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It’s been a year but I am still in disbelief at how horrible TROS is The only thing i can compare it to is hobbit 3
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Nov 8, 2020 01:33
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AdmiralViscen posted:It’s been a year but I am still in disbelief at how horrible TROS is Idk, in terms of a mess it feels more like Lynch's Dune but with like none vision. Actually, better comparison: Batman Forever.
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Nov 8, 2020 01:44
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:The ME3 ending was actually made worse by the Extended Cut patch. I don't agree, though actually the red ending was
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Nov 8, 2020 04:24
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Mass Effect 3 burned down the setting to such a degree that Andromeda had to be set in another galaxy to avoid the implications of the ending. RoS is merely inept storytelling, it's not an extinction level event for the setting.
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Nov 8, 2020 04:45
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If they're legit done with the Skywalker family and their heirs in the Star Wars movies post-TROS, then either do a big, badass KOTOR trilogy or do some sequels that take place so goddamn far forward in the future, there's no need to avoid tripping over canon bibles and past plot devices/contrivances. That's what Star Trek Discovery season 3 has done and 3 episodes in, it's working. No more "A+B=C" that requires certain events to play out for historical accuracy purposes, because A, B and C have been dead for 931 years and the rest of the galaxy is focused on X, Y & Z.
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Nov 8, 2020 04:51
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Angry Salami posted:Mass Effect 3 burned down the setting to such a degree that Andromeda had to be set in another galaxy to avoid the implications of the ending. RoS is merely inept storytelling, it's not an extinction level event for the setting. it was also a prequel, which as we all know are bad
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Nov 8, 2020 05:00
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Angry Salami posted:Mass Effect 3 burned down the setting to such a degree that Andromeda had to be set in another galaxy to avoid the implications of the ending. RoS is merely inept storytelling, it's not an extinction level event for the setting. To be fair the Sequel Trilogy did much the same to the Star Wars setting. Basically everyone is dead and every institution, whether good or bad, that made the setting unique has been wiped out. And none of the remaining characters have any motivations or goals whatsoever, so they have nothing that might make a good jumping off point for a new narrative. It's still not completely unusable because you can do small scale low stakes stories like The Mandalorian but it's ability to tell "big" stories is fatally compromised.
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Nov 8, 2020 05:24
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Alchenar posted:In the original sketches of Star Wars the Emperor had been around for a thousand years and only later revisions had the Empire be a relatively recent thing. The idea that the Emperor is a character linked to a form of immortality has always been floating around the background notes of the IP. IIRC in a later draft the emperor was just an isolated figure head and the real power was in figures like Tarkin CelticPredator posted:I like the ST ending. I think it’s weird they stopped at 2 movies tho.  I didn't even like Last Jedi that much but it absolutely would have worked as a better ending instead of the harry potter poo poo we got in Rise
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Nov 8, 2020 05:36
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Who cares about the setting being changed at the end of the story?!
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Nov 8, 2020 05:59
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Blood Boils posted:IIRC in a later draft the emperor was just an isolated figure head and the real power was in figures like Tarkin.
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Nov 8, 2020 06:01
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2house2fly posted:Who cares about the setting being changed at the end of the story?! Well, when the story's about 'saving the galaxy', and your ending destroys the galaxy, people feel it's not a very satisfying ending.
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Nov 8, 2020 06:07
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Bongo Bill posted:Mass Effect had impressive cinematic aspirations, but games have a long way to go before they can be as stupid as The Rise of Skywalker proves movies can be. You say that, but Kojima. Then again, games know how to embrace the stupid.
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Nov 8, 2020 06:13
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2house2fly posted:Who cares about the setting being changed at the end of the story?! Theres a big difference between the setting being changed and the setting being destroyed. Like RotJ changed the setting in massive ways (before TFA decided that it didn't) but ROS or ME3 left nothing else to tell stories about. Now that can be good if you're writing that kind of story, but ROS and ME3 definitely weren't those kind of stories.
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Nov 8, 2020 07:36
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2house2fly posted:I don't agree, though actually the red ending was Destroy's the only sensical ending. Blue is just weird and raises too many questions (although it could make for a great God-Emperor of Mass Effect kinda sequel), and Green is somehow even worse and made Joker's hat sentient. The complete destruction of the Mass Relays is the only way the series could ever end, once it was revealed that they were a Reaper trap. multijoe posted:The AI telling you it needs to do the thing because conflict between organic and synthetic life is inevitable a few hours after you solved the intractable conflict between a synthetic race and its organic creators and your character can only go 'okay I guess that checks out' is also extremely bad writing and just as brainless a way to end as Rise of Skywalker imo Not really. Are the Quarians and Geth going to stay buddies for the rest of time? That's what the AI Space Baby is trying to get at. Eventually, the Catalyst posits, the Geth or Quarians will result in an existential conflict, one that will spiral out of control and result in the end of all organic life. Another thing it gets at is that, inevitably, synthetic life will simply outcompete organic life. The problem is more that I don't think any of this is told particularly neatly, nor is it a very satisfying conclusion for a third-person squad shooter. When you get right down to it, the Reapers and the Catalyst are just the Shivans from Freespace, but less interesting. That is, an unfathomable species with ominous black and red ships that comes out of nowhere at a certain point of societal advancement and culls those civilizations, thereby allowing the next generations a chance to evolve, grow and prosper. Preservation and destruction interlinked.
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Nov 8, 2020 09:22
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Of course, the Catalyst's solution to 'synthetics may wipe out organic life' is 'built giant robots to wipe out organic life so they don't build synthetics', so there are some subtle flaws in its logic.
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Nov 8, 2020 10:12
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The big problem with the synthetic organic dichotomy in Mass effect is that it's obviously not what they were thinking of originally. Quorians and geth tell that story, but the same themes of domination and submission play out in the setting over and over again with just organics. You have the salarians and the krogan, where the Krogan were literally raised up as tools for war before being discarded when they proved problematic. You have the turians and the humans, where it's established the first game that the turians opposed human expansion and that the turian human war was incredibly one-sided. If humans had not proved themselves through Sheppard, humans would have stayed stuck. You have the Asari and everyone else, since finding the beacon on their homeworld catapulted the Asari way beyond the other species. You have the Hanar and the Drell. And you have the big three species, and all the smaller ones like the Volus and Elcor. It seemef like the story was going to be about how the growth of one civilization would eventually make it so that no new civilizations could ever rise up again, sort of in the same way that the Reapers were so far above Galactic civilization that they literally shaped the growth of every civilization to appear after them. You even have the idea in the third game where they are literally taking apart organics and putting them back together as if they were synthetics pointing ultimately to the idea that there is no difference between the two. But then like the sequel trilogy, this was left right at the end and said it's really about terminators. Just like how a series of movies that seem to be about the ultimate redeeming power of love over hatred, became about channeling all the dead members of your kung fu cult so that you can shoot the biggest chi blast ever and kill Satan. E: having read up on the Shivans it does seem that Mass Effect copied them wholesale lol. Leah something new every day. I really like that theme Mass effect so it's not surprising that it was stolen from somewhere else
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Nov 8, 2020 10:55
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Wait, did Star Wars really end like Dragon Ball Z
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Nov 8, 2020 11:43
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The Little Death posted:You even have the idea in the third game where they are literally taking apart organics and putting them back together as if they were synthetics pointing ultimately to the idea that there is no difference between the two. well, this is always true. Miranda and Grunt are synthetic people, genetically engineered with only one or zero actual parents - they are robots made from hydrocarbons rather than metals. this is true of all science-fiction: in Rossum's Universal Robots, the robots are humans made from synthetic flesh; in Star Wars, the droids are enslaved persons, not machines designed to enjoy servitude synthetic vs organic is the specific phrasing because Hudson believes artificial intelligence will be the technological trigger for this existential crisis (in the same way that nukes were the technological trigger for for the crisis of global castastrophic war) but if you drop the anthrochauvinism synthetic vs organic describes most conflicts in the game. it's equivalent to generational conflict or, more simply, two entities trying to exist in the same space and annihilating one another in the process. it's this nuance that the Shivans lack (Freespace being an unfinished trilogy, of course)
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Nov 8, 2020 12:40
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And now I'm pondering comparisons of Dragon Ball Super to the Star Wars sequels. Possibly in a Gallant and Goofus sense. Both even bring an iconic villain back from the dead, involving the remnants of his empire, back around for another shot having learned a few things.
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Nov 8, 2020 12:41
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Wait, did Star Wars really end like Dragon Ball Z Pretty much, but it couldn't even land that right. At first Sheev wants Rey to kill him to complete the Sith ritual that will transfer the combined will of the Sith from him to her so she doesn't, then he tries to fry her with lightning at which point she does just send it back at him and melts his face off. So at the end Rey is either now the walking incarnation of the entire line of Sith Lords or the film just forgot the pivotal plot point it had set up just minutes ago.
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Nov 8, 2020 13:06
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multijoe posted:Pretty much, but it couldn't even land that right. drat, you weren't kidding. I do wonder if this is just Disney reverting to type and treating it like a Disney Princess movie, which tend to end in a decidedly conclusive fashion. (despite that they keep making sequels anyway)
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Nov 8, 2020 13:44
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Angry Salami posted:Well, when the story's about 'saving the galaxy', and your ending destroys the galaxy, people feel it's not a very satisfying ending. galagazombie posted:Theres a big difference between the setting being changed and the setting being destroyed. Like RotJ changed the setting in massive ways (before TFA decided that it didn't) but ROS or ME3 left nothing else to tell stories about. Now that can be good if you're writing that kind of story, but ROS and ME3 definitely weren't those kind of stories.
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Nov 8, 2020 15:14
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Wait, did Star Wars really end like Dragon Ball Z “Kame hame ha” is a literal translation of “I am the Jedi”.
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Nov 8, 2020 17:58
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multijoe posted:Pretty much, but it couldn't even land that right. At first Sheev wants Rey to kill him to complete the Sith ritual that will transfer the combined will of the Sith from him to her so she doesn't, then he tries to fry her with lightning at which point she does just send it back at him and melts his face off. So at the end Rey is either now the walking incarnation of the entire line of Sith Lords or the film just forgot the pivotal plot point it had set up just minutes ago. Sheev's first plan was for Rey to kill him and take her place on the throne of the Sith Then he realized he could use the power of the Dyad to heal himself, so he abandons having Rey replace him and instead opts to once again put himself in charge of things Alas, he forgot that his only weakness is his own lightning and fries himself like the last two times he tried to take over the Galaxy
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Nov 8, 2020 19:32
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People complain about ME3's terrible ending but few talk about how it fell apart long before the final cutscene. The first two games are crammed full of subplots, side quests, and codex entries about all the stuff you need to gather to stop the Reapers. None of it matters. The Leviathan was retconned out twice, no crazy Volus billionaire, did you save the Rachni?, No planet sized cannons, The Geth's entire motivation is retconned to contradict all their previous actions. All the choices and you made ended up meaning zilch. And for a series whose big selling point since before the the first game was even released was "All the choices you've made over the first two games will matter to the third" thats unacceptable. And to top it off they "solve" the evil Robot invasion with the dumbest most nonsensical means possible. The entire game revolves around building a big incomplete gadget that no one knows what it does or how it works. Even besides the fact that this reduces the story to pressing a big off button for the villains, how pray tell are you supposed to finish a machine that you don't know what it does or how it even works, and as we learn in the story, it's inventors didn't either. It could be an ice cream maker for all the heroes know. Tuchanka was basically the only part of the game that followed up on anything from the previous games, which is probably why it's the only part anyone fondly remembers,
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Nov 8, 2020 19:43
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"That's not what the Empire would have done Commander. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would have dropped a bomb down there and blown the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done." - Han Solo, Destiny's Way
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Nov 8, 2020 21:43
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galagazombie posted:People complain about ME3's terrible ending but few talk about how it fell apart long before the final cutscene. The first two games are crammed full of subplots, side quests, and codex entries about all the stuff you need to gather to stop the Reapers. None of it matters. The Leviathan was retconned out twice, no crazy Volus billionaire, did you save the Rachni?, No planet sized cannons, The Geth's entire motivation is retconned to contradict all their previous actions. All the choices and you made ended up meaning zilch. And for a series whose big selling point since before the the first game was even released was "All the choices you've made over the first two games will matter to the third" thats unacceptable. And to top it off they "solve" the evil Robot invasion with the dumbest most nonsensical means possible. The entire game revolves around building a big incomplete gadget that no one knows what it does or how it works. Even besides the fact that this reduces the story to pressing a big off button for the villains, how pray tell are you supposed to finish a machine that you don't know what it does or how it even works, and as we learn in the story, it's inventors didn't either. It could be an ice cream maker for all the heroes know. Tuchanka was basically the only part of the game that followed up on anything from the previous games, which is probably why it's the only part anyone fondly remembers, I still LOL that the reapers move the Citadel over earth just so that the climax can be on earth. Also still LOL about the Rachni Queen popping up briefly in 2 if you saved her promising her help. And then in 3, if you DIDN'T save the Rachni Queen back in ME1 they're like "huh weird I guess the reapers artificially built one somehow"
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Nov 9, 2020 19:48
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ME3 was damned from the start, as "every decision from two previous games carries over and is meaningful" is drat near unachievable to any degree of satisfaction.
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Nov 9, 2020 20:36
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I don't think it was an impossible task, they did deliver the goods with Tuchunka so it was at least viable to produce a reactive and satisfying end to one of the trilogy's major plotlines in a satisfying way but the game would have needed a much longer development period to replicate that level of quality across the entire game, more like a CD Projekt Red development cycle than a standard AAA two year turnaround. That still wouldn't have solved the ending, but that didn't seem to be fundamentally a problem with the dev time so much as Casey Hudson suddenly deciding he was an auteur when it came to writing the conclusion and locking the other writing staff entirely out of the process so 
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Nov 9, 2020 20:48
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ME3's ending is bad but here's the secret: the whole trilogy is bad.
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Nov 9, 2020 20:50
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the part where the skeleton boss from contra appeared was pretty good
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Nov 9, 2020 21:05
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Neo Rasa posted:I still LOL that the reapers move the Citadel over earth just so that the climax can be on earth. Oh yeah remember how the entire plot of the first game revolves around you discovering that if the Reapers get to the Citadel they can shut off the Relays, leaving everyone trapped with no way to fight back? How doing so was literally the cornerstone of their entire modus operandi? The Reapers apparently forgot that. Hell since the Citadel was literally some stupid robot child who was the "real" mastermind why didn't he just turn it off himself?
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Nov 9, 2020 21:45
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I really didn't think that ME3 was that bad. Nobody at the time thought the story was bad, they just thought the ending was bad and people have retrospectively extended that judgement backwards. The series consistently held that the Reapers could not be defeated conventionally. The crucible is a hail mary decent plot device for a game three that's thematically about finding hope in hopeless situations. And then when you get to the end you find out that the thing works exactly as you hoped it would - it'll destroy all reaper tech in the galaxy. There's consequences to that. I think it was more telling about player psychology than anything else that people were perfectly willing to watch Shepard sacrifice people in space and land battle cutscenes to get themselves a shot at the crucible, but got absolutely furious when they were told that the button they needed to push the save the galaxy and destroy the reapers meant actively sacrificing some characters they liked.
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Nov 10, 2020 01:17
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I thought the story was bad straight through (except tuchanka). Gameplay was worse also I remember people on launch day hating on the earth intro with the ghost child. And Kei Ling, that might have even been before launch in that book they released. Hell people had big problems with ME2’s conclusion even though they liked the game, and worried that 3 would be more like that (it was)
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Nov 10, 2020 01:23
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It's incredible how little there is left to say about star wars
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Nov 10, 2020 01:26
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I think the odds of Disney not trying to pull the nostalgia strings with future Star Wars movie are 1 in 100000000. That's literally all they know how to do in ALL of their tentpole movies. Is it the same problem in the comics? At least with Marvel movies they can pull some rando character from the comics that only the super nerds know. Does current canon even have distinct characters in the comics?
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Nov 10, 2020 01:33
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People had critiques of the story at the time - but critiques of the ending were sucking up all the air.
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Nov 10, 2020 01:35
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The incoherence of the ending of the Mass Effect trilogy is pretty well-telegraphed in hindsight, but if you're into it, it can keep you still thinking it's going somewhere good until remarkably late in the game. The Rise of Skywalker, by contrast, puts all its cards on the table before the first act is over.
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Nov 10, 2020 02:03
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The Rise of Skywalker lacks a shockingly fun multiplayer mode. edit: Wait, is this thread the multiplayer mode?
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Nov 10, 2020 02:14
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Bongo Bill posted:The incoherence of the ending of the Mass Effect trilogy is pretty well-telegraphed in hindsight, but if you're into it, it can keep you still thinking it's going somewhere good until remarkably late in the game. The Rise of Skywalker, by contrast, puts all its cards on the table before the first act is over. it's not well-executed in terms of pacing/editing but I don't think it qualifies as incoherent - the game pretty explicitly lays out its thesis in the final dialogue with the Catalyst incoherent is the climax of Rise of Skywalker, in which Rey murdering Palpatine is good, then bad, then good; Kylo Ren is alive, dead, alive then dead again; so on and so on
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Nov 10, 2020 02:29
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