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verbal enema posted:Yeah thank goodness its not Luetin or ABorderPrince who i hope isnt bad cuz he does a lot of good audio reads ABorderPrince eats peas with a knife. And spreads peanut butter on bread with a fork.
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Nov 10, 2020 03:09
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MariusLecter posted:ABorderPrince eats peas with a knife. And spreads peanut butter on bread with a fork. gently caress!!!!
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Nov 10, 2020 03:13
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It strikes me that the games companies that are the best at telling people to gently caress off with terrible worldviews are often the ones that make war or strategy games with actual fascists in them. Ask a developer who's only ever made pulpy fantasy before to do the bare minimum when they step wrong, they do too little too late and expect that to be enough. Look to people designing a game set in the modern day, watch them stumble into some lovely potholes and elevate bigots in an attempt to be modern. But the guys that make games that literally let you play as Hitler? Somehow THOSE guys are the cool ones.
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Nov 10, 2020 03:22
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verbal enema posted:just like regular nazis i hate the space nazis but again the tanks for both make me to hell yeah! incidentally, orks in 40k started off as a satire of germans as the dastardly and barbarous hun: they use stikk grenades (i.e. potato mashers), they sometimes wore stahlhelms when they weren't wearing silly fur horns, their vehicles get suffixed w/ stuff like -wagon to imitate german noun construction (e.g. volks-wagen), they're really obsessed with things being orky (good) and not orky (bad), in the fictional script they invented for orks the symbol for orks/civilization/good was basically a fat swastika, etc, etc, etc it was more like a colonel klink parody of germans tho, designed to poke fun at the sort of hooligan idiot who'd become a skinhead, than a more serious allusion orks have mostly moved on to being regular old comedy hooligans nowadays
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Nov 10, 2020 03:23
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double gently caress!!!
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Nov 10, 2020 03:42
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I both would and would not like to know the ways in which rubric marines are based on something from one of our several world wars.
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Nov 10, 2020 04:05
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Da Ork Boy Biggunz'
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Nov 10, 2020 04:34
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hard counter posted:arch is real bad to be sure and i wouldn't be surprised if he either argued the point ineptly or tried to make a different, dumber conclusion, but i think it's fair to say the imperium is more like a mishmash of various dystopian authoritarian governments blended into a gross soup then amped up into caricature than it is a satire of historical fascism, specifically The Imperium's pretty all over the place, in some ways it can be almost like the Federation since its simply too big for direct authoritarian government to really world; planets can and do have pretty much any kind of government and society from feudal monarchy to corporatocracy to even elected democracy, as long as they preach an acceptable variant of the Imperial Cult and send their psykers to the Black Ships then they usually won't get hosed around with more than necessary. If they're lucky. The Imperial Guard (or Astra Militarium as they're trying to call it now, GW really took losing that dumb lawsuit hard) pretty much triple down on this with nearly every Guard army being based on some historical force, the Valhallans for WW2 Russia, the Death Korps as basically WW1 trench warfare personified, the Catachans as kinda both sides of the Vietnam War, etc.
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Nov 10, 2020 04:46
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Cleretic posted:It strikes me that the games companies that are the best at telling people to gently caress off with terrible worldviews are often the ones that make war or strategy games with actual fascists in them. Because they're the ones who have had to really deal with this poo poo already, and had to think about "okay, our game is probably going to be attractive to Nazi fuckheads, how do we make them go away" from square one for their games to be even remotely palatable.
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Nov 10, 2020 04:54
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WeedlordGoku69 posted:the only Black Dog book I can remember is Charnel Houses of Europe, which is a Wraith sourcebook about the Holocaust, and... it's actually pretty well-regarded, afaik? like, i remember it taking the subject matter dead seriously, not having any hosed up edgy nonsense that wasn't just... reality, and being pretty explicit about "you probably don't want to use any of this in your game unless you really know your players." Charnel Houses of Europe is highly regarded among people who write about games, as it's a great example of how you can use games to approach and discuss difficult subjects, but Wraith was already designed as a game that's intentionally uncomfortable to play even if you don't ask your players to consider the number of vengeful ghosts the Holocaust would have created, so it wasn't necessarily successful at actually getting it's message out to the world. It wasn't well-known and even fewer players had even seen (let alone read) a copy so it was more popularly known as "can you believe there's a Auschwitz setting book? What were they thinking?" until after Old World of Darkness had officially ended. Cleretic posted:It strikes me that the games companies that are the best at telling people to gently caress off with terrible worldviews are often the ones that make war or strategy games with actual fascists in them. IIRC "make sure this person isn't an insane right wing nationalist" is a standard routine step of the Paradox hiring process.
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Nov 10, 2020 05:17
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DreadUnknown posted:GW pulled back super hard on Slannesh being the rapegod, and its more glam rock stuff. It's way better in general imo. I liked the depictions if Slaanesh worship from the Horus Heresy novels, Fulgrim in particular. Slaanesh worship took root on a ship filled with artists of all kinds, after they witnessed the otherworldly sounds and colors of an alien temple to Slaanesh. They were driven mad trying to replicate the beauty of what they saw and heard. The first demonic transformations occurred during a singer's performance as her voice and the instruments became warped and psychically tainted until demons started manifesting through the bodies of everyone in attendance. This also created the first Noise Marines when the attending Marines heard the impossible sounds.
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Nov 10, 2020 05:23
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that reminds me, there was an awful story posted on these forums a whiles back from someone who worked creatively for gw back in the day and they were doing a meet and greet w/the fans one day and they met someone real grody who was part of an irl sex cult and they wanted 'insider tips' on how to make their activities as authentic and as true to slaanesh worship as possible, the gw employee responded by trying to smile and nod his way through one of the most awkward conversations of his life
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Nov 10, 2020 05:52
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Schubalts posted:I liked the depictions if Slaanesh worship from the Horus Heresy novels, Fulgrim in particular. Slaanesh worship took root on a ship filled with artists of all kinds, after they witnessed the otherworldly sounds and colors of an alien temple to Slaanesh. They were driven mad trying to replicate the beauty of what they saw and heard. The first demonic transformations occurred during a singer's performance as her voice and the instruments became warped and psychically tainted until demons started manifesting through the bodies of everyone in attendance. Woah...I did not know about this before now.
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Nov 10, 2020 06:05
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It turns out that taking away the lazy approach to Slaanesh really let the creatives come up with some great ideas. Once they released a mini that's a daemon playing a harp made out of some dude, and they were clear that the dude was a volunteer, I was sold that Slaanesh was gonna be neat moving forwards.
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Nov 10, 2020 06:48
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GW re-released their "space marine playing a guitar that is also a gun" noise marine model because it's the best depiction of Slaanesh and also all of chaos in general and they know they can't top it.
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Nov 10, 2020 08:13
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buddhist nudist posted:GW re-released their "space marine playing a guitar that is also a gun" noise marine model because it's the best depiction of Slaanesh and also all of chaos in general and they know they can't top it.  THIS SILENCE OFFENDS SLAANESH Edit: And here's the original 80s as hell model for comparison 
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Nov 10, 2020 08:15
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hard counter posted:arch is real bad to be sure and i wouldn't be surprised if he either argued the point ineptly or tried to make a different, dumber conclusion, but i think it's fair to say the imperium is more like a mishmash of various dystopian authoritarian governments blended into a gross soup then amped up into caricature than it is a satire of historical fascism, specifically There's a lot of truth in this, but Arch put forth some pretty bad arguments. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0nSZ_L6Wto It's an hour long and I admit that I only watched the first fifteen minutes or so, but in that time he puts forth some pretty weak arguments. He points out how the aesthetics don't match up with historical fascist governments, like how the Imperial insignia is based on the Weimar Republic's. That's fine, but philosophically the Imperium is fascism taken to the extreme. Individuality is subsumed in favor of ultranationalism, xenophobia is a cornerstone of society, and political opposition is forcefully oppressed. Sure, you can't have a form of government entirely analogous to WW2-era Italy and Germany when your state encompasses millions of planets, and there are as been pointed out individual worlds can vary widely in how they're run but the philosophy of the universe and lore always returns to fascism. Arch also tries to say that the Emperor let his son lead his armies and entrusted the running of his empire to an advisor, and what kind of dictator would relinquish power like that? He fails to mention that their positions are contingent on the fact that they are subservient to his wishes. Kevin DuBrow has a new favorite as of 08:36 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 08:33
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The Emperor himself would burn the current Imperium to the loving ground if he was able to. Everything it currently stands for goes against his wishes and teachings, especially the worship of himself as a god. He tried to stamp out religion entirely to weaken the Chaos Gods, and was fully willing to broker peace with alien species whenever possible.
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Nov 10, 2020 09:24
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Yeah, the Emperor was also a really lovely manager and father figure with the Heresy being basically his fault for treating the Primarchs as his own interchangeable property rather than people, let alone the extremely independent, larger-than-life people they grew into. A big part of the Imperium's dysfunction is because all the competing and redundant divisions are always ticking each other off. (funny thing is that there's deliberate division between lots of things like the army and navy, since every time someone consolidates too much more in themselves you get a big civil war like the Age of Apostacy)
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Nov 10, 2020 09:24
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This didn't age poorly or anything, but I don't know where else to put this. My favorite Alex Trebek memory is when he did a cameo on X-Files. Basically he played an Alex Trebek look alike who works for the Men In Black because who the hell is gonna believe you when you tell people Alex Trebek threatened you?
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Nov 10, 2020 10:21
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grittyreboot posted:This didn't age poorly or anything, but I don't know where else to put this. My favorite Alex Trebek memory is when he did a cameo on X-Files. Basically he played an Alex Trebek look alike who works for the Men In Black because who the hell is gonna believe you when you tell people Alex Trebek threatened you? He wasn't a look alike, he was a hypnotic suggestion for the appearance of one of the men in black. e; ACKSHUALLY
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Nov 10, 2020 13:00
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Ghost Leviathan posted:the Catachans as kinda both sides of the Vietnam War, etc. Wait...what? In what way are they *anything* like the Vietnamese?
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Nov 10, 2020 14:49
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I saw a take so bad on AVClub today it borderlines on a bad SMG clone: Clone High, advertised in 2020. quote:Its characters were rooted in the past, but at its core, Clone High was a modern coming-of-age tale. By taking a slate of historical figures—Abraham Lincoln, Joan of Arc, Mahatma Gandhi, Cleopatra, John F. Kennedy—and putting genetically modified versions of them into a high school setting, Clone High used shorthand knowledge of cultural archetypes to riff on the awkwardness inherent in being a teenager. quote:Even though they exhumed their characters from textbooks, Lord and Miller treated the teens populating Clone High like real people with real concerns, instead of endlessly malleable archetypes. The characters had distinct fashions and pop-culture interests—Abe was an of-the-moment emo kid, Joan Of Arc was appropriately goth, and Gandhi was probably a massive Michael Bay fan—and those things often informed the way that characters behaved inside their environments. quote:Throughout the 13-episode season, the main characters in Clone High are often found butting up against the standard teen show dramas. But Lord and Miller put their own spin on them by drawing them out, focusing on subtle evolutions within the protagonists in order to make them relatable. quote:Despite all the time that’s passed since it originally aired, Clone High’s emotional core remains solidly intact in the present day. That’s not to say that it falls outside of standard coming-of-age tales, but the show’s subtle subversion of them feels like a course correction for the give-the-ugly-kid-a-makeover trope that populated ’90s teen comedies—a cliché openly mocked in the episode “Makeover, Makeover, Makeover: The Makeover Episode.” Holy gently caress. This is some industrial grade pomposity. For those who don't know, Clone High was a 2002 satire of syrupy teen shows that littered the WB and Fox like Dawson's Creek, Party of Five, Gilmore Girls, etc. Nearly every scene is hyperactive with punchline after punchline about its melodramatic characters and plots which are never taken very seriously: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr4gZb33l3U Ponce De Leon is killed in one episode by litter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4DCMqbTzD4 It's funny as hell, but I want you to watch these and then review those quotes. Understand that I am not cherry-picking clips. The entire show is always at this exact level: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf5xCxzIGiE And yes I get that this article is just doing a quick intro to get to the meat of recapping Chris Lord and Phil Miller for the brunch and mimosas crowd, so they don't feel stupid about about investigating a silly canceled cartoon in 2020. That's obvious. But like... still. That's some hard swerve from what the show actually was. I think 4th wall breaks and meta jokes have started to poison the groundwater as a defining element of animated comedy.
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Nov 10, 2020 15:02
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AV Club has been really, really stupid for a long time.
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Nov 10, 2020 15:04
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I think Clone High did have a lot of pathos and actually did care about its core characters quite a bit. The most annoying thing about that piece is that they’re lending credence to the idea that the Gandhi portrayal was a serious misstep.
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Nov 10, 2020 15:12
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I think it's very underestimated just how much Clone High was tied to the teen media zeitgeist of 2002. Clone High did have pathos and it didn't treat its characters with contempt, but it also never had a single scene like Rick & Morty, other Bill Lawrence shows, The Simpsons, Bob's Burgers, later Lord/Miller works, or even Family Guy where the gears shifted and the show became genuinely dramatic. "Look at how silly and stupid this is!" was present in every frame. It's a big part of what elevated the series as a spoof, mining the very very fertile ground of teen melodramas. It just did so affectionately. I think there's a really awful tendency to think that incisive mockery and affection are mutually exclusive. Although yeah the hand-wringing over Gandhi and a white woman voicing Cleo is some serious lovely liberal energy too.
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Nov 10, 2020 15:47
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mind the walrus posted:I think it's very underestimated just how much Clone High was tied to the teen media zeitgeist of 2002. The scene where Gandhi is explaining why he missed the iconic scene in American Pie set up as a dramatic learning moment was one of the funniest goddamn things in the entire show.
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Nov 10, 2020 16:44
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Our Gandhi would never do drugs! In an unrelated story he's been missing for three days. e: the entire "Jack Black as a secret shill for Big Raisin telling everyone that smoking raisins gets you high" rock opera episode was really stupid in the best way
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Nov 10, 2020 16:54
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mind the walrus posted:Although yeah the hand-wringing over a white woman voicing Cleo is some serious lovely liberal energy too. Cleopatra was a white woman, though?
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Nov 10, 2020 17:37
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Byzantine posted:Cleopatra was a white woman, though? Greek and inbred as gently caress.
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Nov 10, 2020 18:04
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Inspector Gesicht posted:Greek and inbred as gently caress. Sounds like the British royal family, how much whiter do you want?
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Nov 10, 2020 18:11
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Reminds me of the times when that actor who played Bashir in DS9 was criticized and called rear end in a top hat for saying something like "we ethnically type-casted actors" in an interview and referring himself as "non-white" and because of that was obviously blamed for cultural appropriation of being "African". ...The dude is from Egypt.
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Nov 10, 2020 18:11
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Der Kyhe posted:Reminds me of the times when that actor who played Bashir in DS9 was criticized and called rear end in a top hat for saying something like "we ethnically type-casted actors" in an interview and referring himself as "non-white" and because of that was obviously blamed for cultural appropriation of being "African". Not just that, he's actually related to a PM of Sudan and descended from a dude who famously led a revolt against british colonial rule.
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Nov 10, 2020 18:14
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Kevin DuBrow posted:That's fine, but philosophically the Imperium is fascism taken to the extreme. Individuality is subsumed in favor of ultranationalism, xenophobia is a cornerstone of society, and political opposition is forcefully oppressed. tbf the bundle of: instilling fear of the outsider/hatred of the enemy, propagating fanaticism, and oppressing all non-conformity was neither invented by fascists nor especially perfected by them - it's a superficial similarity you generally see across extremist ideologues whether they're religious, philosophical, cultural or dynastic - fascists would ratchet all those up to the extreme, but so would stalinists, the spanish inquisition, radical colonialists, etc the idea isn't that you could make an argument that the imperium is a satire of fascism, but that you could make a better argument for a satire of a wider range of its other influences i'm not gonna watch it but arch's video seems like absolute dogshit tho since it sounds he's trying to say imperium = good? therefore not fascism! if one of his points is that the emperor was actually benevolent, instead of someone trying to be benevolent but already shooting at his foot from the get go
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Nov 10, 2020 18:16
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Pretty much all of the Imperium's policies are ludicrously short-sighted, wasteful by any metric, and contributing to its own self-destruction.
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Nov 10, 2020 18:20
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Der Kyhe posted:Reminds me of the times when that actor who played Bashir in DS9 was criticized and called rear end in a top hat for saying something like "we ethnically type-casted actors" in an interview and referring himself as "non-white" and because of that was obviously blamed for cultural appropriation of being "African". His birth name is Siddig El Tahir El Fadil El Siddig Abdurrahman Mohammed Ahmed Abdel Karim El Mahdi. So not exactly a surprise that he goes by a stage name.
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Nov 10, 2020 18:39
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Don Gato posted:Come on you have to post it in all its 80s glory. Dude gently caress yes Noise Marines
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Nov 10, 2020 21:36
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Not just that, he's actually related to a PM of Sudan and descended from a dude who famously led a revolt against british colonial rule. He's also Malcolm McDowell's nephew so he's maybe not quite as exotic as the name suggests. I suppose we're lucky he didn't do what another famous mixed-race English actor, Krishna Pandit Bhanji, did and completely white up his name ("Ben Kingsley")
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Nov 10, 2020 21:46
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things that definitely haven't aged well: saying how exotic you think a given person is
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Nov 10, 2020 22:06
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yeah I know this kind of thing comes up when discussing media where white actors are playing characters of other ethnicities but try to keep this not weird
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Nov 10, 2020 23:14
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