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I can think of a couple of major differences a hypothetical non-terrible president would have made: -Would have put a nonpartisan expert in charge instead of his idiot son-in-law -Would not have sorted states into allies and enemies and used that to direct flows of supplies -Would not have had the feds seize statebound PPE shipments -Would not have declared that the federal government was a 51st state that deserved its own allocation of PPE -Would not have refused to personally perform responsible behavior in public to set an example -Would not have gotten into slapfights with the CDC, or other countries' equivalents, or related NGOs There would likely still be issues at the state level or in the state-federal cooperation but not on the level of the aggressively malicious stupidity we got.
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Nov 16, 2020 16:42
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I’m aspiring to become a great “historian” (whatever those citation marks means) and I will do my damndest to ensure that there is no doubt in the historical record that Trump led the worst pandemic response imaginable.
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Nov 16, 2020 16:44
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haveblue posted:I can think of a couple of major differences a hypothetical non-terrible president would have made: Biden sucks but I'm at least confident he would not have done any of those things.
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Nov 16, 2020 16:44
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Nix Panicus posted:After seeing the response from such Democratic luminaries as Cuomo, DeBlasio, and Newsom, as well as the abject failures of several democrat stronghold/trifecta states, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Trump's response to corona wasn't uniquely terrible, and likely any president would have hosed up as badly just as a function of how much America sucks. Just to be clear, you're talking about the guy who abused federal resources to steal PPE from states, the guy who refused to wear a mask for 4 months, the guy who deliberately decided not to do anything about the virus because it was only hurting blue states .
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Nov 16, 2020 16:45
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Trump loving stole PPE shipments. And then resold them...
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Nov 16, 2020 16:46
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:Oh good, more slapfights.  IK Note For the love of god, if you're only posting to tell other posters that they are dumb or to dog pile in a slapfight, you're going to get probed. Either engage with the point/post being made or don't bother posting.
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Nov 16, 2020 16:46
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haveblue posted:I can think of a couple of major differences a hypothetical non-terrible president would have made: Also the USPS plan to mail masks to every household that Trump actively blocked https://www.postal-reporter.com/blo...an%20Oversight.
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Nov 16, 2020 16:46
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Also the USPS plan to mail masks to every household that Trump actively blocked It’s such a hilarious no-brainer, too. I never thought I’d see Whistlin’-Past-The-Graveyard as national policy but, welp
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Nov 16, 2020 16:48
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It's becoming more and more clear that the Republican strategy is to hamstring this administration out of the gate which is disappointing because it means people are going to die if we don't have a good transition for the vaccine program.
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Nov 16, 2020 16:49
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LeeMajors posted:I never thought I’d see Whistlin’-Past-The-Graveyard as national policy but, welp Did you not see Biden's absolute refusal to support Medicare For All during this whole dog and pony show we call an election cycle? e: I'd like to ask all of the folks intoning that Hillary would've squashed the pandemic how they think spurned MAGA chuds, angry off of having the 2016 election "stolen" from them would have reacted to Hillary telling them to social distance, wear a mask, and skip the holidays this year? A Democrat administration can make calls for public action, but ultimately it's up to the citizenry and I don't see the 40-whatever% of the country's proud chuds playing any nicer under Hillary. Lib and let die fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Nov 16, 2020 |
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Nov 16, 2020 16:50
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haveblue posted:I can think of a couple of major differences a hypothetical non-terrible president would have made: - Would not have flamed ethnic violence against region of origin - Would not have given a definite OPEN BY date - Would not have turned info briefings into the Pay Attention to Me show - Would not have let states twist in the wind, creating a patchwork of responses and guidelines ...
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Nov 16, 2020 16:50
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Slowpoke! posted:I’m not willing to say Trump had better foreign policy than Obama, and no amount of crying about Libya, Yemen, and drone strikes will change my mind. There's also enabling a fascist in Brazil, who denied the existence of COVID even after he caught it, as well as legitimizing the military coup in Honduras which is still killing protestors to this day. And the fact that we're extremely likely to be responsible for training and arming ISIS: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/isis-weapons-arsenal-included-some-purchased-u-s-government-n829201 On top of starting the sanctioning of Venezuela and Iran in the first place. Also, and this is pure conspiracy on my part & the above is bad enough, but the beats of the Bolivia coup attempt match up with Honduras to an extent that is extremely concerning. At best it means Trump's natsecs are plagiarists, at worst we might have had a greater hand in the Honduras coup than we currently know. quote:Trump had a terrible foreign policy and the fact that he didn’t start a new war doesn’t mean he didn’t try. He literally assassinated a top Iranian military leader while he was with one of our allies, and if it wasn’t for Iran shooting down their own civilian airplane and having a massive COVID outbreak, things might have turned out differently. Multiple presidents can have bad foreign policy! Obama being awful on foreign policy doesnt mean Trump is good on foreign policy! That Obama's competent imperialism was horrific does not mean Trump's incompetent imperialism was benevolent!
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Nov 16, 2020 16:52
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The theoretical D in charge of the pandemic response would have been Hillary, mind.
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Nov 16, 2020 16:52
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ewiley posted:Eagerly awaiting President Jianyu, may we all be 7’s on the scale of freshness. If only more Florida Men were like Jason
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Nov 16, 2020 16:53
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-would not have left the WHO (Biden can undo this before it goes into effect in July) -Would not have nearly killed a bunch of his White House people, multiple times, by having super spreader events there (if those people have been helping with the pandemic, instead of being evil morons, this would've been a bad thing instead of a good thing) -Would not have directly spread coronavirus by holding mass rallies -Refused to personally report accurate testing that may or may not have been done himself and then put his direct opponent in danger during a debate, still very possibly in purpose to murder the opposition Pick fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Nov 16, 2020 |
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Nov 16, 2020 16:54
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trump is uniquely terrible on COVID. we really should be more comfortable with pointing that out instead of looking at people who aren't the president and who are doing objectively better jobs, pointing to missteps and negative hindsights and saying "see, they both failed!"
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Nov 16, 2020 16:56
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twice burned ice posted:Just to be clear, you're talking about the guy who abused federal resources to steal PPE from states, the guy who refused to wear a mask for 4 months, the guy who deliberately decided not to do anything about the virus because it was only hurting blue states . To be clear, the only thing that would have slowed corona was a total lockdown supported by ongoing stimulus. The closest we got to that was a half assed quarantine, a one time check, and extended unemployment that relied on incredibly overwhelmed state unemployment offices to distribute, and theres no real reason to suspect that would have been different under Clinton. Concretely, even in the midst of a third wave that makes the first two peaks look like jokes Biden still maintains he won't start a second lockdown. All of Trumps various pratfalls and crimes are essentially footnotes compared to the total failure of the American system to grind itself to a halt to protect the vulnerable. Exponential growth would have washed all of a hypothetical Clinton's WE HEAR YOU, WE SEE YOUR SUFFERING early response away And, again, look at things like Cuomo providing legal cover to nursing homes that let their charges die, something that impressed the republicans so much they tried to cram it into their own relief bills. And OPEN ER UP fever didn't only infect red states. Every state in the union, whether democrat trifecta or ruby red gop stronghold, hosed up its lockdown in the way American federalism does best. America was always going to be a poo poo show. The belief that it was uniquely Trump ignores the core flaws of the nation and the ideology of its oligarchs.
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Nov 16, 2020 16:57
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RBA Starblade posted:If only more Florida Men were like Jason And Donkey Doug and Pillboy. Donkey Doug loved and cared for his son, don't forget.
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Nov 16, 2020 16:58
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Wait, are people both sides are the same-ing the loving pandemic? How loving broken can you get. If you honestly think that, you really don't actually give a poo poo about anything. You're infected by the same brain worms as glenn greenwald.
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Nov 16, 2020 16:58
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Handsome Ralph posted:
I won’t disagree but nobody is going to know that without being part of the in group. I just see confederate flags next to posts.
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Nov 16, 2020 16:59
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It's not ironic, it's literally celebrating Sherman burning the confederate flag which is/was objectively a good thing in my book.
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Wait, are people both sides are the same the loving pandemic? How loving broken can you get. If you honestly think that, you really don't actually give a poo poo about anything. You're infected by the same brain worms as glenn greenwald. Marx Was A Lib posted:e: I'd like to ask all of the folks intoning that Hillary would've squashed the pandemic how they think spurned MAGA chuds, angry off of having the 2016 election "stolen" from them would have reacted to Hillary telling them to social distance, wear a mask, and skip the holidays this year? A Democrat administration can make calls for public action, but ultimately it's up to the citizenry and I don't see the 40-whatever% of the country's proud chuds playing any nicer under Hillary. e: LeeMajors posted:One crisis at a time, broham. No. Lib and let die fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Nov 16, 2020 |
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Nov 16, 2020 17:00
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Marx Was A Lib posted:Did you not see Biden's absolute refusal to support Medicare For All during this whole dog and pony show we call an election cycle? One crisis at a time, broham.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:01
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Marx Was A Lib posted:I believe the poster you're responding to isn't arguing that burning the confederate flag is bad, but that creating a visage of that symbol where one wouldn't have existed otherwise is....questionable, at best. It's a digital version of "buying nikes to burn to own the libs" uh. You have a loving Stalin gang tag.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:02
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OddObserver posted:uh. You have a loving Stalin gang tag. You don't know how people got those?
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Nov 16, 2020 17:03
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Infinite Karma posted:If Obama and Bush and Reagan and Nixon and Trump are all the same murdering piece of poo poo fascist, racist, imperialist monsters, what's the point of even discussing US politics? Every leader we've ever had and will have for the forseeable future is the same: an irredeemable, murdering, imperialist fascist? to feel smarter than other people by coming up with complicated justifications for why dropping cluster bombs on Yemeni school buses is good if the President is a Democrat and the head of the Penatgon is a woman
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Nov 16, 2020 17:04
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Nix Panicus posted:To be clear, the only thing that would have slowed corona was a total lockdown supported by ongoing stimulus. The closest we got to that was a half assed quarantine, a one time check, and extended unemployment that relied on incredibly overwhelmed state unemployment offices to distribute, and theres no real reason to suspect that would have been different under Clinton. Concretely, even in the midst of a third wave that makes the first two peaks look like jokes Biden still maintains he won't start a second lockdown.. This is not true. A general lockdown with a subsidy is the only thing that would have *stopped* the pandemic. All the other things mentioned above are things that could have *slowed* the pandemic, especially the general distribution of masks. There is no need to both-sides-bad the pandemic response. Binaries are a silly way to analyze most issues and especially this one where there was a wide spectrum of possible responses and each step on that spectrum and each individual action represents marginal improvement.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:04
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mediaphage posted:I won’t disagree but nobody is going to know that without being part of the in group. I just see confederate flags next to posts. That's fair. Though if anyone ever calls it out again, I'm more than happy to indulge them and explain it. Marx Was A Lib posted:e: I'd like to ask all of the folks intoning that Hillary would've squashed the pandemic how they think spurned MAGA chuds, angry off of having the 2016 election "stolen" from them would have reacted to Hillary telling them to social distance, wear a mask, and skip the holidays this year? A Democrat administration can make calls for public action, but ultimately it's up to the citizenry and I don't see the 40-whatever% of the country's proud chuds playing any nicer under Hillary. I don't think Clinton would have squashed the pandemic had it played out the same way it did for Trump earlier this year (so Jan through early March) and the problem with that is that it assumes Clinton or any other Dem downplayed or ignored the virus just as much as Trump did during the early months of this year. I certainly do think that it would not have blown up the same way it did under Trump had she been in office and took precautions earlier in the year/late last year rather than ignoring it or dismissing it as a hoax. I mean it's a giant what if, and the problem with that is that there is no objectively correct answer here.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:04
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Pick posted:-would not have left the WHO (Biden can undo this before it goes into effect in July) To expand on this with regards to another disaster of Trump's foreign policy that doesn't get enough attention: freezing US contributions to the WHO during a pandemic, which impacted the Pan-American Health Organization at a critical time (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/world/trump-bolsonaro-coronavirus-latin-america.html) quote:White House officials say the administration withheld payments from the health organization to demand transparency. They note that the United States helped the region in other ways, by donating tens of millions of dollars through organizations like the World Food Program, UNICEF and the Red Cross. Over the summer, Washington sent hundreds of excess ventilators directly to government health systems. quote:It [Pan-American Health Organization] is often known as the regional arm of the World Health Organization, yet it is decades older and receives much more funding from member states. Public-health experts credit the agency with eradicating smallpox, polio and measles from Latin America long before they were eliminated from Africa and Asia.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:04
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mediaphage posted:I won’t disagree but nobody is going to know that without being part of the in group. I just see confederate flags next to posts. Do you not see it burst into flames and then make fun of maralago? I don't know what it is but it clearly is not celebrating the confederate flag
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Nov 16, 2020 17:04
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Get over hating Hillary jfc. The pandemic was largely apolitical until the loving president made it deeply political. I cannot believe the knots that people will twist themselves into the blame Hillary for everything, somehow, still. It's been four years, get over it. Also, even Republicans in republican states were pretty good with closing down, and a lot of them still don't go out and about, until literally the president told them to be mad about it. This is a following opinion not a leading one.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:05
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Nix Panicus posted:And, again, look at things like Cuomo providing legal cover to nursing homes that let their charges die, something that impressed the republicans so much they tried to cram it into their own relief bills. And OPEN ER UP fever didn't only infect red states. Every state in the union, whether democrat trifecta or ruby red gop stronghold, hosed up its lockdown in the way American federalism does best. America was always going to be a poo poo show. The belief that it was uniquely Trump ignores the core flaws of the nation and the ideology of its oligarchs. I'll add to this that we already voted and elected the lesser of two evils, so all of this is academic. Joe Biden is going to be in charge and he needs to do more than what was done, we'll see how hard he tries.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:05
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Has Trump attacked twitter’s warning system yet? It’s kind of pointless but you’d think he would be a little upset over that.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:05
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Wait, are people both sides are the same-ing the loving pandemic? How loving broken can you get. If you honestly think that, you really don't actually give a poo poo about anything. You're infected by the same brain worms as glenn greenwald. I dont know if it should be punishable, but I think we should probably discourage this genre of "really? Really? REALLY? RRREEEEAAAALLYYYY?" posting in D&D. It doesnt exactly foster much discussion. The only way we would have managed to avoid COVID being a disaster, in my opinion, would have been if we either shut down the economy like China did, or if we had comprehensive and thorough track-and-trace & quarantine like South Korea did. I do not personally believe Clinton, or even Bernie, could have accomplished either; we'd sooner coup ourselves than shut down the economy, and our pathetic healthcare infrastructure combined with our populations' reluctance to incur medical bills would have sabotaged T&T&Q.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:05
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MonsieurChoc posted:Biden [...] built the child cages I cannot find anything to support this statement. Marx Was A Lib posted:Did you not see Biden's absolute refusal to support Medicare For All during this whole dog and pony show we call an election cycle? You are taking a statement saying that "Hillary would have handled this much better" and making into a strawman argument of "Hillary would have quashed the pandemic". It's also pretty silly to take a bunch of things that Hillary could have done and say "It wouldn't have mattered anyway!" with the exact same people where it currently isn't mattering with now. Doctor Butts fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Nov 16, 2020 |
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Nov 16, 2020 17:05
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i am harry posted:Trump loving stole PPE shipments. During the height of the Federal government doing that I did an interview on a radio station in Europe (I'm one of the very few Americans who speaks the language the station broadcasts in) and when I told them that they straight up didn't believe me until I showed them sources because they thought that even Trump's administration couldn't be that craven and mercenary.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:07
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haveblue posted:I can think of a couple of major differences a hypothetical non-terrible president would have made:  sums it up well
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Nov 16, 2020 17:08
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https://twitter.com/NewDay/status/1328319845012824065?s=20
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Nov 16, 2020 17:09
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How about the myriad of refutations that have been posted all over the last page or two of how it would have been better. This is some nihilist sea lioning. Neurolimal posted:I dont know if it should be punishable, but I think we should probably discourage this genre of "really? Really? REALLY? RRREEEEAAAALLYYYY?" posting in D&D. It doesnt exactly foster much discussion. Don't post moronic takes if you don't want someone to be critical of your posts. Also, the idea that it doesn't foster discussion is refuted by the fact you replied to it.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:10
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Nix Panicus posted:After seeing the response from such Democratic luminaries as Cuomo, DeBlasio, and Newsom, as well as the abject failures of several democrat stronghold/trifecta states, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Trump's response to corona wasn't uniquely terrible, and likely any president would have hosed up as badly just as a function of how much America sucks. Obama literally left a Pandemic Playbook that they threw out because Trump hates Obama. America only sucks on this because you had an orange idiot in the white house amplifying and repeating voices that denied and minimized the effects of the virus. Any other president might have embellished the effects of their response, but actively telling people not to wear a mask and that the disease was going to disappear only encouraged people to be willfully stupid.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:10
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Handsome Ralph posted:I don't think Clinton would have squashed the pandemic had it played out the same way it did for Trump earlier this year (so Jan through early March) and the problem with that is that it assumes Clinton or any other Dem downplayed or ignored the virus just as much as Trump did during the early months of this year. I don't know, I think we have a pretty good indicator of how chuds would have reacted - if nothing else, their protests and general refusal to comply in democrat states with democrat governors and democrat legislative bodies is a perfect microcosm of how they'd react under a democrat administration at the federal level. and, pre-emptively: this is not an attempt to blame alternate-timeline hillary for any deaths, but it is irresponsible to think that the coalition of morons that exist today and refuse to do what they're supposed to because "it's a radical left new world order democrat conspiracy to stop your soul from communing to god through your oral hole" wouldn't exist under a democrat administration. I remember being exposed to, say, Alex Jones's nonsense as far back as my senior year in HS (2004). Heck Yes! Loam! posted:How about the myriad of refutations that have been posted all over the last page or two of how it would have been better. "The Democrat president wants to do this, it's clearly a trick to take our liberty away, we're not doing any of it." If I'm engaging in nihilist sea lioning (whatever the gently caress that means), then you're being blindly optimistic. I never denied that Hillary would issue whatever statements and directives she should, I'm asking if anyone is under the, frankly, delusional belief that the group of people actively refusing to comply under Trump would comply under Hillary. rear end. Lib and let die fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Nov 16, 2020 |
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Nov 16, 2020 17:11
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