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Yeah the mastermind is nasty to deal with because of their capacity to control enemy units while avoiding the same vulnerabilities as generic yuri clones. The higher hp and different armor help it out, forcing Yuri's opponents to invest in two types of counters. The UFO, on the other hand, is annoying if it catches you unawares. Only my failed runs showed its ability, which is to shut down a building it hovers. This ability doesn't prevent it from shooting, either. Yes, they will make it to your power plant(s) and effectively shut down your base, never skip out on AA defenses when playing against Yuri!
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Nov 4, 2020 14:25
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The comedy way to combat masterminds is send the biggest swarm of GIs or Conscripts at it and let it overload on all of them.
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Nov 4, 2020 17:16
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Mind control just seems like an awful gimmick to base a faction around, full stop.
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Nov 4, 2020 17:23
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Cythereal posted:Mind control just seems like an awful gimmick to base a faction around, full stop. Westwood did a surprisingly decent job of it. If Jobbo videos a skirmish using Yuri, you'll see the whole faction fits together quite well around the idea of taking and using other people's stuff in interesting ways. Yuri doesn't just nick people's tanks and turn them around, and only seeing the faction when playing against it in the campaign sells it short a little. Now balance was hard. The degenerate online strategy actually ended up being Grand Cannon rushes, but Boomers and Discs always provoked screams of cheese online.
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Nov 4, 2020 17:43
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I hope if/when EA remasters RA2 they actually stick with it and make it into something similar to what the resurrected AOE2 has become. RA2 is both modern and complex enough that there's real potential for its multiplayer to kick off in a way the older game remasters don't really have.
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Nov 4, 2020 19:49
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Loxbourne posted:Westwood did a surprisingly decent job of it. If Jobbo videos a skirmish using Yuri, you'll see the whole faction fits together quite well around the idea of taking and using other people's stuff in interesting ways. Yuri doesn't just nick people's tanks and turn them around, and only seeing the faction when playing against it in the campaign sells it short a little. I think they more meant that yuri is not fun to play against because your stuff getting yoinked all the time is more frustrating than having it go boom.
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Nov 4, 2020 22:47
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The problem with mind control in this game is that if you're playing a faction that doesn't have a long-range way to kill a Yuri ( ) then it's basically an insta-kill. Either you ignore the unit that was mind controlled and take way more damage than the unit is worth freeing it or you kill the unit and have another one stolen from you as soon as it's dead. The MVP for me on this mission has always been Mirage Tanks; since you're defending a fixed location with limited entry points you can park a pack of them on each bridge and they'll kill anything Yuri sends your way long before it finishes crossing.
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Nov 4, 2020 23:35
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FoolyCharged posted:I think they more meant that yuri is not fun to play against because your stuff getting yoinked all the time is more frustrating than having it go boom. Yeah, as we'll see the Soviet options for dealing with Yuri are painfully limited. The Soviets get a bit shafted in YR.
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Nov 5, 2020 00:13
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Honestly the most annoying thing to me about Yuri's forces isn't the mind control, it's the ability of the gattling tank to kill your garrisoned buildings from outside their range. They are far from the only units that can do that, but they *are* a basic unit type unlike everyone else's equivalent, and a pretty flexible and powerful one at that. It basically means your usual defences are just not reliable any more, which means you have to pay attention, instead of set up a garrison and assume that vector is relatively safe.
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Nov 5, 2020 00:23
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I had a friend who made world #2 in ranked RA2 vanilla MP back in 2000, and he said yuri is crazily overpowered in the hands of a half-decent human player and above. Boomer subs alone made sea maps a death sentence for non Yuri.
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Nov 5, 2020 01:23
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The amount of mind control Yuri gets seems to be aimed specifically at countering the typical engineer rushes and tank rushes. Of course robot tanks exist but that almost feels like a "we went too far" concession.
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Nov 5, 2020 03:29
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It's a minor point, but I wish there's been a little monument somewhere near the Houses of Parliament to commemorate where that deactivated Soviet nuclear missile landed all the way back in RA1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qusvou01eWY
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Nov 5, 2020 05:36
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Fangz posted:Honestly the most annoying thing to me about Yuri's forces isn't the mind control, it's the ability of the gattling tank to kill your garrisoned buildings from outside their range. They are far from the only units that can do that, but they *are* a basic unit type unlike everyone else's equivalent, and a pretty flexible and powerful one at that. It basically means your usual defences are just not reliable any more, which means you have to pay attention, instead of set up a garrison and assume that vector is relatively safe. The Reds get a thing that I felt made up for their shortcomings, in a way that was both complete overkill and horribly inadequate.
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Nov 5, 2020 10:41
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Honestly I think we haven't even seen the main reason Yuri is broken yet.
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Nov 5, 2020 19:27
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Allied X07: Operation: Brain Dead https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jxjozubo3A Operation: Brain Dead  Yuri has retreated to the Antarctic, with both the Allies and the Soviets hot on his heels. It's time to end this once and for all!   Somewhere on the western portion of Antarctica.  Location: Antarctica Objective: Destroy Yuri's forces once and for all! Briefing: It's almost over, Commander. Yuri's plot lies in ruins. However, he still has one last Psychic Dominator located somewhere in his stronghold in Antarctica. Bring the abandoned Soviet Base on Tierra del Fuego back online and build a radar dish so that we can pinpoint Yuri's exact location. Then, with the combined might of Allied and Soviet forces, put an end to Yuri's plans once and for all. Author's note: I like the setup to this mission, though I feel like the execution could've been a little better? Also rather unfortunate that you're technically punished if you build any ground units at the Soviet base.   Name: Lt. Eva Aliases: None Affiliation: Allies Occupation: Tactical and Communications officer for the Commander Voiced/Played by: Athena Massey Lt. Eva is the Commander's tactics and communications officer, providing a vital supporting role in the Commander's control of his forces, and the battlefield. Almost resigns over the incident with Yuri that revealed the location of the world leaders in London.  Name: Ben Carville Aliases: General Thorn Affiliation: Allies Occupation: Leading General of the US Forces. [UNDECEASED] Voiced/Played by: Barry Corbin Top military official for the United States of America's armed forces. Reports directly to the president. Enjoys antagonizing Tanya. Was temporarily subverted by the Soviet Union due to mind control weapons. Impressed by the Commander's ability to befriend Tanya. Killed before he could transfer to Europe when a suicide bomber infiltrated his HQ. Casually drops one of the best lines of all time related to time travel.  N/A Aftermath: Faster than Par Time: "The whole world now knows your true brilliance as a commander. Your image is appearing on stamps in every nation across the globe, and a worldwide holiday has been declared in your honor." Slower than Par Time: "The world will never know just how close it came to complete destruction. Let's hope we got every last one of Yuri's clones."  SPOILERS BELOW  Name: Yuri Aliases: None Affiliation: Soviet Occupation: Premier to the Glorious Soviet Union Voiced/Played by: Udo Kier Aide/Confidant to the Premier of the Soviet Union. May not be on the up-and-up, dislikes Gen. Vladimir. Knows the meaning of "Soviet Irony." Do not tr~urk! Glorious Yuri is friend to all! Personal friend of Iosef Stalin. Traitor to the Motherland! Survived the war and has developed mind control devices that can control the minds of citizens over entire continents. Uses GOP scare tactics to convince weak-minded individuals to submit to an evil dictator. Captured in Antarctica after the defeat of his forces. Reduced to watching Ren & Stimpy on repeat for the next 4 decades. Unknown Soldiers:   Not sure who these two are exactly, unfortunately.  Name: Ben Carville Aliases: General Thorn Affiliation: Allies Occupation: Leading General of the US Forces. [UNDECEASED] Voiced/Played by: Barry Corbin Top military official for the United States of America's armed forces. Reports directly to the president. Enjoys antagonizing Tanya. Was temporarily subverted by the Soviet Union due to mind control weapons. Impressed by the Commander's ability to befriend Tanya. Killed before he could transfer to Europe when a suicide bomber infiltrated his HQ. Casually drops one of the best lines of all time related to time travel. Popularizes the term "HOGWASH!" as a rallying cry against Yuri's forces.  Name: Lt. Eva Aliases: None Affiliation: Allies Occupation: Tactical and Communications officer for the Commander Voiced/Played by: Athena Massey Lt. Eva is the Commander's tactics and communications officer, providing a vital supporting role in the Commander's control of his forces, and the battlefield. Almost resigns over the incident with Yuri that revealed the location of the world leaders in London. Vies for the Commander's attention with Agent Tanya.  Name: Dr. Einstein Aliases: None Affiliation: Allies Occupation: Scientist and Inventor Voiced/Played by: Larry Gelman Einstein is still alive, and has added the Prism Tower technology to his long list of inventions alongside the Chronosphere of the past. Instrumental in develop technologies to defeat both the Soviets and Yuri's forces.  Name: President Dugan Aliases: None Affiliation: Allies Occupation: President of the United States of America Voiced/Played by: Ray Wise President of the United States of America. Helped install Premier Romanov in Soviet Russia. Defected to the Reds. Rehabilitated after the destruction of the Psychic Beacon in Washington D.C. Is willing to authorize lethal force in urban areas... provided you don't harm any of his constituents. Managed to evade capture and escaped to Canada. Tried to bargain with Yuri in order to stop him from taking over the world. Confronts his old friend, whom he thought was deceased, at the merger of two separate timelines.  Name: Tanya Aliases: Widowmaker Affiliation: Hired Gun Occupation: Special Agent / International Gun For Hire Voiced/Played by: Kari Wuhrer Agent Tanya is a renowned mercenary who plays by her own rules. It has been suggested that the name "Tanya" may be a codename, similar to Agent 007. Responded to the crisis and helped recapture the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, after having dealt with the Soviet invasion in New York. Sent to Poland to destroy the forward Soviet nukes used to deter European involvement in the ongoing Third World War. Sometimes uses an AK-47, sans top cover, as her primary weapon. Vital in several Allied operations of the war, and personally captured Premier Romanov in his HQ. Vies for the Commander's attention with Lt. Eva.
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Nov 11, 2020 02:06
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I can't believe Yuri is dead.
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Nov 11, 2020 02:12
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Nov 11, 2020 03:41
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I know this series has a pretty tenuous relationship with geography, but this mission has to take the cake. It's 1000 km from the tip of south America to Antarctica, and yet in this mission that's like one screen length.
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Nov 11, 2020 03:54
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mr_stibbons posted:I know this series has a pretty tenuous relationship with geography, but this mission has to take the cake. It's 1000 km from the tip of south America to Antarctica, and yet in this mission that's like one screen length. Einstein also solved global warming in this timeline
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Nov 11, 2020 04:17
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The Allied campaign falters a little (I suspect it's where any cuts were made), but manages a decent finish. Yuri's AI is a bit more "player-esque" in terms of tricks like building gun turrets right next to captured buildings. He gives you a tough fight even on normal. The Allies have an easy solution to the Soviet base having no access to the water - just Chrono across batches of units left behind! I used it as a stash for powerplants, since the Yuri AI tends to aim the Dominator at clusters of units rather than structures (despite the structure damage really being the power of a Dominator; few players leave nine units in a nice 3x3 square with a Dominator out and ticking). Also, Eva and Tanya messing with the timeline just to get you on a date is hilarious.
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Nov 11, 2020 13:08
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The Allied War Factory can also build Kirovs, if you made it your primary.
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Nov 11, 2020 14:10
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I have to admit the superweapons, especially in the singleplayer maps where the AI starts with them, have always been my least favourite part of the C&C games. In the player's hands, once you have them it tends to mean the mission is effectively over as you can now just quietly blap away enemy base chunks without even risking an assault at any point. In the enemy's hands, they're really just a countdown timer to losing a bunch of poo poo. There isn't really anything clever you can do to counter it or take advantage of it. I really just never found it particularly interesting as a mechanic.
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Nov 11, 2020 14:16
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PurpleXVI posted:I have to admit the superweapons, especially in the singleplayer maps where the AI starts with them, have always been my least favourite part of the C&C games.
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Nov 11, 2020 15:26
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They're here to break stalemates in multiplayer and as nice set pieces for the campaign, I think was the reasoning to keep them in.
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Nov 11, 2020 16:15
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I like superweapons when they're best used on armies. Free base-wrecking is a really annoying idea (especially when your buildings have to be clustered together by design) but there is a need for a means of opening cracks in the enemy walls and defensive setups. There are games that do it fairly well and hopefully we will see some of them eventually. Poil posted:Here have a missile (or two) every few minutes and if it hits your construction yard too early to replace it you have to restart lol.
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Nov 11, 2020 16:50
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I think WW themselves went on the record to say superweapons are in the game to crack unbreakable defence lines in multiplayer. It also fits the B-movie tone. The setting fiction needs nukes to make the fantasy Soviet Union hit all their cliches, and then the Allies and Yuri need one for game balance. Red Alert 2 has unusually strong superweapons for the RTS genre, so the temptation is always there to aim them straight at the enemy base. They're not the strongest superweapons in the series as a whole, but it is easy to fall into a frustrating game design fail-state where your opponent uses them to kill your war factory precisely every five minutes. It's worth noting C&C1 deliberately toned down the nuke in MP for this reason - smashing an enemy base with one shot in a SP setpiece can be fun! Less so to have your base smashed by your opponent in a MP match. More can be said on this further down the timeline, when we will encounter superweapons that are straight-up game enders.
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Nov 11, 2020 17:43
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I really, really, really like the Chronosphere. It's just so robust, so multipurpose.
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Nov 11, 2020 17:54
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anilEhilated posted:To be fair conyards cannot be destroyed by one superweapon since at least CnC1. That's why everyone hits factories. 9 Crazy Ivan IFVs Chrono'd into an enemy base will destroy any building in the game and then some and there's nothing the enemy can do about it.
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Nov 11, 2020 18:16
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ThingOne posted:9 Crazy Ivan IFVs Chrono'd into an enemy base will destroy any building in the game and then some and there's nothing the enemy can do about it. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Nov 11, 2020 |
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Nov 11, 2020 18:29
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I was mostly thinking about single player. It's actually a really useful combination on this mission for taking out the Dominator. Since one of them going off will set off the rest it doesn't matter if most of them get mind-controlled.
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Nov 11, 2020 18:48
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oh god you built a radar immediately you absolute madman Overall this is probably the most cheeseable mission in the whole campaign. You can clear the seas and get a decent bank of money before building a radar, and once the allied MCV warps in there's not even a need to set up there - you can build all the allied buildings up north as well (just get enough tech to build another allied MCV). I think Yuri eventually start building UFOs if you do this, but those get stopped by a single Aegis cruiser. At that point you're free to rain down superweapons with impunity, and maybe add a group of teleported and invulnerable units to speed things along. Of course, this takes forever, but you're under zero threat at any point. And we finally get a look at the Genetic Mutator, which is completely worthless. Seriously. Brutes are underwhelming units in the first place, and it gets hard countered by simply not building infantry - something you're not really doing at this point anyway. The Psychic Dominator is an actual threat, but easily distracted by leaving a cluster of Flak Tracks or similar in the middle of nowhere.
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Nov 11, 2020 19:08
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Nostalgamus posted:And we finally get a look at the Genetic Mutator, which is completely worthless. It's a lot funnier in multiplayer against another Yuri, though. All those ore slaves turning, or losing all the yuri clones, etc
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Nov 11, 2020 19:23
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I wonder if going to Defcon 2 is standard whenever Carville shows up somewhere.
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Nov 11, 2020 21:14
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Akratic Method posted:All those ore slaves turning, And then you remember the Grinder. Works on your own (renewable) slaves, too!
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Nov 11, 2020 21:18
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So was Lt. Eva about to resign without letting anyone know where Yuri was hiding out?!?
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Nov 11, 2020 21:42
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Apparently training a Yuri initiate and turning into a brute with the genetic mutator and sending it into a grinder makes you money. Of course you probably want a lot of them.Hank Morgan posted:So was Lt. Eva about to resign without letting anyone know where Yuri was hiding out?!?
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Nov 11, 2020 22:13
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Poil posted:Apparently training a Yuri initiate and turning into a brute with the genetic mutator and sending it into a grinder makes you money. Of course you probably want a lot of them. Do it to your miner slaves for free cash, iirc.
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Nov 11, 2020 22:21
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PurpleXVI posted:I have to admit the superweapons, especially in the singleplayer maps where the AI starts with them, have always been my least favourite part of the C&C games. My counter against them every time I play this mission is that since the Dominator (the only one you really have to be worried about so long as you don't cluster infantry together) is on a 20 min timer, you can rush a Chornosphere as allies, and teleport spies in IFV's close enough to reset it's timer as a way of avoiding getting blasted by it.
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Nov 11, 2020 22:42
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You can also bait it with a group of regular crap tanks. Same with the mutator and some garbage infantry. Not very nice obviously.
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Nov 11, 2020 22:52
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Hank Morgan posted:So was Lt. Eva about to resign without letting anyone know where Yuri was hiding out?!? I think the implication was that she didn't actually have that information at the start of the briefing and Carville's pep talk made her redouble her efforts then bing bang boom we now know where Yuri is
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Nov 12, 2020 01:54
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