Now if you want to talk custom loop, then a 280 makes a lot of sense if you're wiring both the CPU and GPU into it.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm

DrDork posted:

I haven't seen a direct comparison, but a H60 is usually +/- 1-2C from a NH-D15, so you can work your assessment from there.

The "why" is space. The guy literally said the U12A didn't fit with the NR200P with his setup. But yeah, if you can fit a nice air cooler it's not like you're going to get noticeably better performance out of an AIO--and that applies to the 280's, as well. They're total overkill for a ~150W CPU.

Now if you want to talk custom loop, then a 280 makes a lot of sense if you're wiring both the CPU and GPU into it.

+/- a few degrees doesn't mean much absent noise. If you noise normalize it gets dumpstered by big air coolers.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm

Obviously if you're extremely height constrained but have room for a small aio it can make sense. But I'd never take one over a big tower cooler or a large aio given the choice because I'm sensitive to noise and want to run fans slowly.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

VorpalFish posted:

+/- a few degrees doesn't mean much absent noise. If you noise normalize it gets dumpstered by big air coolers.

At low temps, you're right, since the H60 is a constant-speed pump and therefore will generally be louder at "idle" than a good air cooler. At load it evens out to pretty similar, though. I finally found a direct comparison: https://techbuyersguru.com/corsair-hydro-h60-2018-cpu-cooler-review?page=3

But yeah, if you're looking for a "silent" PC, a constant-speed pump like the H60 ain't the way to go. Either you want the Fuma if you spend most of your time at idle / low load, the U12S if you spend most of your time at higher load, or a Kraken X41 since it's variable speed (but those are also >$100 so the value proposition is poor).

Basically if you can get away with an air cooler, you might as well do so. But if you can't physically fit it, there are viable AIO options that will do quite well.

Of course the real answer is to drink the funny-colored koolaid and go full custom loop and try really hard not to think about how you just spent more for pipes and pumps and blocks than you did on most of the rest of the system combined.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm

DrDork posted:

At low temps, you're right, since the H60 is a constant-speed pump and therefore will generally be louder at "idle" than a good air cooler. At load it evens out to pretty similar, though. I finally found a direct comparison: https://techbuyersguru.com/corsair-hydro-h60-2018-cpu-cooler-review?page=3

But yeah, if you're looking for a "silent" PC, a constant-speed pump like the H60 ain't the way to go. Either you want the Fuma if you spend most of your time at idle / low load, the U12S if you spend most of your time at higher load, or a Kraken X41 since it's variable speed (but those are also >$100 so the value proposition is poor).

Basically if you can get away with an air cooler, you might as well do so. But if you can't physically fit it, there are viable AIO options that will do quite well.

Of course the real answer is to drink the funny-colored koolaid and go full custom loop and try really hard not to think about how you just spent more for pipes and pumps and blocks than you did on most of the rest of the system combined.

When I look at that load chart I see it getting poo poo on by the u12s - 28 db vs 37 dba for 175w load and 33 vs 40 for 200w load at nominally the same temperatures. And the u12s is straight up worse than the u12a.

But yeah if money and maintenance is no barrier full on custom loop with a 280 side and 240 bottom rad is probably gonna be unbeatable.

All things of course depend on the situation and your build constraints. If I sound negative on aios it's not because I think they don't have a place; rather the dude upthread asked what was wrong with them so I was more laying out the reasons why someone might opt for air instead.

Fwiw I don't think the chance an aio from a reputable brand leaks is high at all.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

VorpalFish posted:

When I look at that load chart I see it getting poo poo on by the u12s - 28 db vs 37 dba for 175w load and 33 vs 40 for 200w load at nominally the same temperatures. And the u12s is straight up worse than the u12a.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, if you can fit them there's really no reason to consider anything other than the Fuma/U12. It's when you can't that you gotta start looking elsewhere.

The other use for an AIO is when you want really directed thermal control. For example, I'm trying to figure out a build in a Evolv Shift, which is well known for looking cool as hell and having abysmal thermals because it was designed by someone who apparently never bothered to actually run a system in one. I could toss a Fuma in there, but it would cook itself because the airflow is so poor--so I'm likely to end up either with an AIO or possibly a full loop if I get drunk enough one of these nights with my wallet near my computer, simply so I can redirect the heat out the bottom.

ijyt
Apr 10, 2012

I think in terms of my plans of getting a 3080 FE (lol), two bottom 12x25's and a Noctua NH-U12A will be the best combo for the NR200.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm

DrDork posted:

Yeah, don't get me wrong, if you can fit them there's really no reason to consider anything other than the Fuma/U12. It's when you can't that you gotta start looking elsewhere.

The other use for an AIO is when you want really directed thermal control. For example, I'm trying to figure out a build in a Evolv Shift, which is well known for looking cool as hell and having abysmal thermals because it was designed by someone who apparently never bothered to actually run a system in one. I could toss a Fuma in there, but it would cook itself because the airflow is so poor--so I'm likely to end up either with an AIO or possibly a full loop if I get drunk enough one of these nights with my wallet near my computer, simply so I can redirect the heat out the bottom.

The evolv shift is brutal for thermals especially if you want the glass version. I can definitely see going with 2 120mm aios for that case with one on the gpu (or custom loop with 2 120 rads).

Again not totally against aios, just presenting the case for the other side.

Coredump
Dec 1, 2002

External rads and quick disconnects.

necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll
Nap Ghost
An AIO for SFF to me is better suited for GPUs rather than a CPU unless you're running primarily CPU-bounded tasks like non-GPU accelerated video encoders all dang day. GPU power usage has climbed dramatically for the mid and upper end while for consumer CPUs it's mostly held steady or dropped within their respective user tiers.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

VorpalFish posted:

The evolv shift is brutal for thermals especially if you want the glass version. I can definitely see going with 2 120mm aios for that case with one on the gpu (or custom loop with 2 120 rads).

Of course I got the glass version! ~*~aesthetics~*~

I am idly considering doing the CNC mods to the front and rear panels, though, since apparently just drilling some holes in them drops internal case temps by like 15C, which is...not indicative of a well designed case. gently caress, I wish it didn't look so good and I could convince myself to use a much more sensible case. Plus I haven't found a local CNC shop, anyhow.

The best part is that it only sorta supports 2x 120's, in that you have to get thin ones and use thin fans on them. If I go custom loop I might just do one of the double thick (~50mm) 120s, since last I checked there wasn't much performance difference between a double-thick 120 and 2x normal 120's.

That a block for a 3080 is gonna cost ~$170 is an obnoxious price-add, but AFAIK no one's yet released any G12-style AIO adapter for the 3080, since NVidia went and changed the mounting holes for the first time in like a decade. Drunk engineer me wonders how effective zip-ties through the holes would be in holding a AIO block on, though, because dumping 300+W of heat into that case with an air-cooled 3080 doesn't sound like the best plan.

necrobobsledder posted:

An AIO for SFF to me is better suited for GPUs rather than a CPU unless you're running primarily CPU-bounded tasks like non-GPU accelerated video encoders all dang day. GPU power usage has climbed dramatically for the mid and upper end while for consumer CPUs it's mostly held steady or dropped within their respective user tiers.

Oh yeah, AIOs on GPUs even for non-SFF cases is magical. Better thermal performance, lower noise, and you can actually dump all the heat out of your case instead of hot-boxing everything inside. I've been running them since the 980Ti, and A+ would recommend.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm

The evolv shift is actually the first sff case I wanted to build in cause it does look very cool but in finally managed to convince myself I could never make the thermals work at noise levels I could live with.

Edit: you are literally a crazy person if you put a 300w gpu in that case.

VorpalFish fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Oct 23, 2020

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

VorpalFish posted:

The evolv shift is actually the first sff case I wanted to build in cause it does look very cool but in finally managed to convince myself I could never make the thermals work at noise levels I could live with.

Oh, it's totally doable. Just for $500+ with a custom loop, at which point it looks fantastic. Or you use an AIO-equipped GPU--that all the 3080's are going with 280+ AIOs angers me.

Funny thing is, it's not really a small case to begin with. Frankly what I really want is a Corsair One, but those guys are always a year or so behind with components and don't support TB3, so I'd have to give up 10Gb networking, and that ain't happening.

ughhhh
Oct 17, 2012

What's a suggested size for an aio for a gpu in a cramped case like the nr200. Is the general consensus of 120mm rad per component still apply for sffs?

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

ughhhh posted:

What's a suggested size for an aio for a gpu in a cramped case like the nr200. Is the general consensus of 120mm rad per component still apply for sffs?

If you've got the space for it, get a 240/280. Not because it'll actually cool much better, but because you get much better options in terms of variable speed pumps (which you want) at only slightly higher costs. If you're just looking for the cheapest, you could do a H60 or similar, but they're constant-speed and thus a bit louder than a lot of people would prefer, given that a SFF is often located closer to you / more obvious than noise in a tower case shoved under a desk would be.

From a pure cooling perspective, a 120mm is more than sufficient for either a GPU or CPU, though as noted up-thread there are generally quieter CPU options available if you can fit them.

CyberPingu
Sep 15, 2013


If you're not striving to improve, you'll end up going backwards.
When is the U12a chromax supposed to be out?

I'm torn between that and the Scythe.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Vigil for Virgil posted:

When is the U12a chromax supposed to be out?

I'm torn between that and the Scythe.

When they figure out how to grab the black dye bottle instead of the brown one.

So probably never.

ijyt
Apr 10, 2012

Vigil for Virgil posted:

When is the U12a chromax supposed to be out?

I'm torn between that and the Scythe.

Q1 2021, they have a roadmap on their site but not sure how often they update it.

B-Mac
Apr 21, 2003
I'll never catch "the gay"!
Take any release date noctua gives you and add two years to it to get the actual release date.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm

They're still working on the miniature black hole generator so the brown fans can properly absorb light and appear black please be patient.

Hed
Mar 31, 2004

Fun Shoe

Computer Serf posted:

Check out some openwrt compatible hardware
https://www.gl-inet.com/products/gl-ar750s/
most of these are about the same size as the pi and come with more internal storage and ram than most other options.

Also these are nice fanless x86 opensource routers ranging from 150 and up. Wireless modules optional. Not smaller than a pi tho.

https://protectli.com/products/



Those fanless enclosures look great! Thanks

drw
Aug 26, 2020

There can be no justice, so long as laws are absolute. Even life itself is an exercise in exceptions.

Silverstone mini says hi. It is not the best case out there but it is probably one of the cheapest and it does the job.

buglord
Jul 31, 2010

Cheating at a raffle? I sentence you to 1 year in jail! No! Two years! Three! Four! Five years! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!

Buglord
The SG13 is one I try to replace with something else but it’s just way too good in the <$200 price range. Everything else is either too big or restricts GPU length or CPU cooler height in some way. The Dan A4 has been my ideal upgrade for a while now but then I’d have to deal with the NH-L9i which has trouble with my stock i7 8700. And then there’s the $200 price tag and no mass production which always gives me enough time to talk myself out of it. ITX is an illness which takes and takes.

Romes128
Dec 28, 2008


Fun Shoe
The Lian Li TU150 is really good for around that size also.

Duck and Cover
Apr 6, 2007

Sphyre posted:

what do you people have against AIOs. i have a kraken x something or other mounted on the side bracket and it's Good As Hell

Aesthetically no good in the nr200p. No reason to use the glass panel if I'm just going to be staring at a radiator.

CyberPingu
Sep 15, 2013


If you're not striving to improve, you'll end up going backwards.

ijyt posted:

Q1 2021, they have a roadmap on their site but not sure how often they update it.

Hmmmnggggg that's not cool. Guess I'll go with the scythe

NicelyNice
Feb 13, 2004

citrus

buglord posted:

ITX is an illness which takes and takes.

I went deep into the rabbit hole of ITX really quick. I hurt my leg and combined with the COVID-19 situation have been mostly staying inside since the start of September. I last built a computer in 2014, but haven't really used it in the last couple years and have been using Mac laptops, but somehow found my way to Optimum Tech videos on YouTube. In my mostly homebound situation, totally binged watched pretty much all the content over the past year or so which convinced me I need a new ITX PC, despite not having a great use case for one other than I guess I kinda wanna play Cyberpunk 2077?

Originally was set to go for an NZXT H1 when I thought I'd at least check it out in person and it ended up being a lot heavier/bigger than I expected for some reason. The NR200 which I was also considering was a bit bigger than I thought. The store also had a DAN A4, however, and really loved the size, but wasn't sure on the thermals and I was only 80% in love with the design (the aluminum sheets felt a little cheap, I don't like the curve or the way the side panels attach). I would have gone for it, but it's really expensive here ($380 USD in Japan, yikes) and for that price I wanted something I absolutely love. I thought about waiting for the Formd T1, but figured it'd be well into next year before I could get my hands on one so I ordered a Ghost S1 on Taobao (still over $350 USD after shipping...) and I'm waiting for it to arrive.

Not sure if I should wait for the Zen 3 and maybe a 3070 if I can find one that fits this case or just go ahead and get a 3600 and something like a 1660 Super and sell those later on (used electronics hold their value fairly well in Japan).

CyberPingu
Sep 15, 2013


If you're not striving to improve, you'll end up going backwards.
Is it worth paying almost double for the Noctua over the Scythe? I can't find anything to justify it or is it just Noctua is a more well known brand?

Sphyre
Jun 14, 2001

don't you have a 280mm corsair aio lying around? use that

Duck and Cover posted:

Aesthetically no good in the nr200p. No reason to use the glass panel if I'm just going to be staring at a radiator.

TG panels don't belong in an sff build as it's space that should be used for ventilation :colbert:

CyberPingu
Sep 15, 2013


If you're not striving to improve, you'll end up going backwards.

Sphyre posted:

don't you have a 280mm corsair aio lying around? use that


TG panels don't belong in an sff build as it's space that should be used for ventilation :colbert:

I'm selling that off. I tried to fit it in and it was a mess. I don't like side mounting the radiator and I'm done with aios

CyberPingu fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Oct 24, 2020

ijyt
Apr 10, 2012

Vigil for Virgil posted:

Is it worth paying almost double for the Noctua over the Scythe? I can't find anything to justify it or is it just Noctua is a more well known brand?

I don't think so, I think the Fuma 2 and NH-U12A are pretty much on par for noise and performance.

e: Decided to say gently caress it and order the NR200P from Newegg as I saw it shipping from the UK and :negative:

ijyt fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Oct 24, 2020

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm

Vigil for Virgil posted:

Is it worth paying almost double for the Noctua over the Scythe? I can't find anything to justify it or is it just Noctua is a more well known brand?

If you're talking about the U12A what you're actually paying for is the 2 fans it comes with. The A12x25 fans are basically the best all around 120mm fan out there although there are some that come close for like 40% of the price.

The fuma 2 is a solid value, so if you care about perf/$ it's kind of a no brainer over the U12A.

CyberPingu
Sep 15, 2013


If you're not striving to improve, you'll end up going backwards.

ijyt posted:

I don't think so, I think the Fuma 2 and NH-U12A are pretty much on par for noise and performance.

e: Decided to say gently caress it and order the NR200P from Newegg as I saw it shipping from the UK and :negative:



Shhhh ouch. Glad I pulled the trigger now

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Sphyre posted:

TG panels don't belong in an sff build as it's space that should be used for ventilation :colbert:

:emptyquote:

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Coredump
Dec 1, 2002

I'll be honest I know the Cooler Master is the objectively better case but for a living room pc that's gonna live in my entertainment center I'm probably gonna end up with the SG14 or SG15 to replace my old SG05.

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