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If you're coming here for advice, the first thing is going to be: identify the pest. If you're having trouble with that take pictures of what they're doing/leaving behind and someone can probably lead you in the right direction. Let's talk pest control. I'm going to stay away from ag-type controls and talk about home/yard/garden type controls. I'm coming at this as someone who was a landscaper (a real long time ag) and through that a certified commercial applicator. I'm now a certified private applicator ("farmers license"). I rarely need my license because things have come a long way from every solution involving buying a 5 gallon pail of restricted use deathicide and for better or worse, a lot fewer things are restricted use these days. If they're restricted they're things that are scary toxic enough (to humans or the environment) that I'll usually be able to find another way at anything smaller than agricultural scale. IPM - "Integrated pest management" is the new term for the enlightened methodology of doing things. It's not just spraying poison around, but includes physical methods, cultural controls, pest/herbicides designed to kill, and pest/herbicides designed to interrupt lifecycles. This required actually understanding both the pest you are targeting - behavior and lifecycle as well as the methodology any chemicals you are using acts on this pet and potentially others. That ends up requiring a lot more detective work and looking up a lot more information. Your local county ag extension is typically going to be a great resource for local information, because they know what's causing problems in your area right now, this time of year. While the thread is absolutely intended to get into your specific problems, there's a few things that we should cover generally to start: 1.) Labeling and safety for you, your pets and the surrounding wildlife The label is the law. Read that again. The label on a pesticide container is legally binding law. It was approved by the EPA before the material was allowed to be marketed. When it says something, there are good scientifically tested reasons behind it. You should actually read the label, not only looking for how and how much to apply, but also for the precautionary statements and environmental statements. Very common pesticides can be quite harmful and even deadly to pets in even the smallest amounts. Some animals simply don't have the ability to metabolize what's found in some of these pesticides and will become very sick or die. One of the big ones that gets used a lot Is Talstar P. It's a general use outdoor spray application for everything from mosquitoes to ticks. It's not really great for you, so I wouldn't suggest drinking it or anything, but it's on the safer side for you. And your dogs. But cats and fish can't break down this class of pesticide AT ALL and will die with exposure to even small amounts. So you need to keep cats out of the yard until this stuff is completely dry. The label will tell you this, or at least indicate something that will tell you there is a risk factor that you should be looking up before application. By the way, this class of pesticides - pyrethrin/pyrethroid - is commonly used for canine flea/tick collars and medication. So yeah, don't use your dog's flea and tick stuff on your cat. It's very much not "close enough" in a lot of cases. And since fish don't take well……don't let your recently treated dog jump in your koi pond either. 2.) Personal protective equipment All the gear, all the time. Read the label. It will tell you what is required. Don't be dumb - if you're spraying outdoors don't do it with the wind in your face, even if you are wearing a P100, glasses and long sleeves. When you're done, clean everything, and wash your drat hands. I think we're all used to this by now. 3.) Application procedures This still ends up being in the safety category, but it's a distinct thing. I'm going to finish this one up later, but it's a lot of how to properly and safely measure and mix out liquid sprays and how to clean your equipment afterwards.
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Oct 21, 2020 21:56
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Boring, where's the good stuff? Okay, you know how I said most of what you need isn't restricted use? https://www.domyown.com/ and Amazon. Go nuts. But understand what you're buying. Let's say you need roundup. You can go to the big box store and spend $30 on a gallon container with a lovely sprayer attached that's mixed at under 2% active ingredient or figure out that active ingredient is glyphosate and you can buy a gallon of it at 41% for $42. Or a pint for $14, which is still 6x more active ingredient than that ready to spray gallon. Yeah, you'll need to buy a sprayer but they're not all that expensive, and work a LOT better than the disposable ones on those ready to mix containers. How to figure out what you want to use? I already suggested your county ag extension. It's probably run by one of your state ag schools. They're awesome. As well as other ag schools. The kinds of research, papers and materials they publish for free is mind blowing. Here's mine: https://extension.psu.edu/insects-pests-and-diseases/pest-management-and-education/public-homeowners Motronic fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Oct 22, 2020 |
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Oct 21, 2020 21:56
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Basic indoor supplies for the northeast: (tbd) Basic yard supplies for the northeast: (tbd) Basic vegetable garden supplies for the northeast: (tbd) Gear: (tbd)
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Oct 21, 2020 21:56
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Because of COVID my car is now also a restaurant booth and is messier than it's normal rolling trashwagon state. I have been seeing tiny black ants crawling around in it and I wish they weren't there. Aside from not being so slovenly, is there some kind of trap or bait I can put out for them?
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Oct 21, 2020 23:58
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:Because of COVID my car is now also a restaurant booth and is messier than it's normal rolling trashwagon state. I have been seeing tiny black ants crawling around in it and I wish they weren't there. Aside from not being so slovenly, is there some kind of trap or bait I can put out for them? Yes, super easy, very much non-toxic to pretty much anything other than ants. Terro. It's borax and sugar water. They make very handy traps in a few configurations: https://www.terro.com/terro-liquid-ant-baits-2-pack You should be able to find these at any hardware store and most grocery stores. Note, this is not a neurotoxin-style pesticide. They don't die as the touch it/as you spray it on them. I'm gonna go all IPM on this: borax interferes with the digestion of ants. Worker ants, the ones you can see, pick it up out of your bait traps and will eventually die, but so slowly that they have plenty of time to get back to the hive and spread it to the rest of the ants. So this is a "yeah it takes 2 weeks, but it actually solves the real problem" rather than spraying Talstar and killing the workers basically immediately and a few days later more ants come out of the hive and you're right back where you started. This stuff is literally so safe you and your dogs and cats could drink it daily and suffer no ill effects. To me, that's the perfect targeted pesticide. There are only a few others that are quite that good that I'm aware of.
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Oct 22, 2020 00:21
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Are there any additional benefits to hiring out pest control to a professional rather than DIYing it? I was under the impression of "they have access to stuff you don't", but with the internet and Amazon, that doesn't even seem to be the case anymore. I have cats, so I've always hired out just for ease of mind. It would be great if I didn't have to pay someone $120 to spray the perimeter for ten minutes.
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Oct 22, 2020 12:34
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Bioshuffle posted:Are there any additional benefits to hiring out pest control to a professional rather than DIYing it? Yes. They still have access to stuff you don't. Knowledge, techniques and rote experience. DIY isn't for everyone.
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Oct 22, 2020 16:50
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Seconding https://www.domyown.com/, it's a great site. I bought some Bifen I/T a number of years ago but it hasn't been doing as well this year as it was in years past at controlling my ant population. Does this stuff (pest control products in general) have a shelf life?
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Oct 22, 2020 20:25
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FCKGW posted:I bought some Bifen I/T a number of years ago but it hasn't been doing as well this year as it was in years past at controlling my ant population. Does this stuff (pest control products in general) have a shelf life? They absolutely do. Have you been storing it climate controlled or outside and freezing? Also, Bifen is a special case - that's an IGR. It needs to get put down at the right time in the lifecycle of the pests to do it's job as an "insect growth regulator" i.e. "sterilization agent".
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Oct 23, 2020 01:58
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Motronic posted:They absolutely do. Have you been storing it climate controlled or outside and freezing? It's been outside in my shed that doesn't freeze but it gets hot as poo poo. I don't know much about when to apply Bifen, I usually just apply it when it starts to get hot in the summer and the ants start looking for water sources in the house. Generally I leave them be outside.
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Oct 23, 2020 02:08
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FCKGW posted:It's been outside in my shed that doesn't freeze but it gets hot as poo poo. Either your storage or you application can explain this. Let's start with this: what are you trying to control with bifen? Secondly, what is you USDA zone? https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/PHZMWeb/
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Oct 23, 2020 02:40
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Motronic posted:Either your storage or you application can explain this. Let's start with this: what are you trying to control with bifen? Secondly, what is you USDA zone? https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/PHZMWeb/ I'm in zone 10a. I have regular black ants outside in my yard that mind themselves most of the year but then when it starts to heat up in the summer they start to come inside the house. I would usually spray some Bifen around the house perimeter and they would stay outside for the rest of the summer. That didn't really happen this year so I'm looking to see why that was and what I should do.
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Oct 23, 2020 02:49
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FCKGW posted:I'm in zone 10a. Oh so you're WAY south of what I'm used to. First idea would be that you can use Talstar P outside if that's a problem, but talking about inside I'd be all over Maxforce (https://www.domyown.com/maxforce-complete-granular-bait-p-1603.html) Temprid (https://www.domyown.com/temprid-ready-to-spray-p-2657.html) and Advion (https://www.domyown.com/advion-ant-bait-gel-p-932.html?sub_id=23226). Because as I understand this these aren't bugs that are trying to live inside......they just go wherever the gently caress the want. It's different than trying to control pests that will seek to live in warmth in the northeast. So big caveat: this isn't my specialty. I hope we get some people who can answer that may have lived close to that zone sooner than the 20 years ago I did.
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Oct 23, 2020 03:09
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I got linked here from the Home Owner thread so I'm quoting myself for some extra advice/condolences:Epi Lepi posted:Is this the advice thread? I don't know where else to post this but I wanna know how hosed I am and what I should do. I will add I'm very much not a DIY person I am quite happy throwing money at a problem until it goes away I just don't know if I'm throwing my money the right way right now.
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Nov 10, 2020 05:50
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Yikes, this can be real bad. Basically there's no fixing this if there are untreated areas inside of your building. You can cut down on the number you see, but they'll always be there unless everyone gets rid of them. So let's start this way: call the condo board back. Tell them your exterminator says these are stragglers coming from another unit. This is the kind of thing they should be getting involved with. Do you know which unit it is? I mean, it's likely to be obvious. One of them is a trash golem and the exterior will probably be a give-away. If the condo board won't, you can ratchet this up to your county department of health. They may or may not be able to assist. Now down to control measures: you have to live like you have a permanent roach infestation. No food anywhere accessible. All sealed in containers. All counters and food prep surfaces must be wiped down immediately bother before and after use. You can try.....TRY to physically block them by making sure all baseboard trim it caulked. You can even caulk your outlet covers on, but there are air sealing type things that will be less messy. You should be able to find them at any big box store. Not much of this is likely to be successful, because if the can't get through at the closest wall they're just gonna keep on moving through walls. I wish I had better news on this front, but frankly I don't. This sounds like the kind of infestation that needs multiple treatments of all units if it's going to be handled in a timely fashion. And behavioral changes on the part of the trash golem for the treatments to work.
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Nov 10, 2020 15:59
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Motronic posted:Now down to control measures: you have to live like you have a permanent roach infestation. No food anywhere accessible. All sealed in containers. All counters and food prep surfaces must be wiped down immediately bother before and after use.
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Nov 10, 2020 19:36
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 Wife just saw this fucker near the attic entrance in my two-story house. Sure looks like a termite to me. I've been up in the attic as recently as December but haven't seen any signs. I'm in the midwest (St. Louis metro), and where I'm from I'm only used to seeing these with pretty obvious mud tubes going up the sides of buildings. It's been in the high 20s-low 40s the past week and I was just lamenting how I saw a stink bug and obviously the vents and fixtures aren't sealed as well as I would like. It's a few hours until I get home, is it premature to go order some Bora-Care? I have a pretty large attic and can move around OK, biggest issue will be it's got blown insulation so kind of hard to see all the members completely. There are also a few sections of the attic mostly cut off by OSB so not sure how I'd completely spray those compartments. I would appreciate any tips or stories of how you'd do mitigation. Obviously I will need to inspect the members, roofing, and deal with any damage already dealt. Only other thing about this attic is the 2nd story HVAC is up there as well, as well as vents. Edit: OP’s right I may not have heeded Step 1... someone told me this might be a lacewing, which I haven’t seen before, and the abdomen seems to match up much better. Still leaving this up so that the internet can tell me to stop a logistics build up for WW3... Hed fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Jan 25, 2021 |
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Jan 25, 2021 20:30
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I don’t think that’s a termite, but I am no expert. The winged ones usually swarm in warm weather, and where there’s one there’s a million. The do my own pest control site has a decent ID guide. That being said, if you are in a termite prone area (no idea if st. Louis is-maybe subterranean but hopefully not Formosan?) you should have a termite bond of some sort on your house.
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Jan 25, 2021 21:32
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Doesn't look anything like a termite to me. I see those around my backdoor sometimes and I think they just fly in from outside.
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Jan 25, 2021 21:58
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Thanks all. I appreciate the quick feedback before I went down the bad Able Archer 83 path.
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Jan 26, 2021 14:19
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Woodticks, man. Last year mowing the lawn, I got 22 woodticks at a single time. The mosquitos are vicious but they've never carried me off. I'm ready to spend some money (sub 1k), but rather than pay someone I'd like to buy the tools and do it myself. My plan is to buy a backpack sprayer with a couple gallon tank. I am thinking of a a Permethrin solution and broadcasting it over all the foliage around the property that humans go. Going to wear a respirator and cover all my skin when I do this. I am near a waterbody, I understand I cannot get ANY in the water and cannot put it on any non-permeable surface. I'm confused with the concentration I should use. Reading the label, 2% is the legal maximum for my application, am I interpreting this correct? Should I go nuclear and do the legal limit with my broadcast? Or is 0.5% fine? Should I use an IGR? Is it worthwhile? Are there other options for tick and mosquito control? Or separate tick and mosquito? This is a cabin property we visit monthly, surrounded by hundreds of acres of forest. My treatment size is 1 Acre all outdoors. Some of those "mosquitto traps" that use propane look interesting but I can only do maintenance monthly. Also a flame that isn't attended makes me nervous.
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Jan 28, 2021 23:08
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IGRs are expensive. And likely unnecessary and ineffective in this application. I'd be using Bifenthryn, A.K.A. Talstar P at 1 oz per gallon. Is there a reason you chose Permethrin SFR? It's typically used for termites. Talstar is going to take care of both ticks and mosquitoes. Well, maybe mosquitoes. It sure will kill them, but out inf the woods the might just come right on back from outside of the area while you're there. You'd be wise to spray with a concentrated garlic extract (like this: https://www.amazon.com/Mosquito-Barrier-Liquid-Spray-Gallon/dp/B0013JMS5M/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=mosquito+garlic&qid=1611872394&sr=8-3) when you arrive each time.
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Jan 28, 2021 23:20
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The Permethrin I only chose as "a buddy" uses this on his hunting cloths and it repels ticks. I'll take a look at the Talstar and come up with questions... What makes the IGR ineffective in my application? I have always assumed that the mosquitos would just move in once they local population is dead, the Talstar will linger? The garlic is interesting... would it be effective to using the Talstar maybe twice (or 3) times a season, but garlic each time?
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Jan 28, 2021 23:36
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horse_ebookmarklet posted:The Permethrin I only chose as "a buddy" uses this on his hunting cloths and it repels ticks. Yeah, that's a completely different usage and isn't going to work the same for spraying. horse_ebookmarklet posted:What makes the IGR ineffective in my application? Because of exactly this. The population is going to keep moving around. If you're in what sounds like a wet area mosquito habitat and all you're treating is one acre in the middle you're not going to be overwhelmingly successful with an IGR. They'll just come in from elsewhere. Also, you're not likely to be overwhelmingly successful with any one method which is why: horse_ebookmarklet posted:The garlic is interesting... would it be effective to using the Talstar maybe twice (or 3) times a season, but garlic each time? Yeah. The garlic makes them go away in like....hours. It lasts for a month or so, depending on the amount of rain. Talstar hangs around as well, and seems to be even more rain safe. But again, I think the talstar will take care of your ticks pretty well, and maybe put a dent in the mosquito population, but you're going to need immediate acting stuff to be really comfortable, which is why I suggested the garlic spray. FYI, IGRs and the propane attractors you mentioned kinda work the same way: their real usage is to be around all season and break the breeding cycle. I don't think that's going to be successful based on the location. I could be wrong, I'm just basing this on typical cabin type properties I'm familiar with.
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Jan 28, 2021 23:46
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Motronic posted:IGRs are expensive. And likely unnecessary and ineffective in this application. Would a hudson sprayer work for a smaller area with the garlic concentrate? Or even just a handheld spray bottle? We live in the woods, and it would be great to have something that's actually effective to just keep them away from the deck or back yard for summer evenings.
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Jan 29, 2021 02:58
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Blowjob Overtime posted:Would a hudson sprayer work for a smaller area with the garlic concentrate? Or even just a handheld spray bottle? Absolutely. It's all about application speed and how much you need to cover. I spray with a backpack sprayer to cover around 3/4 acre. As long as you can atomize the stuff and get it on the grass and shrubs it's gonna work*. * Some other goon in another thread said their mosquitos weren't bothered by this stuff so to be clear, i'm in the northeast. So I can tell you for suer it works on whatever kind we get in Eastern PA and the Catskills in NY.
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Jan 29, 2021 16:08
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A bought a "Mosquito Sniper System" that attaches to my EGO leaf blower and use that with Talstar P to hose down my bushes and trees and it obliterated the mosquitoes in my backyard (North Texas). Afterwards one of the trash trees along the fence line died suddenly and I'm not sure if that was related or not, so maybe be careful and test it on a few branches first if you go that route.
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Jan 29, 2021 16:56
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SpartanIvy posted:A bought a "Mosquito Sniper System" that attaches to my EGO leaf blower and use that with Talstar P to hose down my bushes and trees and it obliterated the mosquitoes in my backyard (North Texas). Bifenthryn is completely inert to plants. Its method of action is a neurotoxin that messes with sodium channel gating.
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Jan 29, 2021 17:08
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Got complaints, the 5 year old found 10 ticks on the first day at the cabin. As discussed I used the Talstar-P instead of the permithrin. The label says 1 gallon per 1k sq ft, but that is for a hand sprayer. What about the backpack sprayers? Using 9 gallons of water (9oz 7.9% concentrate) I did approximately 25k square feet. If the same rule applies I should have used 25 gallons and 25 Oz which seems like a LOT, but I do not have a good sense of this. Did I way-under apply? Will I get return on $$ if I apply more? (If I double, or triple?)
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Apr 16, 2021 01:20
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I consider backpack sprayers to be hand sprayers. It's easier to put things down heavier, so sometimes you'll see different recommendations but in general the real distinction is hand/backpack vs. a powered spray cart/device where you're getting into testing nozzles for flow and GPS tracking the spped you intend to spray at (there are super cool ag school apps to help with this). I think you may have un-applied a bit, but just like big sprayer cart stuff you've now found that with the nozzle you use full coverage takes you 9 gallons. So mix it at the label rate for the square footage based on 9 gallons covering it IF and only if this application doesn't do what you need it to. I'd give it a week and see how things go. You can do a make-up 9 gallon batch mix to bring it up to the recommended concentration per sq. ft. But less is fine, providing it gives you the results you want. Exceeding the label instructions is bad. And illegal.
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Apr 16, 2021 22:33
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Yea before I go tinkering I'll wait and see if the ticks were knocked down, and I will probably go once again (in 2 weeks) with the 1oz:1gal as I am still learning the sprayer. I also haven't tried the garlic yet, but mosquitto season starts soon... Let me rephrase what I think you said, using the numbers that I would use. Since I want to apply to 25k sq ft, I should use 25 Oz absolute maximum spread evenly over the area. Given I did this in 25k in 9 gallons (3 batches of 3 gallons), I could use 2.7Oz per gallon (so 8.3 per 3 Gal Batch). The key to doing this legally and per the instruction is that I am targeting 1 Oz of concentrate per 1k sq foot. Is that correct?
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Apr 18, 2021 02:22
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Yeup. Exactly that. You've got it. Hand sprayer instructions are dumbed down to the point of almost no math because people don't pay attention. You are, so you're understanding how this is supposed to work. I would need to check the label but I believe you have 2 full strength applications per year for that. Could be 3. I deal with a lot of stuff and am not double checking labels right now, but make sure you know what you can do and this year you can start figuring out a schedule that works for you.
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Apr 18, 2021 02:39
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Rereading the label again I can now see how the 1oz/1ksqft is allowable. It is a little tricky in that it constantly suggests the 1oz:1gal ratio, but then later says do not exceed this other value. Makes sense to dumb it down, but the label itself is still a doozy! The other confusing thing is the label specifies all the different usages (livestock, greenhouses, perimeters, termites, outdoor pest control, etc). In the "Pest Control on Outside Surfaces and Around Buildings" section it states this: "For the lower use rates, repeat application should be limited to no more than once per seven days. For the high use rate of 1.0 fluid oz. Talstar®P Professional Insecticide per gallon of water, do not apply more than once per four weeks" So I would interpret this as my application (outside surfaces). Given that my first application was at a lower rate I am OK to retreat in two weeks (if I need it), but if I go nuclear 1oz/1kSqFt I need to wait 4 weeks. Thanks for this great resource of a thread!
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Apr 18, 2021 03:04
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The bad thing is ALL the labels are like that (because they are legal documents that require EPA approval), the good thing is that they all have the same type of format so now that you've slogged through one you know what you're looking for on others.
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Apr 18, 2021 15:08
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Found a family of wrens in my attic. Google says it’s a major disaster waiting to happen and I need to remove them ASAP, other homeowning friends think it’s not a big deal as long as they aren’t making a mess or damaging my attic. What do you guys think? I plan to plug up the hole they got in through once they leave, obviously.
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May 9, 2021 18:00
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ProperGanderPusher posted:Found a family of wrens in my attic. Google says it’s a major disaster waiting to happen and I need to remove them ASAP, other homeowning friends think it’s not a big deal as long as they aren’t making a mess or damaging my attic. What do you guys think? I plan to plug up the hole they got in through once they leave, obviously. I wouldn't call it a complete disaster waiting to happen, but I'd make sure you get it sealed up after they leave. And maybe encourage an easier place for them to nest. Put up some nesting boxes, especially near bushes/a tree line if you've got them. They like that kind of thing and it just might be more attractive than trying to break into your attic.
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May 9, 2021 18:35
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Crosspost from the Horticulture thread. Are there any good outdoor wasp/hornet traps y’all recommend? Mostly for paper wasps and the like. I just busted a few trying to build a nest in one of my tree trunk covers. Are those electric traps any good?
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Jun 4, 2021 01:42
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Rats! We got rats. Been in this house 2 years and this is the first sign of them. Dog started going bananas about the built-in grill and sure enough, there's definitely fresh droppings in there. I wasn't brave enough to stick my head in to see if there were any live ones in there or not. I called out a pest control company because I didn't want to mess around with cleaning out traps. $90 to inspect the house and set and bait 3 traps, and then another $80 to come back out in 2 weeks to re-locate and re-bait the traps. Then a 2 month warranty for free call-outs of we see additional activity. Does this sound reasonable? Is there anything else I can do to deter them or get rid of them? I know I'm dealing with very smart fuckers and that roof rats are a particular issue in Phoenix. Potentially pertinent info - in zone 9b. We have 3 dogs, so them not having access to any poison was my first priority. I also didn't want poisoned rats crawling around out in the open, so it's my understanding that traps being set are snap style so there's bait but the dogs/environment can't get to the poison. Both the front and back yards are kept very clean and the only site of activity currently is under the grill. There are a few city maintained trees (I believe Mesquite) that back up to our property line but the canopy is ~20 feet away from the patio cover and ~30 feet from our actual roof. I have mature containerized herbs and peppers, some in-ground hibiscus and a single young lime tree in the yard that has never produced fruit (~2 feet tall). None of my plants, edible or not, show any kind of disturbance.
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Jun 4, 2021 06:30
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Motronic posted:Bifenthryn is completely inert to plants. Its method of action is a neurotoxin that messes with sodium channel gating. This is from months ago, but it’s still on the page and it’s the lead‐in to something I want to ask. What pesticide/plant combinations are you aware of that don’t get along? I was reading about piperonyl butoxide (not a pesticide itself but a synergist in the fogger I was using). It’s said to cause “certain ornamental plants” to drop their leaves, but I couldn’t find anything more specific. I used it and the plants are fine, but I do wonder if there’s anything I should watch out for in the future.
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Jun 5, 2021 09:09
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Earlier this week I was weeding in one of my gardens and found a wad of grass clippings and little bits of plant that I thought was another loving vole being a little rear end in a top hat which was a huge bummer as I thought I had finally driven them away. Instead I pulled the wad away and found this:  I'm not a monster so I'm not going to disturb the baby rabbits (even though their mother left them right under a rather poisonous Euphorbia nothowlee). It's in a side yard that is pretty closed off which may make it attractive to rabbits and we've had some wandering into the yard lately. I'm wondering if there are any good ways to make it less attractive to them other than either closing it off entirely or having to spray repellant constantly? Last year when I had a lot of vole problems I found those small solar powered ultrasonic vibrating things you poke into the ground to be surprisingly effective at getting them to find someone else to terrorize, but the rabbits clearly aren't bothered by them. I know they make larger ones that are supposed to get rabbits to gently caress off but I don't want to dump a bunch of cash on one if they don't work for poo poo. Anyone have any experience with these or success with any of them specifically?
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Jun 5, 2021 14:03
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