Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014


Libluini posted:

You realize by claiming something extraordinary, you also need extraordinary proof. So, where is your proof? Right now, this reads like pure-strained delusion to me.


Even funnier: Groovelord Neato thinking because he doesn't like something it must obviously mean it does not exist. That's a level of mental disfunction that's amazing! Do you think he will start or join a cult soon? :allears:

The evidence is the sequels and especially the prequels.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY

Libluini posted:

Even funnier: Groovelord Neato thinking because he doesn't like something it must obviously mean it does not exist. That's a level of mental disfunction that's amazing! Do you think he will start or join a cult soon? :allears:

All I'm getting here is that you enjoyed the books. Individual choice, obviously, but most people who like Dune like it for reasons beyond pew-pew laser fights and giant robot punch action time. The son's books are basically ghost-written by his co-author, an ordinary claim that I can easily back up by pointing to every other thing that guy has written and comparing the continuation.

There is no "canon". There are the six books written by Frank Herbert. Why bother talking about some inferior pulp which only gets peoples' attention because it has the word "Dune" in it?

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY
My own opinion is that people who like the EU probably like the scenery more than the substance. But you need both for a good novel.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.
I've gained some grudging respect for KJA after learning how he writes his books. He just goes on a walk in the wilderness, dictating whatever passes through his brain. And then he gets paid for it.

PeterWeller
Apr 21, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.

Libluini posted:

You realize by claiming something extraordinary, you also need extraordinary proof.

The claim without proof is that Brian found his dad's secret notes.

Now that said, I tend to think these notes actually do exist, but they're just some ideas Frank had jotted down, stuff like "Daniel and Marty--Machines?" and "Ghola Paul".

But it's clear from the very structure of Brian and KJA's novels that they're not following some master plan laid out by Frank. They went and wrote half a dozen prequels just to lay the groundwork for their conclusion to the series. Those prequels tied everything into the Jihad, which, as we discussed at length last week, is more a background detail than an overarching and regularly mentioned motif in Frank's novels. Those novels contorted themselves to put Houses Atreides, Harkonnen, and Corrino at the center of every major event while Frank's novels had moved well beyond the house v house intrigues. Those novels introduced a pair of supervillains to be the overarching antagonists of the series when Frank's novels are about his anxieties over superheroes. If they were following Frank's plan, they wouldn't have gone to such lengths to so thoroughly shift the focus of the series.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!
I don't think Daniel and Marty are machines in Chapterhouse. It's much more interesting if Leto is correct and the Scattering guarantees humanity's survival imo as the BG/HM are only operating for their own survival - which is what they've been doing all along - rather than humanity in general's. Turning it into the heroic BG saving us all from the machines runs against the grain of every single one of the six Frank books.

(It's very easy to see the HM as an existential threat to the people of the old empire because of what happens to the BG and the BT. But, for the most part, textual evidence is that they're only an existential threat to the institutions, and most of the population goes along just fine)

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink
From the one prequel book I've read (whose name I couldn't recall) I'm willing to believe that these notes exist. There was just enough that was true to the themes in Frank's work.

In particular, a small part involved the ecology of a cold-weather planet under Harkonnen rule whose population maintained a culture of whaling. It didn't get too elaborate: the local population heavily ritualizes whaling so to not over hunt, an off planet Harkonnen prince visits and attempts to prove himself to the local culture by successfully bringing in several whales, only to be surprised that everyone hated him afterwards for destroying a breeding population. It hits most of the basic notes of OG Dune's conservation message, and there was a clear connection between the ecology of whaling and the whole sand worm thing.

It wasn't terrible! It suffered from Anderson's work-horse prose, but it wasn't terrible!

But that was a small part of a larger book which also dealt with Duncan Idaho on the "learn to be a D&D adventurer" planet, some indeterminable "will he or won't he" about Duke Leto buying a clone kid, some semi-fetishistic looks into the Harkonnen planet of manual labor and BDSM (guest starring the Bene Gesserit), and whatever meaningless politics the Emperor was getting up to.

It's fully believable to believe that quite a lot of it was directed by some notes Frank left behind, but was also clearly is not a Frank Herbert Dune book. There's very little benefit to considering it as one beyond comparing the whaling culture to the Fremen and the sand worms.

Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Nov 18, 2020

PeterWeller
Apr 21, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.

MrL_JaKiri posted:

I don't think Daniel and Marty are machines in Chapterhouse. It's much more interesting if Leto is correct and the Scattering guarantees humanity's survival imo as the BG/HM are only operating for their own survival - which is what they've been doing all along - rather than humanity in general's. Turning it into the heroic BG saving us all from the machines runs against the grain of every single one of the six Frank books.

(It's very easy to see the HM as an existential threat to the people of the old empire because of what happens to the BG and the BT. But, for the most part, textual evidence is that they're only an existential threat to the institutions, and most of the population goes along just fine)

Yeah, I don't think they are either. But I also think that Frank hadn't yet decided what they were, and he may have toyed with the idea that they were machines in his notes for the seventh book. Then Brian and KJA take that idea and run with it.

And I think you are exactly right about how Brian and KJA miss the point of the books Frank did finish. The HM are definitely an existential threat to the BG, but the ultimate point of the Scattering is that an existential threat to an institution as powerful as the BG will never again be an existential threat to humanity at large. It's also important to consider how the BG respond to that threat: First, they scatter, sending sisters and worms out into space to establish new Chapter Houses. Second, they adapt, merging with the HM to create a BG/HM hybrid that can face whatever threatens the HM.

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019

by vyelkin
What are the chances that these films have some T&A in them?

Best iteration so far was that Sci-fi miniseries, so that wasn't possible.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Grandpa Palpatine posted:

What are the chances that these films have some T&A in them?

Best iteration so far was that Sci-fi miniseries, so that wasn't possible.

Well if we get up to Heretics...

KaptainKrunk
Feb 6, 2006


6 is a good thematic end to the story

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019

by vyelkin

MrL_JaKiri posted:

Well if we get up to Heretics...

do the fremen suck & gently caress a lot in it?

Yadoppsi
May 10, 2009
Two more thoughts on the notes and then I'll drop it. Christopher Tolkien opened JRR's notes and letters to the archivists so we have evidence of how diligent and respectful of his father's legacy he was when he compiled The Silmrillion and Children of Huron. Why does Brian refuse to let anyone see Frank's notes?

Brian's original claim was he found a floppy disk containing the Dune notes. How much data can a floppy from the 80's hold? Three trilogies worth of notes?

Kassad
Nov 12, 2005

It's about time.

Grandpa Palpatine posted:

do the fremen suck & gently caress a lot in it?

No, it's a few thousand years after Dune and the Fremen are gone. It's the Bene Gesserit who gently caress.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Yadoppsi posted:

Brian's original claim was he found a floppy disk containing the Dune notes. How much data can a floppy from the 80's hold? Three trilogies worth of notes?

Standard mid 80s 5 1/4 inch floppies could hold 360kb, which could hold the entire text of any of the books except the first. Text isn't big.

Anne Frank Funk
Nov 4, 2008

I want a big burly robot lord to gently caress me, is that in line with dune canon?

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

"..The high ground"

KaptainKrunk posted:

6 is a good thematic end to the story

The last three books are way worse than the first three.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink

Panzeh posted:

The last three books are way worse than the first three.

I think it makes more sense to divide Dune into pairs. Messiah basically finishes the story Dune began. Children and God Emperor takes the psychedelic and transhumanist elements to their logical end. Heretics and Chapterhouse are whatever the gently caress they are.

But yeah, Dune + Messiah is clearly the best of the lot and Heretics + Chapterhouse is the worst.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY

MrL_JaKiri posted:

Standard mid 80s 5 1/4 inch floppies could hold 360kb, which could hold the entire text of any of the books except the first. Text isn't big.

Yeah but even if his notes were organized and well-fleshed, I wouldn't trust those two to interpret it correctly. If it's about space men in leotards fighting with swords, that's it to them. If it's something about machines being a danger, then it's terminators. Let people say what they want about the weird sex stuff with Frank but those guys are probably at the level of "he was touching her boobs, both of them! and she was panting and calling him 'hot rod Dunc' and he suddenly stopped and asked how she knew Duncan #1375 had been a podracer, then she pulled of her face and she was a sexy terminator! he grabbed her butt, it was good."


e. They probably won't release the notes for the same reason they won't re-release the Encyclopedia: they'd make some money, but it would underscore how lovely and rote their own work* is.


* Honestly feels like they could churn them out at one a month. I mean first draft all the way to print. A lot of science fiction authors give me the impression that all they do is sit at a screen and pet their cat for most of their "work day". But I guess that's what you get when there's more people writing science fiction than reading it.

phasmid fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Nov 19, 2020

KaptainKrunk
Feb 6, 2006


Heretics and Chapterhouse have an interesting atmosphere, some good characters, and they do a lot of world-building, but they are definitely a step backwards. I like the ending of Chapterhouse anyway because we have two books full of scheming by the BG, HM, and Tleilaxu, trying to manipulate and control Duncan and what is now this just remote, backwater (old empire) and he is just like "Nah" and rejects love to fly off into the sunset with his crew.

The Posting Imam
Oct 22, 2020

by Cyrano4747
God Emperor is the best one because its about a big funny worm that falls down a waterfall

PeterWeller
Apr 21, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.

It's a novel about an immortal and omniscient worm god engineering his own surprise assassination. It's great.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink
God Emperor ain't the best Dune novel but I respect the hell of out it.

PeterWeller
Apr 21, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.

I wouldn't call it the best, but I think it's maybe my favorite.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink
Children of Dune is also interesting as existing alongside Doc Smith's Children of the Lens and Arthur Clark's Childhood's End as transhumanist psychedelic sci-fi novels with "child" in their title.

Which was a thing.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY

Schwarzwald posted:

Children of Dune is also interesting as existing alongside Doc Smith's Children of the Lens and Arthur Clark's Childhood's End as transhumanist psychedelic sci-fi novels with "child" in their title.

Which was a thing.

In Childhood's end humanity doesn't even bother with transhumanism, they just go straight to post-human in about one century.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006

KaptainKrunk
Feb 6, 2006


I found Children of Dune pretty allusive and a bit scattershot. I can easily picture Dune, Messiah, and God Emperor, as each has its own aesthetic. Children and the final two especially just seem a bit all over the place.

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, MAD-2R World
One interesting facet of Dune is that it's full of impressively competent characters who nevertheless either eat poo poo and fail constantly, or succeed in ways that only make their lives more hellish while causing horrific unintended consequences.

If Dune was being written in 2020 everyone with power would be a huge moron rear end in a top hat who kept failing upwards, while everyone with half a brain was just an ever more depressed spectator.

Even Rabban is too smart to be a 2020 villain, since he at least had the sense to say "Hey guys maybe we should look into these Fremem, they kind of seem like A Thing that might matter?" instead of just shouting FAKE NEWS at everything.

sean10mm fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Nov 23, 2020

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY
Rabban, who once ate a journalist on holocam for asking where the water was, paid more attention to affairs in his fief than modern "leaders" do? Checks out.

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, MAD-2R World

phasmid posted:

Rabban, who once ate a journalist on holocam for asking where the water was, paid more attention to affairs in his fief than modern "leaders" do? Checks out.

:argh: MENTAT? MORE LIKE MEANT AT DEEZ NUTS but seriously, we really need to do a Fremen census boss

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.
Rabban's a Beast, not a moron.

GORDON
Jan 1, 2006

by Fluffdaddy

sean10mm posted:

One interesting facet of Dune is that it's full of impressively competent characters who nevertheless either eat poo poo and fail constantly, or succeed in ways that only make their lives more hellish while causing horrific unintended consequences.

I've always found the most insidious kind of evil was that who let good, competent men make bad decisions in the name of trying to do good thigns. Sauron was good at that in the LotR back stories, and in Dune the Emperor and Bene Gesserit kept everything obfuscated. None of our main players had all the information. They all made good decisions (for them) that led them to bad ends, because they weren't the ones playing chess.

I guess the first few seasons of GoT would fit in that scenario, since no one knew that one particular character was puppet mastering everyone on all sides.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink

GORDON posted:

I've always found the most insidious kind of evil was that who let good, competent men make bad decisions in the name of trying to do good thigns. Sauron was good at that in the LotR back stories, and in Dune the Emperor and Bene Gesserit kept everything obfuscated. None of our main players had all the information. They all made good decisions (for them) that led them to bad ends, because they weren't the ones playing chess.

I know I've said this already, but this is a big part of why I liked the Gom Jabbar scene. Mother Superior basically sits Paul down and tells him "the Bene Gesserit are the bad guys" and she doesn't even realize it.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY
"I see the truth of it."

:blastu:

David D. Davidson
Nov 17, 2012

Orca lady?
And then Feank Herbert forgot that for the last two books.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

David D. Davidson posted:

And then Feank Herbert forgot that for the last two books.

The BG aren't the heroes of the last two books any more than Paul is the hero of the first two

KaptainKrunk
Feb 6, 2006


yeah the entire plot of the books is kicked off by one of the BG going "this poo poo is really stupid" and deciding for herself what she wants to do. After the scattering they lose their original purpose, so they spend two books scheming over a backwater while the rest of the universe has like crazy robots, cat people, and their organizational doppelganger. The ending is two genetically engineered face dancers who overthrew their masters (and are probably some sort of KH) letting everyone go because Herbert really, really dislikes social engineering.

KaptainKrunk fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Nov 26, 2020

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY
Also, Duncan goes off into the unknown with (Murbella? Right? It's been a bit) and Scytale, who has the Bene Tleilax' holy grail, their accumulated history and geneology.

Duncan straight up says gently caress the police one more time, since he already told the Atreides twice, once to his lost love Alia and then again to a deity. Having done that, it's pretty easy for him to say 'gently caress off' to the rest of the universe. You really have to love Duncan, he's tha wandering sailor.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

phasmid posted:

Also, Duncan goes off into the unknown with (Murbella? Right? It's been a bit) and Scytale

Re: Chapterhouse end, Nah, murbella is off being head of the BG and the HM. It's Sheeana who flies off

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply