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seiferguy posted:Idiots on Social Media: I did not do the sex crimes I promise 2 pages back, but Idiots on Social Media: talk about the gulags during foreplay is pretty drat good too.
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Nov 21, 2020 10:41
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Cleretic posted:We used to have one, but then it turned out Asperger was a Nazi and the medical community as a whole realized that he probably wasn't the best kinda guy to name something like that after. "Low-functioning" is in use, but "high-functioning" and "low-functioning" aren't great either because they don't capture the nuances of what an autistic person can or can't do. If Miguel does his own chores at home, but can't manage an unassisted grocery run, is he "high-functioning" or "low-functioning?" If Priya is normally "high-functioning" and has a kicking screaming meltdown, has she become temporarily "low-functioning?" Am I more "high-functioning" than Priya because I tend to shut down instead of visibly melting down, even if I feel just as out-of-control as she does? There's also the implicit assumption that "high-functioning" autistic people need zero disability supports - not true - and that "low-functioning" autistic people cannot possibly communicate or make choices for themselves - also not true. All autistic people communicate, and we all need and deserve disability supports. So instead of talking about "high-functioning" and "low-functioning," or "mild" and "severe" autism, talk about our specific disabilities, behaviors, or support needs. When someone is autistic and non-verbal, say they're "non-verbal autistic." If they need help with everyday tasks, say they need a support worker. If they flap their hands or line stuff up or repeat phrases or run from caretakers or recite facts about dinosaurs at the drop of a hat, say so. If you must slot autistic people into broad groups, try "autistic with low/medium/high support needs." Hope this helps! Pththya-lyi has a new favorite as of 10:55 on Nov 21, 2020 |
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Nov 21, 2020 10:53
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Mega Comrade posted:Yes and if you have a migraine you also just have a headache but the term migraine instantly communicates the severity. Not to go all "Well Ackshully" but did you know you can have a migraine without getting a headache? I get the aura, the feeling weird, cold hands, light sensitivity etc., but very rarely get any kind of head pain. edit: on the low function/high functioning thing, I've seen some circular graphs that do a much better job of communicating the 'spectrum' aspect than a standard linear graph can do. Found an example: 
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Nov 21, 2020 10:53
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Pookah posted:Not to go all "Well Ackshully" but did you know you can have a migraine without getting a headache? I get the aura, the feeling weird, cold hands, light sensitivity etc., but very rarely get any kind of head pain. I've long felt that circular graphs were probably the best way to visualize autistic traits. However, the quiz that generates those particular graphs is based on some outdated research, so take it with a grain of salt. Anyway. Jesus Christ, Sia: https://twitter.com/Sia/status/1329738992519147521?s=20 
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Nov 21, 2020 12:36
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There’s some irony that in a tweet about circles, we come full circle on what started this conversation in the first place.
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Nov 21, 2020 13:06
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dialhforhero posted:Of course their galaxy brains will say that even though they boycotted the election or abstained, the vote was rigged or stolen. One of the key bits of evidence in the case Rudy is desperately trying to get a judge to listen to on Wednesday is two rednecks who are prepared to stand up in court and say even though they hosed up their vote and were allowed to fix it, but didn’t, it’s totally unfair that other rednecks who hosed up in another county were not given the opportunity to not fix it. and this your honourship is why 6 million votes should be thrown out. I swear to god this is all actually true.
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Nov 21, 2020 13:48
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IDK I feel there should be a sign for me to tap marked “just because you have Autism it does not automatically qualify you to be a Autism advocate, but the best advocates I’ve met all have a combination of Autism, experience, and some sort of training in this highly specialised field”
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Nov 21, 2020 13:55
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Pththya-lyi posted:I've long felt that circular graphs were probably the best way to visualize autistic traits. However, the quiz that generates those particular graphs is based on some outdated research, so take it with a grain of salt. Thank you, good to know  Also jfc Sia, those are some toddler-level responses.
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Nov 21, 2020 13:57
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As someone who has done ABA for a decade, it gets really old being told that I am torturing children by *checks notes* playing with them to get them to talk rather than biting themselves until they bleed.
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Nov 21, 2020 13:59
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Just to butt in, can I get a primer on aba, I see something above with 'the good autism groups' saying its explicitly quackery, but obviously you'd disagree?
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Nov 21, 2020 14:20
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they're a swedish pop supergroup
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Nov 21, 2020 14:30
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christmas boots posted:Only an IOSM for the original ad because it's supposed to be Pro-Jesus. 
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Nov 21, 2020 14:43
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Skwirl posted:California was also a country for about a month between leaving Mexico and joining the USA. That's why the state flag says California Republic instead of just California. Runs into thread a page late, panting and smelling slightly of weed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_Republic
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Nov 21, 2020 15:40
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https://twitter.com/simeonaldo/status/1329989693497249792?s=21 “If it weren’t for all the people who voted against him, Trump would have won” is certainly a take.
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Nov 21, 2020 16:22
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Chubby Henparty posted:Just to butt in, can I get a primer on aba, I see something above with 'the good autism groups' saying its explicitly quackery, but obviously you'd disagree? The elevator speech: Behavior analysis is a naturalistic science on learning and behavior, why we do what we do. ABA is the use of the science of learning to help people. It does this by teaching new skills to help people with skill deficits, or who do behaviors that hurt themselves in some way. For example, I get severe behavior cases, so if I have a child who gouges at his eyes when he wants something, we teach him how to ask for it instead using a method that's easy for him, which might be speech, sign language, an iPad speech app, etc. This learning is individualized to each client or student - their particular interests, needs, skills, etc. It emphasizes using positive, natural interactions to teach whenever possible, and uses ongoing data collection to constantly evaluate if the teaching is effective. Think of it like a 1:1 tutor who focuses on teaching you what you need in the way that works best for you. Sessions often look like play, or like a typical classroom environment. The most common thing that I teach is communication skills. ABA uses operant and respondent conditioning to do this. You probably associate these things with dog training and Clockwork Orange. Sadly, those are grossly, grossly inaccurate and oversimplified. Its not 'dog training for children.' These forms of learning are the basis for all human (and non-human) learning. It gets far, far more complicated than "reward good behavior  ." One of my specialty areas is using verbal mediation for improving delay of gratification, something a lot of people wouldn't think falls under that paradigm, because their knowledge is limited to seeing Brian kicking Pavlov on Family Guy."Good Autism Groups" typically misrepresent the field a lot, often due to outdated information, or folks who base their knowledge on ABA from what a friend of a friend of a friend wrote in a blog about it. Very few have actually read the literature or experienced it firsthand. I think the poster who said, "They don't like being lumped in with the lower-functioning folks" applies here a bit too. They don't want the level of intensive services that are often given to kids with greater skill deficits, which they wouldn't ever receive, but I get the knee-jerk reaction since they are being lumped together. "Its not science.": There's hundreds if not thousands of peer-reviewed studies, so... "There's no licensure in place.": True in a few states. There are ongoing efforts by behavior analysts to expand licensure. We WANT to be highly regulated, and are working for it. "The field uses shock.": No we don't. There was ONE center that used shock with a small percentage of their most severe cases, often those who went through 6-10 other programs before going to that center. The "misbehavior" the shock is for is things like breaking people's bones, slamming their head on concrete, etc. A dozen cases at one center does not represent the field, and 99.9999% of the field will never use a shock and vehemently opposes it. "They try to cure autism.": There were a couple studies that showed that with intense treatment, some kids no longer qualified for an autism diagnosis. Its important to note that the actual diagnosis for autism is a list of specific behaviors and skill deficits. If you address those, some kids lose the label. But changing a kid's diagnosis is never the focus, nor is changing personalities, neurology, etc. Its just teaching kids important skills. In fact, if I were to claim I could cure autism, that would be considered an ethical violation and I'd lose my certification in ABA. "They force kids to make eye contact and never let them stim.": This was ABA in the 60s. We do teach kids to orient their gaze, because it can be hard to learn if you never look at instructional materials, but eye gaze is not forced anymore. Similarly, we don't work with stimming unless it proves a problem to that client. I had one student who would stop in the middle of the street to stim - that poo poo is dangerous. Or a child who stims by shouting - "They only teach kids to follow instructions": Its not the only thing we teach, but yeah, we do teach kids to follow directions. That's not an inherently bad thing. Show me a 4-year-old who doesn't need to listen to his mom, or his teacher. There's a lot of hand wringing over "If you teach them to follow their teacher's instructions to do the worksheet, they will listen to any adult for anything, and will be abused!" Which is a valid concern, and a concern that comes up with allistic/neurotypical kids who never receive ABA, too. The trick is to explicitly teach kids who they should and shouldn't listen to, and what types of instructions shouldn't be followed. Ironically, I have had older kids referred to me for ABA services to help them learn when NOT to do what a peer tells them to do. This got longer than expected. I'm happy to discuss via PM with anyone who's interested.
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Nov 21, 2020 16:42
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Dienes posted:The elevator speech: Behavior analysis is a naturalistic science on learning and behavior, why we do what we do. ABA is the use of the science of learning to help people. It does this by teaching new skills to help people with skill deficits, or who do behaviors that hurt themselves in some way. For example, I get severe behavior cases, so if I have a child who gouges at his eyes when he wants something, we teach him how to ask for it instead using a method that's easy for him, which might be speech, sign language, an iPad speech app, etc. This learning is individualized to each client or student - their particular interests, needs, skills, etc. It emphasizes using positive, natural interactions to teach whenever possible, and uses ongoing data collection to constantly evaluate if the teaching is effective. Think of it like a 1:1 tutor who focuses on teaching you what you need in the way that works best for you. Sessions often look like play, or like a typical classroom environment. The most common thing that I teach is communication skills. This is a really good post. I've worked in the field and my dad writes the book on the subject (not to dox myself, but you know the one probably) and I like your explanation a lot. He would too!
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Nov 21, 2020 17:03
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lmfao that entire post about ABA is going "people claim X but actually they're wrong because X ony happens a LITTLe bit therefore how dare you criticize me in any way"
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Nov 21, 2020 17:25
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InediblePenguin posted:lmfao that entire post about ABA is going "people claim X but actually they're wrong because X ony happens a LITTLe bit therefore how dare you criticize me in any way" I'm sorry things aren't as simple as you want them to be. These are complex situations and context matters, and that context is what is missing from a lot of criticisms. Its like saying "That man knocked her unconscious and started cutting her up!" and leaving out that it was done with a scalpel, during a surgery, to save her life. There is a difference between "They never allow stimming!" and "They allow it unless it is a rare case in which its harming someone." There is a difference between "The entire field gleefully shocks people" and "A handful of practitioners use shock, to the horror of the rest of the field, for the purposes of saving a life." I didn't realize these were subtle distinctions and will work harder in the future to make the nuances clear. It turns out things are complex and context matters, and an entire scientific discipline is not defined by the actions of a single person or center. Otherwise there is literally no profession that is legitimate and no science that is trustworthy.
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Nov 21, 2020 17:54
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I'm autistic and wish there was an advocacy group that was pro treatment. I'm glad I suffered the "intolerable" treatment of being taught how to sit in a chair without falling over.
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Nov 21, 2020 17:59
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rodbeard posted:I'm autistic and wish there was an advocacy group that was pro treatment. I'm glad I suffered the "intolerable" treatment of being taught how to sit in a chair without falling over. Is this going to be the whole deaf and Deaf problem again? Because, learning to live with a condition and wanting the world to actually change such that you don't have to "learn to live with it" are kind of what is being argued about. I've seen people say that they want to "manage" their depression, not get rid of it because it is as much a part of them as any other social aspect of their personality.
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Nov 21, 2020 18:24
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https://twitter.com/stefanroberts/status/1330091788397408257
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Nov 21, 2020 18:26
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I would 100% want to get rid of my depression, personally. I use "manage" because it's unlikely that will ever happen, not because I'm attached to it as part of my identity or personality.
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Nov 21, 2020 18:26
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Vib Rib posted:I would 100% want to get rid of my depression, personally. I use "manage" because it's unlikely that will ever happen, not because I'm attached to it as part of my identity or personality. I, only a purely personal note, would not disagree. However there are people who would/ do not want it gone. Why are they wrong and why are "we" right.
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Nov 21, 2020 18:30
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Dienes posted:
Thank you for that, its very helpful and I appreciate you taking the time. May pm you at some point!
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Nov 21, 2020 18:48
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Josef bugman posted:I, only a purely personal note, would not disagree. However there are people who would/ do not want it gone. Why are they wrong and why are "we" right.
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Nov 21, 2020 18:58
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Josef bugman posted:I, only a purely personal note, would not disagree. However there are people who would/ do not want it gone. Why are they wrong and why are "we" right. This is getting more into the realm of philosophy, which is something I had only brief study in. But I was fond of utilitarianism, where the "right" action is the one that most increases happiness. So, by that measure, getting rid of something that is a clinical inability to feel happy is the illustrated picture of "right" that would appear in the dictionary.
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Nov 21, 2020 18:58
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"Instinctively generous and open-minded man"  Yeah, he blocked pro-LGBT+ legislation for 8 years and sent soldiers to countries we're still oppressing 19 years later, but remember that apocryphal story where he was decent to a woman who transitioned?
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Nov 21, 2020 18:59
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https://twitter.com/rajandelman/status/1329950451022901248
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Nov 21, 2020 19:01
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I think it's important for people to be taught healthy or harmless coping mechanisms, which applies to non-autistic people too but can certainly be more pressing with someone autistic who needs more coping mechanisms for stings like change, unexpected stimuli, etc. I also think practices you've admitted were in use in ABA decades ago but are not common now probably caused a lot of trauma and it's not unexpected for there to be community distrust after that. Maybe some of the people you see spreading misinformation were taken to quacks and hurt. Unfortunately, pseudoscience and harmful therapy exists.
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Nov 21, 2020 19:02
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I have lived with ADHD hidden from me until my parents told me (with this hint of ashamed tone) that I was diagnosed as a kid and showed me the report WELL into my adulthood. I always was told, or believed, it was just my personality and my forgetfulness or inattention was a character fault. It blew my loving mind. I have had to learn how to cope with my attention problems all my life and came up with strategies to alleviate or at least mitigate the issue so I could succeed in not just academics, but professionally and even in relationships. Not going to lie, since discovering that I actually clinically was diagnosed I have gone back and forth on if I should seek medication. My mother told me that when I was a kid she didn’t want me to get on any because “it would change who I was”. I guess sometimes I am afraid how I will change and if my sense of humor or just things that have made me me will change. The idea of why you may actually not want to get rid of your “fault” is real for very personal and individual reasons, even if they are irrational, naive, or perhaps detrimental. dialhforhero has a new favorite as of 19:09 on Nov 21, 2020 |
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Nov 21, 2020 19:05
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Imagine getting angry at the person joking about a political figure instead of being angry at the political figure who is literally big game hunting in Africa for fun.
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Nov 21, 2020 19:08
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Vib Rib posted:I didn't say I was right and they were wrong. I explicitly noted that it was just my personal opinion. If you didn't think you were right it wouldn't be a position you'd hold though, right? PharmerBoy posted:This is getting more into the realm of philosophy, which is something I had only brief study in. But I was fond of utilitarianism, where the "right" action is the one that most increases happiness. So, by that measure, getting rid of something that is a clinical inability to feel happy is the illustrated picture of "right" that would appear in the dictionary. I would disagree. Not least is that "happiness" isn't necessarily the highest good and because Utilitarianism can lead to weird situations like "the ethnic group doesn't like being second class? Make them all leave, that way they are no longer unhappy and cannot bring down the happiness of other people". The later actually happened in Bhutan fairly recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutan#Ethnic_cleansing_of_Lhotshampas
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Nov 21, 2020 19:16
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dialhforhero posted:I have lived with ADHD hidden from me until my parents told me (with this hint of ashamed tone) that I was diagnosed as a kid and showed me the report WELL into my adulthood. I always was told, or believed, it was just my personality and my forgetfulness or inattention was a character fault. From experience, ADHD medication causes absolutely no change in my personality, it just makes it easier to get things done. Like, the only personality crisis I've had is realizing how many habits and tics I have are adhd symptoms. This isn't an antidepressant or any other sort of medication that would maybe adjust how you feel. That's just my experience obviously, but. I heavily reccomend trying out medication.
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Nov 21, 2020 19:27
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dialhforhero posted:
Most mental medications will not "change your personality," unless your personality is based on having a mental illness and literally nothing else. If there IS a big change, then it's most likely either a dosing problem or the wrong med. Josef bugman posted:Is this going to be the whole deaf and Deaf problem again? I just don't know why we can't help make the world better oriented for people who have a problem AND also help treat the problem if it's treatable.
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Nov 21, 2020 19:36
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Josef bugman posted:If you didn't think you were right it wouldn't be a position you'd hold though, right? Oh, utilitarianism certainly has its faults. I guess the real issue with your question is that you are asking what is "right," without giving a definition of "right" for this scenario. Without the definition, any answer ends up with a moving goalpost situation. Setting a definition at least makes that question something that can be discussed. In a practical sense, you could have someone say that their cancer is part of their lived in experience and who they are. And their right, it is! That doesn't make it a good thing to keep around. Medical ethics as they are, we're not going to force treatment on anyone who doesn't want it (leaving aside situations like parent deciding for their children, etc.), nor should we. That doesn't mean someone making their medical decision can't be dumb or wrong. If anyone wants to get mad at me about the depression-cancer comparison, yes I have depression myself. I am also a medical professional. And I do recognize that people choose not to be treated for these and other conditions for various reasons. That's cool! A treatments have drawbacks, some worse than the disease. But "I like my depression" is loving dumb, even if nobody gets to overrule you for your dumb opinion.
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Nov 21, 2020 19:42
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hyperhazard posted:"Instinctively generous and open-minded man" Not his fault you didn't go to the right schools.
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Nov 21, 2020 19:46
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Puppy Time posted:I just don't know why we can't help make the world better oriented for people who have a problem AND also help treat the problem if it's treatable. Partially because the people who have a "problem" don't see it as an actual "problem". They are perfectly fine with it, why should they have to change in order to suit what everyone else wants them to be? PharmerBoy posted:Oh, utilitarianism certainly has its faults. I guess the real issue with your question is that you are asking what is "right," without giving a definition of "right" for this scenario. Without the definition, any answer ends up with a moving goalpost situation. Setting a definition at least makes that question something that can be discussed. Valid. Personally I find it hard to believe in a purely Utilitarian ethical position. Why is it dumb though? Like, "It makes you unhappy" can apply to lots of things we apply to the wider world. It makes me unhappy to have to work for someone who doesn't give a poo poo if I live or die, why should I therefore reconcile myself to that? That sort of argument.
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Nov 21, 2020 19:53
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Yes those people have the inalienable right to be oppressed and brutalised by a semi-capable local strongman, rather than an incompetent, local strongman backed by the west.
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Nov 21, 2020 19:58
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It is possible to believe that people should have the option to choose whether or not they want to change parts of themselves to exist more comfortably in a social context. The existence of such options does carry an implicit pressure to use them as every possible choice does, but you don't have to, same as you don't have to take recreational drugs or undergo plastic surgery. But you wouldn't generally take the position that those things need to be banned so people can learn to do without them, you would think the appropriate response would be to help people make the best decision for them.
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Nov 21, 2020 20:13
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Josef bugman posted:Partially because the people who have a "problem" don't see it as an actual "problem". They are perfectly fine with it, why should they have to change in order to suit what everyone else wants them to be? I'm not going to play "just asking questions" with you. If you have a position, state what "right" means to you and why your position fits it. Every philosophy has issues when taken to extremes and edge cases, so its the easy route to say everything is wrong without actually trying to figure out what's right.
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Nov 21, 2020 20:19
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