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Sudden Javelin posted:Three Houses having lore and countries/regions etc that have no bearing on anything except to add flavour was a welcome return to form after Fates literally didnt even name the world Agreed. Also in general, I don't think every bit of worldbuilding needs to be plot relevant in general. Sometimes worldbuilding just exists to make a setting feel more "real".
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Oct 26, 2020 20:52
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I get the impression that the intent for Fates was for Hoshido and Nohr to be the “continents,” in the same way that Ylisse/Archanea and Valm were the names for two continents and also for one of the constituent kingdoms on each landmass. And the Fates world does have various minor principalities and such. Really, I think the problem is one of presentation. There’s no map beyond an unmarked satellite view, so you can’t tell where any of the borders are. You also can’t see where you’ve come from or where you’re going. Basically, you never get any sense of where things are relative to each other, beyond the facts that Nohr is in the West, Hoshido is in the East, and there’s an ocean to the South. I could name places like Dia, Cyrkensia, and Cheve, but gently caress if I know where they are on the map. e: Also, it’s been a while since I’ve played Birthright, but I’m pretty sure that campaign has like six maps in a row after you cross into Nohr where you’re effectively teleporting across the country to random places with no particular rhyme or reason. Conquest has something closer to a logical geographical progression. Zoran fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Oct 26, 2020 |
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Oct 26, 2020 21:04
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Nohr has the Kingdom of Krakenburg/Krakenberg/that loving place where the castle is a Deftones song which is Garon's main stomping ground and the Kingdom of Macarath, too. Hoshido has Koga and Mokushu and Shirasagi. Like, there are enough places to create some lore, it's just kinda... not bubblegum'd as well as other continents/settings. Which you'd think a development that basically split the game into Like sure, Archanea/Ylisse and Valentia/Valm has 7 games (even if 4.5 of those games are just remakes, it still counts) from which to build some lore, but hell: Tellius, Elibe and Jugdral all have 2 and I would actually argue that they did even a better job of pulling you in to get tangled up in its lore/setting. Like for all the poo poo I give 3H, Fódlan is a pretty interesting continent in a pretty loving dire situation. FE can totally do rad settings/srories.
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Oct 26, 2020 21:48
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As long as the next fire emblem is one game instead of 3 I'll probably be satisfied
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Oct 26, 2020 21:51
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cheetah7071 posted:As long as the next fire emblem is
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Oct 26, 2020 22:02
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I feel like you can reasonably do a split-route in FE without many problems, IntSys just needs to stop trying to cram everything together because Duma be damned, come on. Alternatively... Leon got robbed. He could've had a Valbar-level himbo in Raphael.
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Oct 26, 2020 23:30
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we've had route splits that have worked before but it does seem like trying for full game splits is biting off more than they can chew at the very least they should just stick to 2
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Oct 26, 2020 23:36
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The only one that works is 8. RD was a mess. And while I enjoy Fates it's not for the story.
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Oct 26, 2020 23:39
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Gaiden was fine.
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Oct 26, 2020 23:44
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6 has a small split too and it's fine rd was at least interesting but it again goes for too many
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Oct 26, 2020 23:45
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Endorph posted:otoh lysithea and edelgard's support is one of the best in the game. This is true, you'd probably want to leave a few characters recruitable for people like Lysithea or Ashe who have good reason to side against their house or compelling stories that can be told around that. On the subject of route splits, I think having multiple armies like Gaiden or RD is a good idea and there's a reason Fire Emblem keeps coming back to that well; switching between multiple protagonists keeps things fresh. RD had a hell of a lot of problems, but I think the second half of part 3 was resonant and memorable in a way Path of Radiance never quite reached. But the game-long splits like Fates or TH are just too ambitious for Intelligent Systems. There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea; it's just that they've failed to execute on it twice now, and frankly I hope they give up rather than giving it a third attempt.
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Oct 26, 2020 23:56
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I wasn't really counting those 2, but if we count RD then we count Garden so that's fair. I always forget about 6 because I haven't really played the Japanese exclusive ones because of reasons.
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Oct 26, 2020 23:58
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I dunno if you could call 3H a failure when it's really clear that the route split is a big part of why it's successful. Like if it had to be cleaned up, I'd say that they should have recognized people would want to side with El earlier on in the development and just had a Lions vs Eagles split with Deer letting you pick which of those houses you supported, though I think El's route would suffer if there was also no Church route. 3H is messy, but I don't think it's anywhere near Fates when it comes to the route splits.
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Oct 27, 2020 00:13
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Despite not wanting multiple routes in the next game, I wouldn't describe 3h as a failure. The split route has obvious appeal, but it doesn't come without a cost: all four routes are less than they would have been if they were the only route, with the possible exception of azure moon, which is the most completed one. Personally, I don't think that tradeoff was worth it (and fates proves that it can be a significantly worse tradeoff) and would rather they just put all that extra effort into either polishing a single route until it shines, or spending less time working on the game and accelerating their release schedule.
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Oct 27, 2020 00:18
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Yeah I guess "failed to execute" was a little strong. But there are big problems with the second half of the game, and they stem mostly from the split attention that comes from the route split. The best thing about the route split in 3H is that it made IS willing to write main characters who were much more interesting than the series usually gets. Both Edelgard and Dimitri are morally compromised in a way the heroes of previous games aren't, and it makes their stories more compelling because they don't need to appeal to everybody.
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Oct 27, 2020 00:27
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It's a failure in that it made less money than luigi's mansion with probably a fraction of dev time
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Oct 27, 2020 00:29
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Luigi’s Mansion, the traditional barometer of success. E: I don’t think anybody’s even talking about sales? I’m so confused.
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Oct 27, 2020 00:31
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fates is in some ways better, or at least more ambitious, in its route split than 3houses. at least the routes aren't functionally identical maps in slightly different order I'm not sure how the route split is what made the game successful. maybe edelgarde's route specifically since she was supposed to be the villain at first but otherwise, I think it's the school stuff and all the standard support aspects that gave the game broad appeal. like yea the monastery doesn't stand up to close scrutiny but most people won't give it that because they play 1 route and move on
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Oct 27, 2020 00:52
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Manatee Cannon posted:fates is in some ways better, or at least more ambitious, in its route split than 3houses. at least the routes aren't functionally identical maps in slightly different order A bunch of maps in both games are recycled across routes. The way this criticism gets levied doesn't actually make any sense to me though, a chapter in Fire Emblem is more than just the map: enemy placement/composition and objectives add their own forms of variation to the game experience.
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Oct 27, 2020 01:03
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The first half of 3 houses doesn't have much variety with those things either between the routes.
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Oct 27, 2020 01:14
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I love the route split in 3 Houses, as well as the flexibility of classes, and both of these factors have encouraged me to play through the game multiple times. However, it's also my first Fire Emblem, so I have nothing to compare it to. What I would like to have seen though, which the DLC campaign made me realize, was a little more variation in how the maps worked. There were some creative maps with unusual or changing objectives in the main campaign, but I felt like some of the most creative maps were in the DLC campaign. ...Or at least that one where you had to run from the Golem was really cool. I liked that one a lot because it felt genuinely different from other maps.
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Oct 27, 2020 01:17
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There are far more unique maps across the different versions of fates than in three houses, and even when the maps are the same in fates they have significantly different enemy composition and win conditions. In three houses they don't even change your starting position for Grinder depending on which faction you're fighting with!! That's basically a gimme!
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Oct 27, 2020 01:58
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More importantly, the vast majority of the duplicate maps are in the universally despised third route. There are very few maps shared between Birthright and Conquest. (Actually I’m not sure there are any beyond paralogues for shared characters, though it’s been awhile.)
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Oct 27, 2020 02:01
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The Sage tower or whatever it's called and Izumo are the only 2 maps shared between the main routes. And the universal Paralogues which is like 6 maps.
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Oct 27, 2020 02:04
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Luigi’s Mansion, the traditional barometer of success. Tae just posts random confrontational poo poo for no reason, ignore him.
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Oct 27, 2020 02:10
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Walla posted:The Sage tower or whatever it's called and Izumo are the only 2 maps shared between the main routes. And the universal Paralogues which is like 6 maps. Cheve, the Ice Tribe Village, the opera house, and the boat maps are also shared between Birthright and Conquest
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Oct 27, 2020 02:18
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Missed 3H pair up chat earlier, but did they ever fix that bug where they never triggered so nobody cared beyond support/skill building? I think it was something dumb like supports reduced the chance to proc instead of increasing it
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Oct 27, 2020 02:41
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Scrap Dragon posted:Cheve, the Ice Tribe Village, the opera house, and the boat maps are also shared between Birthright and Conquest How'd I forget all of that?
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Oct 27, 2020 02:44
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Yeah they did, but it's basically attack adjutants are still a hilariously trigger rate and do no damage because the designer rightfully has ptsd from Awakening/Fates. Guardian and Healer ones work fine, healers get a varying amount of heals per map that trigger when you're under half hp, guardians seem to always save you from death and are probably the most useful, but I don't really care to min/max them or rely on them.
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Oct 27, 2020 02:44
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I'd love to explore the "Weapon uses as MP essentially" system on the physical side. I think it was a great jump for mages to just go full "You have X amount of spells, they have Y amount of uses, go nuts on the map" I think that's interesting design space in FE.
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Oct 27, 2020 02:55
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Yeah per-map durability is definitely an interesting idea.
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Oct 27, 2020 02:56
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Onmi posted:I'd love to explore the "Weapon uses as MP essentially" system on the physical side. I think it was a great jump for mages to just go full "You have X amount of spells, they have Y amount of uses, go nuts on the map" I think that's interesting design space in FE. My ideal world is they buff combat arts a lot, and let those function as physical spells, while just auto attacking is unlimited. But moving towards per map is the way to go either way.
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Oct 27, 2020 03:00
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I'd love to see Arts further refined. Like, give each weapon 3 combat arts and let characters learn 2-3 arts each but don't make them a stat to be equipped, they just are. I feel this would work well going back to tighter class restrictions.
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Oct 27, 2020 03:20
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Manatee Cannon posted:fates is in some ways better, or at least more ambitious, in its route split than 3houses. at least the routes aren't functionally identical maps in slightly different order I think, if nothing else, Edelgard as we know her is a product of the route split, and that's sufficient to justify the idea. Being able to see a character as both villain and hero depending on your choices and the prospective you start with from makes for something you don't get in a standard Fire Emblem. Three Houses also fulfils Fates' promise of different routes in the same game, rather than selling them separately, making them (outside of the special edition) feel more like separate games that share maps and characters. (Which probably means Awakening sold much more than Conquest or Birthright individually, given how small the sales gap was.). I agree that the series shouldn't repeat the split next time, but not every game needs every feature. (Also, 6 and 7 style subroutes are much easier to manage.)
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Oct 27, 2020 03:21
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Three Houses benefited from having a route split but suffered from too much route split. Just simplify it into a side with/against Edelgard split and most every issue is solved.
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Oct 27, 2020 03:41
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They can do whatever they want with durability and route splits or whatever just dont give us 15 maps spread over 60 chapters
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Oct 27, 2020 03:43
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I do think with Three Houses they can pretty much put to bed the concept of playing as different armies/sides fighting each other which is a concept they've been playing with since Radiant Dawn. It feels like a theme they kept coming back to because they weren't satisfied with how they'd explored it, but Three Houses seems a fairly complete version and hopefully they can move on now. e: this is separate from the route split, which goes back to Arran and Samson and Gaiden. Metis of the Chat Thread fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Oct 27, 2020 |
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Oct 27, 2020 04:02
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Scrap Dragon posted:Cheve, the Ice Tribe Village, the opera house, and the boat maps are also shared between Birthright and Conquest The opera house actually has a different layout, not just a different starting position & enemy composition as those other three have.
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Oct 27, 2020 05:45
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Isn’t Birthright Cheve the map that’s mostly a wide open plain with cavaliers/paladins and Conquest’s the town with like three bosses? Like, id argue that how Birthright and Conquest handle the opera house are different too, same with the ice village to a lesser extent, but Cheve just has the border wall as it’s one similarity.
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Oct 27, 2020 06:11
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Last Celebration posted:Isn’t Birthright Cheve the map that’s mostly a wide open plain with cavaliers/paladins and Conquest’s the town with like three bosses? Like, id argue that how Birthright and Conquest handle the opera house are different too, same with the ice village to a lesser extent, but Cheve just has the border wall as it’s one similarity. Birthright has the Cheve map but you start from the southwest corner instead of the north side of the river. Then it has a separate map where you attack the border wall, with a bunch of horsemen out front and Charlotte+Benny guarding the entrance.
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Oct 27, 2020 06:18
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