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A deathwatch team that's firing on all cylinders is terrifying though. They have so much Space Marine Bullshit on their side that they can just blow through hundreds of opponents without breaking a sweat.
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Nov 11, 2020 07:34
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Shame there are billions of them. But yeah, our team regularly did stuff like 'four platoons of infantry, 5 armored vehicles, a main battle tank killed with a frag grenade (the hatch happened to be open at the time), and six battlesuits' and there were only three of us and we weren't hyper-optimized. One of my issues with DW and BC is that the numbers kind of stop mattering much. They're all so high, and 40kRP handles the gradations of equipment very poorly. DW could probably save some time by replacing every combat encounter with "The Marines Win, But-" and not change much about the game. E: Which when I think about it is what Nice Marines did, isn't it. You automatically win at any combat you get into. Getting into combat may be unwise. Trying to understand love may level a city block.
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Nov 11, 2020 07:40
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Hunt11 posted:It isn't as hosed up as the breeding factory or whatever you call it but it was still extremely stupid, offensive, and makes no sense compared to everything else in the setting regarding the Grey Knights. Hate to correct you on this, but it wasn't specifically virgin blood. It's that Grey Knights jumped in to rescue a convenant besieged by daemons and saw that the Sisters were quite resistant to the demon taint/corruption whatever. So, ignoring the fact that SoB are FAITH ALL DAY ALL NIGHT and strong faith does shield against daemons, and that Grey Knights are as uncorruptable as Space Marines can get, they killed the Sisters to use their blood on their armor for protection. See, it's still very stupid, but in a different way.
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Nov 11, 2020 08:54
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Weird thing is that the Imperium is in theory egalitarian, at least within the accepted spectrum of humanity. There's a fair few female Inquisitors with models and the fluff supposedly has women Guard with no one batting an eye.
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Nov 11, 2020 10:14
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I think the fundamental problem with all 40k fiction is that the Imperium cannot work and clearly by the text isn't supposed to work. It is supposed to be truly inevitably doomed to collapse, but the writers have fallen in love with it too much to let their protagonists die/lose.
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Nov 11, 2020 10:19
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Don't overthink the 40k setting, you'll just be missing out on some quality XCOM meets Paranoia on a background of heavy metal albums. If you gather up some nerds who flow with the MST3K rule it can be a lot of fun.
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Nov 11, 2020 10:30
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I have plenty of fun, it's just that when I run 40k RPGs with my friends it's usually a lot more Brazil, Catch 22, or old Judge Dredd.
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Nov 11, 2020 11:26
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All of which is great and infinitely better than whatever GW's hacks have grimanddark'ed this week.
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Nov 11, 2020 11:41
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40k's turn wasn't exactly isolated mind, it seems pretty in line with the 00s and early 10s thing where every piece of entertainment had to take itself deadly, drearily seriously, especially when it was already compounded of cliches upon cliches.
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Nov 11, 2020 11:44
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Cannibal Smiley posted:I think that they also did that in the Ultramarines novels - the third in the trilogy? But they were being used to incubate Chaos Space Marines. It happened twice. Ghost Leviathan posted:There's a fair few female Inquisitors with models and the fluff supposedly has women Guard with no one batting an eye. Almost none of whom get models or play any role in the story. And the books say women regiments are vanishingly rare and there's only been one Lady General in the Imperium's entire history. Get hosed, GW. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 13:36 on Nov 11, 2020 |
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Nov 11, 2020 13:31
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Everyone posted:There is considerable rational reason to be afraid of (or at least concerned by) someone who can read your mind or burn your bones to ash to teleport you to the loving Moon sans a space suit. And I still remember people being indignant when I said that the 3rd Xmen movie is a terrible metaphor about homosexuality. Yes, the director might mean it to be a metaphor, but it doesn't mean it's a good metaphor. Oh, and even Spoony used to say all Force users or none in an SW game, and he's the "Jumping Wizards" DM. Omnicrom posted:Meanwhile, the nut job who constantly goes around with a gun and does everything in their power to remain armed at all times is almost pathetically stock and frustratingly ordinary in 2020 America. I always read the alternate version of the Fulminaturge as something created specifically as a compromise because the central paradox of the school is less apparent in the always armed version. Still, I suppose if this is a one-shot that version of the Fulminaturge probably does work better. I was having to say that this version of Fulminaturgy doesn't seem to have drawbacks. My taboo is to go without a weapon and I get charges for always having a weapon? Oh, and I get the Good Charge by just carrying the gun around hidden the whole day? The one with the "no shooting" at least makes sense in the "This is a game about gutter hobo wizards, not a White Wolf muderfest" way: your lads aren't meant to be shooting people on the reg anyways, and if the mere presence of the gun wasn't enough to ward away evil, then it failed (and not, as goon said, you're awerse to shooting). A gun as a totem gives you the illusion that you have power and control in this life, like the one article I can't find that was just about an unemployed dude who was desperately clinging to his guns (maybe even open carry). JcDent fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Nov 11, 2020 |
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Nov 11, 2020 13:38
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Cythereal posted:And the books say women regiments are very common and there's many accomplished Lady Generals in the Imperium.
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Nov 11, 2020 13:39
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Just throwing this out there, but is it possible that 40K "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war but also a good bit a rape and murder" is one of those bad games that we should not try to fix?
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Nov 11, 2020 13:52
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The Imperium being sexist shitheads would be okay, if all the other factions posed an alternative. After all they are the fascist theocracy, you know the bad guys. In theory we have more gender equal tau, but only one lady gets a name and model. The orks are asexual canonically but heavily male coded. Chaos is almost all dudes for no reason at all. Etc etc.
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Nov 11, 2020 13:53
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Terrible Opinions posted:I'm sure it can be done well, but it just seems weird that so much of the media is focused on a group of guys who are all supposed to think the same. They're not supposed to think the same You start running into the issues because Black Library and GW has many more bad writers and they have good, and even good writers have bad poo poo foisted upon them. Dan Abnett wrote the first book of Beast probably to lure the fans in, the rest were written by like 4 guys. God, I read the descriptions of a few while looking it up and now I'm even angrier.
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Nov 11, 2020 13:59
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Night10194 posted:E: Which when I think about it is what Nice Marines did, isn't it. You automatically win at any combat you get into. Getting into combat may be unwise. Trying to understand love may level a city block. I too am coming around to the idea that Space Marines are so good, you shouldn't even need to count individual kills, because those don't matter. Yes, a Space Marine will kill anyone in a 1v1 fight. Make regular combat like Nice Marines or 3:16 Carnage Among The Stars. Work towards making the Marine players try to leverage their expertise, super human reflexes, and overwhelming tech to offset their lack of numbers or heavy support. Make them utilize all the implants, suit systems, everything to minimize enemy strength, outmaneuver them, get into their decision loop, gain the initiative, and crush them utterly. Unfortunately, me included, only three guys are interested in Space Marines: Super Special Forces Soldiers That Are Also Space Knights, and everyone else just defaults to "big guy pew pew*." Esp. that hack Graham McNeil, gently caress him, I'm never reading his books again. *to be fair, basically everyone doing games and pop culture thinks that the only thing "special" about "special forces" is that they have 5 HP instead of 10 and 15 attack instead of 5, with no regard paid to any other capabilities.
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Nov 11, 2020 14:08
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Everyone posted:Just throwing this out there, but is it possible that 40K "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war but also a good bit a rape and murder" is one of those bad games that we should not try to fix? If that's how you feel you don't have to, I'm perfectly happy to just cut out anything that's bad. there's a shitload of actually good material, easily enough to make several quite dissimilar games with different moods.
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Nov 11, 2020 14:10
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JcDent posted:They're not supposed to think the same
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Nov 11, 2020 14:10
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oriongates posted:I also note the distinction between "fire a gun" and "shoot a human being". Warning shots, or killing someone's dog, doesn't count I guess.
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Nov 11, 2020 14:11
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If I ever run a Deathwatch game again I'm just going to use the BASH rpg. You're basically playing superheroes anyway, it would be trivially easy to reskin deathwatch characters as them. Also, which was the scenario with the old and bored Dreadnought. Sounds fun, I might track it down.
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Nov 11, 2020 14:26
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Isn't "good super hero game" almost as tall an order as "good 40K game?"
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Nov 11, 2020 14:37
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Deptfordx posted:If I ever run a Deathwatch game again I'm just going to use the BASH rpg. Rising Tempest. Brother Szobchak is introduced on page 79. They did a great piece of art for him, too.
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Nov 11, 2020 14:39
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By popular demand posted:If that's how you feel you don't have to, I'm perfectly happy to just cut out anything that's bad. Okay. I don't play it but I've been reading a bunch of posts and so far the game seems to have gone from: "LOL Satire. The religious fanatic space fascists are the good guys!" to "The religious fanatic space fascists are the good guys who sometimes murder nuns because hard men hard decisions." I mean, maybe it's not gently caress your fellow party members for the amusement of mirror-people bad, but it still seems kind of bad.
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Nov 11, 2020 15:06
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JcDent posted:Isn't "good super hero game" almost as tall an order as "good 40K game?" Double Cross is really fun.
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Nov 11, 2020 15:21
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JcDent posted:Isn't "good super hero game" almost as tall an order as "good 40K game?" Sentinel Comics is great. So is the aforementioned Double Cross, where you have to really work at making a character be bad at things.
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Nov 11, 2020 16:16
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Terrible Opinions posted:I have plenty of fun, it's just that when I run 40k RPGs with my friends it's usually a lot more Brazil, Catch 22, or old Judge Dredd. Anyone into the street-level Brazil/Catch 22/Judge Dredd part of 40k should check out the new Warhammer: Crime series. It's basically cyberpunk noir in a huge bureaucratic hive city where most citizens have only a vague understanding of the wider Imperium. I've only read Bloodlines so far, but it was way better than it had any right to be. SimonChris fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Nov 11, 2020 |
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Nov 11, 2020 16:19
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Everyone posted:Okay. I don't play it but I've been reading a bunch of posts and so far the game seems to have gone from: For better or worse 40K is not a singular defined thing, it's a range that people base games on (think the very different eras of comic books) Just here on these forums I saw extremely silly Ork campaigns, psychological Chaos attempts and Imperial Guard based meat grinder games.
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Nov 11, 2020 17:25
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By popular demand posted:For better or worse 40K is not a singular defined thing, it's a range that people base games on (think the very different eras of comic books) That's what you guys are doing with it. Presumably you could make various heavy modifications to turn the Mirror-people game into something that wasn't vile and gross. But the writer/publisher designed it to be vile and gross and a bad game. And from what I can tell from what others have posted here, that's also the direction that the publishers of 40K are going. I mean, I'm the guy who provoked this thread's name-change to "Please Don't Try to Fix Bad Games." 40K seems to walk, swim and quack like a bad game.
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Nov 11, 2020 17:35
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Everyone posted:That's what you guys are doing with it. Presumably you could make various heavy modifications to turn the Mirror-people game into something that wasn't vile and gross. But the writer/publisher designed it to be vile and gross and a bad game. And from what I can tell from what others have posted here, that's also the direction that the publishers of 40K are going. The major difference is Mirror game stripped of the offensive bits leaves basically nothing. If you read the Shadowrun moaning earlier you know that people are willing to strip all the mechanics and rebuild a game that has an engrossing campaign setting. when you encounter Mirror game all you get to take with you is that cool golem. E: It's the old Linux debate: if you just don't have the time and will to basically heavily customize the product you may want to skip it. in this analogy Mirror game is that bizarre Temple-OS thing, only poo poo. By popular demand fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Nov 11, 2020 |
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Nov 11, 2020 17:55
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Everyone posted:That's what you guys are doing with it. Presumably you could make various heavy modifications to turn the Mirror-people game into something that wasn't vile and gross. But the writer/publisher designed it to be vile and gross and a bad game. And from what I can tell from what others have posted here, that's also the direction that the publishers of 40K are going. 40K is deeply embedded in the standard western nerd adolescence. Games Workshop had pretty much total dominance of the gaming market in the UK for a solid decade or more, and is still the public face of minis gaming in the US and UK. People defend it so hard because they're defending stuff they enjoyed as teenagers, when either 40K was written with a sillier tone or they just didn't notice that the grimdark was deliberate crypto-fascism. The reality is that you are entirely correct, most of the positive takes on 40K are things that nerds make up themselves to soften the setting. EDIT: This even includes the Fantasy Flight RPGs, honestly. They do this because they like the iconography and some of the concepts, and still want to play with it without feeling uncomfortable. There is nothing wrong with doing that, but it sure as heck isn't canon as GW writes it. GW have gotten better in recent years, and with time they might get to a point where they can legitimately say they have made the setting ironic or "it's apparent that the Imperium aren't the good guys". But for now, that's basically apologism because Games Workshop have seen their setting material used at one too many Stormfront rallies and they and their fanbase are shifting uncomfortably in their seats. You will find you hit a brick wall with 40K where delving further means people start having to be introspective about what they liked about the setting and why they like(d) it, and then they will turn on you very hard for making them question themselves. Loxbourne fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Nov 11, 2020 |
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Nov 11, 2020 18:16
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And if you need bolters and power armor and stuff, hell, just make up your own setting with less fascism. You were probably doing that anyway in 40k, even if you didn't notice.
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Nov 11, 2020 18:21
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Corbyn would have nationalised GW, denazified the setting, and brought back epic but with more trains.
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Nov 11, 2020 18:21
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The squat land train is loving lorry bullshit and does not count.
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Nov 11, 2020 18:21
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Everyone posted:I mean, I'm the guy who provoked this thread's name-change to "Please Don't Try to Fix Bad Games." 
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Nov 11, 2020 18:36
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I'll share a secret with you: I'm only into roleplay games for fiddling with the systems, I'm mature enough to admit that.
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Nov 11, 2020 18:39
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There's a difference between fixing the system and fixing the racism and sexism in the lore.
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Nov 11, 2020 18:55
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Speleothing posted:There's a difference between fixing the system and fixing the racism and sexism in the lore. Very much this. I mean, hell, just play Star Wars, where the default assumption is that your characters are fighting against a cartoonishly evil fascist kleptocracy instead of as part of one.
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Nov 11, 2020 19:36
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There's no bright dividing line, but I'm pretty comfortable with the difference between people grappling with a long-running franchise's problematic elements, as opposed to trying to think of ways to make a one-off rape game's gross sex poo poo a little more subtle so that it can still be about coerced sex but somehow not as bad.
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Nov 11, 2020 20:20
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That Old Tree posted:There's no bright dividing line, but I'm pretty comfortable with the difference between people grappling with a long-running franchise's problematic elements, as opposed to trying to think of ways to make a one-off rape game's gross sex poo poo a little more subtle so that it can still be about coerced sex but somehow not as bad. Absolutely this.
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Nov 11, 2020 21:28
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JcDent posted:Isn't "good super hero game" almost as tall an order as "good 40K game?" Only if by "good super hero game" you mean "a single, non-story, game that can simultaneously handle every type of superhero story ever".
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Nov 11, 2020 21:41
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