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Oh my god the first 15-20 minutes of WOR is absolutely insufferable
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Nov 8, 2020 19:38
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i havent listened to WOR in a while is dave always a little baby boy when gedo gets questioned?
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Nov 8, 2020 19:44
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it was extra annoying here, but dave tends to conflate decisions bookers think they need to make for business and decisions that make sense to the viewer all the time, he does the same style defense when bryan calls something out on wwe shows and it's endlessly frustrating. guessing this one was so touchy because gedo (rightfully) gets the benefit of the doubt.
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Nov 8, 2020 20:01
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Fans don't care as much if the inconsistent decision bends toward justice.
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Nov 8, 2020 20:39
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People also seem to be weirdly freaking out over Gedo... doing very similar booking to how he ran Naito’s end of 2019.
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Nov 8, 2020 20:44
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I think it's hurting them to insist on the belts being connected but not officially unified. This storyline would make way more sense if Naito, for instance, refused to defend the IC title against White due to the disputed finish, and let Kota challenge for that. You could even use that to split the titles.
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Nov 8, 2020 20:51
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Procrastinator posted:Was jay whites legs 7 feet in the air not a disputed finish? English commentary seemed to be pushing that it was. I just watched it and it didn't come off that way at all to me, neither from the guys in the ring nor from english commentary.
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Nov 8, 2020 21:38
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Defending the titles separately makes zero sense. It's some real WWE brain poo poo. If the champ drops the IC belt but not the IWGP the latter is seriously devalued. And in kayfabe you'd have to be a major dumbass to settle for one of the belts when you could have both. I'd get it if people were asking for vacating the IC title, makes some sense, but they have like a dozen other belts, they have a whole bunch of tourneys running, and they can't run shows at full capacity so...why bother now? What would NJPW get out of having the IC title back in the picture at the moment
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Nov 8, 2020 22:56
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SLUM KING posted:Defending the titles separately makes zero sense. It's some real WWE brain poo poo. If the champ drops the IC belt but not the IWGP the latter is seriously devalued. And in kayfabe you'd have to be a major dumbass to settle for one of the belts when you could have both. A second title that can main event shows, for instance when they're running the same building two nights in a row.
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Nov 8, 2020 23:50
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I found the argument annoying too, though I do actually like the Ibushi decision - the only issue I really have is that the announcement was made on a press conference which means I haven't seen it, and I don't know if they're running with what I presume is the sensible angle of: Switchblade gets the title shot despite not deserving it and cheating to get there, but Ibushi gets the title shot because he deserves it and the Champion is willing to give him the shot he was unfairly screwed out of. If it leads to an arrogant Switchblade convinced he is gonna get a cheap win again due to either Naito or Ibushi being banged up, only to have everything fall apart when he gets beaten and loses despite all his cheating, I'll be a very happy camper 
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Nov 9, 2020 06:22
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That’s pretty much Naito’s reasoning in the press conference. He presents it as Jay pulled a chickenshit move and basically stole the shot so he’s like “you can wait”, and he also just wants to beat up Ibushi first because he’s pissed that Ibushi looks like he’s better at the G1 than him since he won back to back and did three consecutive finals and Naito’s never managed that. So it’s a little bit of being a fair champion and a little bit of “hey you gently caress, don’t you outshine me, I wanna put you down where you belong before I attend to this annoying pecking bird named Jay White”. Naito also threatened to boycott the shows if he didn’t get his way. Because of course he did.
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Nov 9, 2020 06:36
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I dunno, it feels more like they decided on 2 nights again just to make up the lost revenue from limited crowds and are now trying to reverse-engineer a story out of it. Like, last year's double-shot was advertised a full year in advance and the year was mostly built around the Double Gold Dash. This feels ... not as carefully thought out.
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Nov 9, 2020 07:00
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Yeah I don't think this was planned till they knew they wouldn't be able to fill the place or even go 2/3rds so they went with a double booking just to sell more tickets I think the big problem is even if they sell out 20,000 people that can only clap is gonna make the Dome feel like the 2004-2005 shows even if the crowd ends up being hot.
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Nov 9, 2020 07:04
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Bryan was 100% dead on that if WWE did that, they would be getting poo poo on so hard.
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Nov 9, 2020 07:16
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Gaz-L posted:A second title that can main event shows, for instance when they're running the same building two nights in a row. Have they had any issues drawing without the IC title cuz it sure doesn't seem like it's been an issue at all. I sure hope they have a surprise that's at least half as big as Jericho/Omega or Liger's retirement cuz the current plans ain't doing much for me even though I love all three guys in the title picture.
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Nov 9, 2020 07:21
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SLUM KING posted:Have they had any issues drawing without the IC title cuz it sure doesn't seem like it's been an issue at all. They've had one tour under normal conditions without the IC and that had the benefit of Jon Moxley on the other night.
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Nov 9, 2020 07:23
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sportsgenius86 posted:Bryan was 100% dead on that if WWE did that, they would be getting poo poo on so hard. I don't follow NJPW closely enough to know if it makes sense for Naito to do, but I can definitely see it working in AEW. For example if Jericho or MJF stole the title shot from Hangman or Darby or something and Mox (or even someone like Cody but in a more thinks too highly of himself than an is a badass way) was like "gently caress it I'll still give them the shot then destroy you afterwards" they could make that feel good and in character. edit: What I mean to say is that people poo poo on things happening in WWE not only because it's WWE doing them but because WWE does everything badly and has done nothing to earn the benefit of the doubt
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Nov 9, 2020 07:31
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Yeah the plan sure seemed to be to elevate the US title and Hiromu. I am sure it would have worked out just fine. Anyone know how the Japanese fans are feeling about this WK poo poo?
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Nov 9, 2020 07:40
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sportsgenius86 posted:Bryan was 100% dead on that if WWE did that, they would be getting poo poo on so hard. 1) The track record of how WWE handles Money in the Bank winners (they are routinely jobbed out and half the time they seem to forget they even have the contract) versus the way NJPW handles them in general/Ibushi specifically. Since officially making the G1 = "a title match at Wrestlekingdom" the tournament's been won by Okada (x2), Naito (x2), Tanahashi (x2), Omega, and Ibushi (x2). WWE's Men's MITB winners in the same time period have been Dolph Ziggler, John Cena, Damien Sandow, Randy Orton, Seth Rollins, Sheamus, Dean Ambrose, Baron Corbin, Braun Strowman, Brock Lesnar, and Otis. 2) IWGP title shots happen less frequently and have more logic attached to them, and "Naito really wants to give Ibushi a title shot because he deserves one" means more when it's not just one of three title matches Naito is forced to do with very little explanation or justification in the span of four weeks. 3) Both title defenses are being set up two months ahead of time, which is something WWE rarely has the foresight to do. Sometimes the "if WWE did this we'd hate it" feels tautlogical, like yes, "organization with bad track record will get less positive response for potential plans than organization with good track record". You could put out the same plot synopsis for an upcoming film, and people will respond differently if it's "written and directed by the Coen Brothers" versus "written and directed by Dennis Dugan". Bryan was right in the sense that Dave's repeated "well for business you need two world title matches" is an entirely separate argument from "from a story perspective I hate this", and they were literally arguing over each other, and Gedo probably could have found a better way to get to the two main events he wanted. I was ready to give Gedo extra leeway to his long-term-booking stuff (like what will main event the Tokyo Dome(s)) this year since moving the G1 from July/August to September/October but that was before I remembered that they had moved the G1 pre-pandemic so as not to interfere with the Olympics that didn't happen. I'm still willing to cut a little slack for the pandemic though.
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Nov 9, 2020 15:39
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i liked when dave was talking about the super hot angle for page/kenny being the reunion moreso than the singles feud. i know that story's probably a lot further out but the crowds are already primed to absolutely explode for them getting back together
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Nov 9, 2020 15:50
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wwe literally had a heel steal the mitb briefcase 2 weeks ago and proved that they had no plan around it based on the aftermath.
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Nov 9, 2020 16:06
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Procrastinator posted:wwe literally had a heel steal the mitb briefcase 2 weeks ago and proved that they had no plan around it based on the aftermath. they also have had no plan when Otis won it in the first place, so they at least they're consistent.
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Nov 9, 2020 16:12
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Lone Goat posted:they also have had no plan when Otis won it in the first place, so they at least they're consistent. yes this is true you are correct. It's just funny how the company constantly shows its rear end but people still think it's unfairly maligned.
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Nov 9, 2020 16:23
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Otis
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Nov 9, 2020 16:38
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Edge & Christian posted:He's not wrong but at this point there are so many variables between "if WWE did ________" and "if anyone else does it", just from the sense of: I mean, it's New Japan. They're obviously going to handle things, even kinda dumb things, in a much better way than WWE. But on principle, they held a month long round robin tournament that is consistently sold as the toughest thing to win, all for the briefcase to challenge at the Tokyo Dome. They've been building up these briefcase defenses for a few years now and they finally have someone take the case from the G1 winner and not only does the guy who lost the case get a shot anyway, he gets one before the briefcase guy by being nice to the champion? They're working to make it logical, which is way more than WWE would do, but it being logical doesn't keep it from being stupid IMO. At the end of the day, it's going to be fine and WK will be awesome, it just seems like lazy booking to me and I expect better from Gedo, tbh.
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Nov 9, 2020 16:57
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sportsgenius86 posted:I mean, it's New Japan. They're obviously going to handle things, even kinda dumb things, in a much better way than WWE. But on principle, they held a month long round robin tournament that is consistently sold as the toughest thing to win, all for the briefcase to challenge at the Tokyo Dome. They've been building up these briefcase defenses for a few years now and they finally have someone take the case from the G1 winner and not only does the guy who lost the case get a shot anyway, he gets one before the briefcase guy by being nice to the champion? Undoing the month long killer tournament because a blind ref counted 3 on a hosed pin would be beyond stupid. This way everyone gets what makes sense. Also challenging second is an advantage in this scenario because you get to be fresh against a beaten up opponent. It's simple.
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Nov 9, 2020 19:01
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the "WWE would be crucified if they did this" thing is such an incredibly asinine, stupid thing to say so I'm not surprised it came from Bryan half the poo poo New Japan does would get WWE crucified by the fans, the difference is that New Japan has built goodwill with their fans and Gedo's booking pays off 99 percent of the time. also, the G1 is about way more than just the Wrestle Kingdom title shot, considering you didn't even get a title shot for what, twenty loving years of its existence? WWE has rotted Bryan's brain and apparently a lot of fans as well
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Nov 9, 2020 22:21
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otis eats the briefcase
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Nov 9, 2020 22:24
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sportsgenius86 posted:I mean, it's New Japan. They're obviously going to handle things, even kinda dumb things, in a much better way than WWE. But on principle, they held a month long round robin tournament that is consistently sold as the toughest thing to win, all for the briefcase to challenge at the Tokyo Dome. They've been building up these briefcase defenses for a few years now and they finally have someone take the case from the G1 winner and not only does the guy who lost the case get a shot anyway, he gets one before the briefcase guy by being nice to the champion? I'll take issue with some of that- the point of winning the G1 is to win the G1 - they try to treat the tournament as super special and a great accomplishment. And you pointed it out there - they've had these briefcase defences for years (arguably they shouldn't have), one should have finally worked. Ibushi is still protected so of course he lost via fuckery, and this is a fine storyline to give them a double main event. I mean, I don't enjoy Bullet Club matches because the interference heat goes many times too far for my liking, but this isn't necessarily the worst New Japan thing.
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Nov 9, 2020 22:58
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if you just force jay to use his briefcase on the 4th and set the ibushi match for the 5th, I think the choice hits better for me, personally.
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Nov 9, 2020 23:11
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Procrastinator posted:if you just force jay to use his briefcase on the 4th and set the ibushi match for the 5th, I think the choice hits better for me, personally. I think the problem there is that White has no reason to defend the titles against Ibushi if he wins on the 4th. Wheras if Ibushi wins on night 1, it's in character for him to want White so as to get his win back.
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Nov 9, 2020 23:34
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Gaz-L posted:I think the problem there is that White has no reason to defend the titles against Ibushi if he wins on the 4th. Wheras if Ibushi wins on night 1, it's in character for him to want White so as to get his win back. Uh, a champion doesn't get to just not defend the title if they don't feel like it.
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Nov 10, 2020 01:50
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Low Desert Punk posted:also, the G1 is about way more than just the Wrestle Kingdom title shot, considering you didn't even get a title shot for what, twenty loving years of its existence? G1 winner usually did get a title shot shortly after. The WK title shot thing just wasn't concrete until 2013.
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Nov 10, 2020 03:00
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Gaz-L posted:I think the problem there is that White has no reason to defend the titles against Ibushi if he wins on the 4th. Wheras if Ibushi wins on night 1, it's in character for him to want White so as to get his win back. if they didn't need to sell tickets to both nights, having naito win on the fourth first and then call out Ibushi would be a cool version, imo. But there's no way that'd work, sadly.
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Nov 10, 2020 03:03
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Tonfa posted:Uh, a champion doesn't get to just not defend the title if they don't feel like it. And a guy who lost his last singles match against the champion typically doesn't get to jump to the front of the line.
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Nov 10, 2020 03:19
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Breaking my long period of lurking to bring the good news - today's WOR starts with a 10 minute argument where Dave and Bryan argue past each other about the semantics of what makes babyfaces and heels!
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Nov 10, 2020 12:57
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Nero42 posted:Breaking my long period of lurking to bring the good news - today's WOR starts with a 10 minute argument where Dave and Bryan argue past each other about the semantics of what makes babyfaces and heels! It’s exactly what you expect and it’s beautiful. And Bryan is absolutely right in this one.
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Nov 10, 2020 13:03
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Nero42 posted:Breaking my long period of lurking to bring the good news - today's WOR starts with a 10 minute argument where Dave and Bryan argue past each other about the semantics of what makes babyfaces and heels! 
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Nov 10, 2020 13:05
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Punch McLightning posted:It’s exactly what you expect and it’s beautiful. And Bryan is absolutely right in this one. the true observer gorumet learns that despite the different personalities of how Bryan is red blooded and Dave is sanguine the fact is most of the time Bryan is right
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Nov 10, 2020 13:10
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Oh my loving god they’re arguing again
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Nov 10, 2020 13:56
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