|
Is there anything I can do to increase my chances of getting one of the Asus RTX cards with the preinstalled ekwb water block? I looked on their website to see if they had some sort of queue system setup but didn’t see anything. But I could have missed it or you smart people know things I don’t. https://www.asus.com/us/News/bcpwjfnhly5y2ysx Coredump fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Nov 24, 2020 |
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 09:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 01:12 |
|
|
Nohearum posted:Just a heads up for anyone that purchased an MSI motherboard in November. Make sure you register and do their black Friday promo and shoutout (totally not a bribe for an Amazon review) things. I ended up getting $62.99 in Steam credits from those two items. Just tried doing this for a B550m Mortar Wifi motherboard I bought on Sunday but apparently I can't register it until 14 days after purchase  - probably them hoping people forget about registering!
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 09:24
|
|
|
Ok, I've sworn to myself my entire life I'd never go down this route - but I've got a really nice dark tempered glass case, and it's pushing me to go against everything I hold dear and consider some internal lighting. I don't want to go crazy on the tackiness - but a nice light strip to illuminate the case behind the dark glass might just be the ticket. Anyone got any recommendations? I'm not convinced this motherboard has any RBG headers, so I'm guessing it'll have to be molex?
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 10:43
|
|
|
Gearing up for Cyberpunks release and I'm thinking about upgrading my build on the CPU side. I'm currently running: i5 6500 16GB RAM 1060 6GB Going by the Cyberpunk system requirements (I know we don't have any real-world benchmarks yet) I think I'm going to be bottlenecked by my CPU (4 core/4 thread). I'm happy continuing with the 1060 as I'm only running a 1080p 60Hz monitor. I'd like to upgrade to the Ryzen 3600, obviously I'll need a new mobo for this, I'll likely get a B550 so that I have further upgrade options down the line. My hesitation lies around installing the new CPU/Motherboard - hardware-wise I'm comfortable, but in terms of my Windows 10 install etc, is there anything I need to consider or is it simply a case of dropping the new hardware in? Would a fresh install of Windows be prudent/necessary? Any other considerations? AOTKPTW fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Nov 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 11:03
|
|
|
What country are you in? What are you using the system for? Web and Office? Gaming? Video or photo editing? Professional creative or scientific computing? Gaming. What's your budget? We usually specify for just the computer itself (plus Windows), but if you also need monitor/mouse/whatever, just say so. For the entire computer excluding monitor it's ~$1 500 but that's with components being more expensive here so I'm fairly flexible. If you're gaming, what is your monitor resolution / refresh rate? How fancy do you want your graphics, from “it runs” to “Ultra preset as fast as possible”? I have an Acer Predator X27 that I intend to keep. It runs at 2560x1440 / 144hz and the plan is to buy a 3080 to go with it. I'm mainly looking for advice on which 3080 as well as what CPU and motherboard to get (though I'm happy for advice on the rest as well!). I don't mind waiting a while for the 3080 to get back in stock but I'd like to take advantage of the black friday sale to at least order all the parts.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 11:21
|
|
|
AOTKPTW posted:Gearing up for Cyberpunks release and I'm thinking about upgrading my build on the CPU side. I'm currently running: You should be fine! Windows seems pretty good at knowing when you've swapped hardware. When you swap motherboards, Windows will see it as a whole new machine, so you might unexpectedly find that your copy of windows is no longer activate it. You can re-activate by going into the account settings, where there's an option to let Windows know you're using new hardware so it can transfer the license over.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 11:33
|
|
|
The Grumbles posted:You should be fine! Windows seems pretty good at knowing when you've swapped hardware. When you swap motherboards, Windows will see it as a whole new machine, so you might unexpectedly find that your copy of windows is no longer activate it. You can re-activate by going into the account settings, where there's an option to let Windows know you're using new hardware so it can transfer the license over. Thanks my man - I may end up performing a fresh install of Windows in any case - I've been running this same build since I first built my PC back in 2016!
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 11:47
|
|
|
So with black friday looming, I made a tentative list of what my next build should look like * CPU AMD Ryzen 5 3600, 6C/12T, 3.60-4.20GHz * RAM Corsair Vengeance LPX DIMM Kit 16GB, DDR4-3200, CL16-18-18-36 * GPU ASUS Phoenix GeForce GTX 1650 SUPER OC, PH-GTX1650S-O4G, 4GB GDDR6 * MB MSI B550-A Pro The CPU is a little bit more than I'd like to pay, so not sure if I should consider a cheaper option. For the motherboard I just picked a budget one that was in the top ten list of my retailer. I still have a newish 450 PSU, so not gonna buy a new one.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 11:49
|
|
|
Nohearum posted:Just a heads up for anyone that purchased an MSI motherboard in November. Make sure you register and do their black Friday promo and shoutout (totally not a bribe for an Amazon review) things. I ended up getting $62.99 in Steam credits from those two items. Thanks for the advice.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 12:53
|
|
|
AOTKPTW posted:Thanks my man - I may end up performing a fresh install of Windows in any case - I've been running this same build since I first built my PC back in 2016! I say this all the time but if you keep Windows 10 up to date you have actually re-installed it multiple times.  When it does one of the 2x a year huge "feature updates" it actually installs the core OS over the top. absolutely no reason not to start fresh and clean out old startup items, etc. but windows is pretty robust these days! I swapped processors, boards, and moved my boot drives to entirely new SATA ports and just had to re-activate on first power up.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 14:59
|
|
|
Nohearum posted:Just a heads up for anyone that purchased an MSI motherboard in November. Make sure you register and do their black Friday promo and shoutout (totally not a bribe for an Amazon review) things. I ended up getting $62.99 in Steam credits from those two items. Wow, even more proof I should have just waited 2 weeks to build this system.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 15:12
|
|
|
bus hustler posted:I say this all the time but if you keep Windows 10 up to date you have actually re-installed it multiple times. Thanks, that's really good to know. Time to hunt for a decent deal on a Ryzen 5 3500 + mobo combo! Is there any reason NOT to get a B450 instead of a B550? I know the B550's are compatible with the latest Ryzen processors out of the box but am I right in thinking that the B450 boards can just be flashed in the event that I do a further upgrade in the future?
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 15:22
|
|
|
I've heard some of the B450 boards can only be flashed once you're up and running - so if you end up getting one of the new Ryzens, just make sure you do all your updates before you chuck the old processor, if you get one of those boards. There'll probably be some marginal stuff you only get with the B550s - it's possible AMD's set bonus (+5 or so to FPS) you get when you have both a 5xxx processor and one of their new graphics cards will only work with the newer boards. But someone else in the thread will probably have a firmer understanding.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 15:31
|
|
|
AOTKPTW posted:Thanks, that's really good to know. Are you near a Microcenter? It's not a huge savings, but no, there's no mega downside especially at Microcenter where you can get a 3600 + Tomahawk max or Aorus Pro for $275 Are you carrying over your RAM?
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 15:41
|
|
|
Nothing is certain to be compatible with Zen 3 out of the box. B550 and X570 also need a BIOS update unless you luck into a board that was literally just made in the last couple weeks. B450 boards don't have PCIe 4.0 on the graphics card or any of the M.2 slots, and are generally built to a lower feature set than comparable B550 boards. So like the B550 Tomahawk is basically better in every measurable way than the B450 Tomahawk MAX - better PCB, better VRM, newer LAN chipset and audio chipset, and so on. The bottom tier B550M boards like the Bazooka basically are built like the mid-higher tier B450 boards like the Tomahawk MAX, and almost all of them have BIOS flashback so you can update the BIOS for Zen 3 without any CPU at all. Higher end X570 boards have this feature too, but not some of the cheaper ones. e: In general I'm not a fan of chasing down the absolute bottom barrel motherboard just to save 20 bucks or whatever. When builds eat poo poo it's usually because of a bottom tier motherboard or PSU. This doesn't mean all B450 boards are trash or anything but the saving doesn't feel like it's actually worth it anymore now that all the B550 boards aren't selling for $200+. sean10mm fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Nov 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 15:43
|
|
|
Yeah on the low end there's a lot of overlap between B550M & B450, but realistically for someone who doesnt seem to upgrade or tinker that much if its cheap a B450 will be perfectly fine. Like being honest my B450 broke and nothing changed for me going to B550, it just opened up some potential & now i have a random second ethernet port?? i'd rather more USB...
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 15:51
|
|
|
My MSI B450 Gaming Plus Max, a pretty good $100 board, doesn't have USB-C headers whereas I think that's common on B550 boards? So if that's something you care about it's maybe worth the extra $30 change my name fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Nov 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 15:54
|
|
|
The Grumbles posted:Ok, I've sworn to myself my entire life I'd never go down this route - but I've got a really nice dark tempered glass case, and it's pushing me to go against everything I hold dear and consider some internal lighting. I don't want to go crazy on the tackiness - but a nice light strip to illuminate the case behind the dark glass might just be the ticket. Anyone got any recommendations? I'm not convinced this motherboard has any RBG headers, so I'm guessing it'll have to be molex? Corsair iCUE Lighting Node PRO RGB Lighting Controller, Multicolored https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MYDTC2C/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_fabt1_d1rVFbKMK8MMC Most of the pretty lights you see these days are corsair because their software got pretty good and they really focused on proprietary RGB hardware. Addressable RGB is what all the cool kids are playing with this these days. I don’t have any experience doing anything else with lights because after I did my research I realized that while it does cost a little more I’m not gonna end up with lights that don’t light up for that I can’t change the color of that’s for drat sure. https://youtu.be/pIyXchGHlI4
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 15:57
|
|
|
bus hustler posted:Are you near a Microcenter? It's not a huge savings, but no, there's no mega downside especially at Microcenter where you can get a 3600 + Tomahawk max or Aorus Pro for $275 Unfortunately not - I'm based in the UK so I'll have Boris' post-Brexit wonderland prices to contend with. I'm planning to carry over my RAM for now - but that will probably be my next upgrade as I know the Ryzen series benefits greatly from faster RAM speeds. I currently have HyperX FURY 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) 2133 MHz DDR4 CL14.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 16:06
|
|
|
busalover posted:So with black friday looming, I made a tentative list of what my next build should look like I think Black Friday deals aren't really going to be a thing this year (if there's a deal, it's probably been around and will be for a little while longer). Before we get too in the weeds, it might help to know what you're running, what your budget is, and what you're hoping to do. I have a couple thoughts though: The prices on the 3600 have gone crazy in the last couple weeks, and I wouldn't pay ~$300 for it. If you're near a MicroCenter you might still be able to pick one up for $160 with an eligible motherboard. If you're not, you might consider the 2600 for $149 (it's another generation older, but it's not a bad CPU). As for the GPU, I worry it might be pretty noisy with that cooler. I got the last MSI Gaming X 1650 Super at a local Best Buy just last week, and it hardly even spins up the fans with the games I've played on it so far. Here again though the prices have been really getting out of control due to us nerds buying GPUs like there's no tomorrow. At this point, it might make sense to look at the used market. I know there's a GTX 1070 up in SA-Mart, and that would hold up pretty well over the next few years. nitsuga fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Nov 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 16:20
|
|
|
So I'm thinking of pairing a 3600 with this motherboard: MSI GAMING PLUS MAX AMD B450. It's available for £65 over here which may leave enough in my budget to upgrade by 2133MHz RAM too!
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 16:42
|
|
|
AOTKPTW posted:So I'm thinking of pairing a 3600 with this motherboard: MSI GAMING PLUS MAX AMD B450. I have this combo and it's fine and worked straight out of the box, definitely spring for the faster RAM. The downsides are no USB-C connectivity, no built-in WIFI, and only one M.2 slot, but otherwise it's a good board. Oh, and I'm not sure this'll bother you or if it's a standard MSI thing, but when powered on there's a GAMING PLUS sign in red LEDs directly on the board under the PCI slots. No idea if you can turn it off or not.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 16:45
|
|
|
nitsuga posted:I think Black Friday deals aren't really going to be a thing this year (if there's a deal, it's probably been around and will be for a little while longer). Before we get too in the weeds, it might help to know what you're running, what your budget is, and what you're hoping to do. I have a couple thoughts though: It's supposed to be a budget gaming build. Initially I intended to spend € 150 each for GPU, CPU, MB, but the current prices suggest I'm not getting very far with that. The CPU currently can be had for € 209 where I live, the GPU for € 170, and the MB for € 123. The other GPU in that price range is the MSI GeForce GTX 1650 SUPER Aero ITX OC, but some comments suggested it's a bit loud, whereas the ASUS one seems to be ok? Anyway, that's what I read. € 170 for the GPU is basically my limit, and a CPU for below € 200 would be better. But I can live with those prices.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 16:54
|
|
|
change my name posted:I have this combo and it's fine and worked straight out of the box, definitely spring for the faster RAM. The downsides are no USB-C connectivity, no built-in WIFI, and only one M.2 slot, but otherwise it's a good board. Thanks for the response, I think I'll pull the trigger on this sometime this week. No USB-C and no built-in WiFi are non issues to me. The LEDs won't bother me either as it's in a windowless case.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 16:55
|
|
|
When cleaning thermal paste from the surface of a CPU, what’s the best way? Given that this is an AMD chip, with pins on the back, is it safer to clean it in the socket?
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 16:59
|
|
|
Gunder posted:When cleaning thermal paste from the surface of a CPU, what’s the best way? Given that this is an AMD chip, with pins on the back, is it safer to clean it in the socket? I've always just held them while doing this, even with the AMD ones. I guess it depends on how brave you feel. I don't see the harm in cleaning it in the socket, though, unless you're using some crazy conductive paste.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 17:00
|
|
|
Gunder posted:When cleaning thermal paste from the surface of a CPU, what’s the best way? Given that this is an AMD chip, with pins on the back, is it safer to clean it in the socket? Leave it in the socket. I bought an aftermarket cooler for the first time ever a couple weeks ago, and didn't realise it was better to leave it in the socket, and just made a huge mess by taking it out. You'll get thermal paste on your hands, it'll get near the pins, and might even get in the socket. I ended up having to spend ages painstakingly cleaning between the CPU pins.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 17:24
|
|
|
I'm going to get a new case (Gamemax F15M) soon, and will be transplanting my current setup into it - briefly: MSI Tomahawk Max B450 board Corsair 3000 DDR4 RAM (can't remember exact model, doesn't matter) AMD Ryzen 5 3600 CPU Arctic Freezer 34 eSports Duo CPU cooler MSI Gaming Trio RTX 3070 EVGA 550w G3 PSU I'm really happy with this setup as a whole, except for the current performance of the Arctic cooler. My 3600 idles at 47c and Prime95 will push it up into the mid 80s, in a room with an ambient temperature of maybe 10c at the moment. This seems to be in-line with the performance of the stock cooler. The fans run at 1200-1300 rpm at all times to maintain that idle temp, obviously spinning up a lot more under load or when the 3600 has one of its random power surges. The CPU fan is easily the loudest thing in the case, and the random revs really get on my nerves. It's bugged me since it was first installed, but my friend did that set up for me and getting the drat thing attached was a PITA, so I've never gotten round to doing anything about it, but I figured I'd take the opportunity while the mobo's out of the case to explore my options. Is it possible it was installed incorrectly? Perhaps with not enough thermal paste, or perhaps it hasn't been sufficiently screwed down? My current case has pretty reasonable ventilation and my 3070 idles between 30-35c, so it seems unlikely that the problem is in the overall air flow. I've been thinking about getting an AIO instead - probably the Arctic Liquid Freezer II 240mm or a similarly priced 240mm. I'm hoping it'll be quieter overall, also easier to install, and will leave space for future RAM expansions if I feel like it. Also this PC does travel from time to time and I get a bit antsy about this giant lump hanging off the side of my motherboard. Also it'll look neater overall, I think. However, I've gotten really mixed messages on the desirability of AIOs over decent (or even half decent) air cooling solutions from what I've read, at least unless they're 360mm beasts. So, to summarise, I think my current options are: 1) Take the current cooler off, buy decent thermal paste and re-apply, try to ensure it's mounted properly if it isn't already, and see if that's any better 2) look into getting an AIO, which will hopefully be cooler but more importantly quieter. Possibly Arctic Liquid Freezer II, or maybe a Cooler Master or even a Gamemax (they seem to be a pretty decent brand so far, the case I'm getting has gotten rave reviews for a budget case). 240mm is the official limit for the case for top mounting, although I saw a video where the guy managed to juuust about bodge an Arctic 280mm in (which I also understand is bigger than a regular 280mm) 3) Buy a different air cooler and hope I have better luck next time 4) Do nothing. Transfer everything as is and hope that the two 200mm fans on the new case will help the situation overall. Any thoughts? Overall I value quietness over super low temps, but I do also think I should be doing a lot better than 47c idle on a 3600. EDIT apologies if this would be better put in the water cooling thread Barry Foster fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Nov 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 17:27
|
|
|
Maybe it just needs to be re-pasted/re-seated, but usually installation errors produce super obvious overheating immediately, not "Prime 95 is getting it hot but not throttling it or anything." Still I would try that first since it's fast and cheap. Make sure it's seated firmly (but don't bust anything) and use a nice paste like Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut. I would expect the better 240mm AIOs like the Arctic Liquid Freezer II 240 or EK-AIO 240 to handle a 65W TDP CPU easily, and if you move the PC around is better than a huge fuckoff tower cooler for sure. A lot of <280mm AIOs underperform megatowers like the D15, but there are a lot of good reviews for those two models it looks like. I'm generally down on water cooling, but I might literally try one of those just for the hell of it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 17:34
|
|
|
Barry Foster posted:I'm going to get a new case (Gamemax F15M) soon, and will be transplanting my current setup into it - briefly: Having just gone through this journey myself - I got a v similar aftermarket cooler - the Coolermaster 212 - and it's really quiet, and the CPU has yet to go past 73c when doing high intensity stuff, idling at about 30c. So it does sound like something is up with your cooler. Is it screwed in tight enough? When I installed my aftermarket cooler, I couldn't get the PC to POST for like 2 weeks - after replacing the motherboard, the PSU, and going through everything I could think of, a friendly local computer nerd took a look at it and told me that I'd both used too much thermal paste, and the cooler wasn't screwed in nearly tight enough and wasn't mounted quite properly. You really wanna screw it in tight, even though it feels kind of nerve wracking to do so. There's also some weird quirk with the design of the 3600 where when you apply your thermal paste, doing it in a small line down the middle is most efficient for some reason? edit: On the watercooling stuff, there's some evidence out there that it's not actually always as efficient as air cooling, but it's important to remember that water cooling is rad as gently caress and AOI coolers can look incredibly cool.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 17:37
|
|
|
The amount of paste you use makes almost zero difference actually. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUWVVTY63hc
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 17:41
|
|
|
Barry Foster posted:I'm going to get a new case (Gamemax F15M) soon, and will be transplanting my current setup into it - briefly: The 3600 typically idles in the 30s with the stock cooler, ime
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 17:45
|
|
|
Is it ok to just use the "smart profile" in bios for case fans? It looks like they ramp up based on cpu temperature. I can just barely hear them while gaming (case is right next to me on the desk).
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 17:50
|
|
|
Nohearum posted:Is it ok to just use the "smart profile" in bios for case fans? It looks like they ramp up based on cpu temperature. I can just barely hear them while gaming (case is right next to me on the desk). If the fan profile is quiet & stuff isn't overheating then it's fine.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 17:52
|
|
|
sean10mm posted:The amount of paste you use makes almost zero difference actually. My pc literally wouldn't post at all because I'd used way too much thermal paste when I'd tried to affix the cooler. The dude who fixed my PC builds them for a living and all he'd done was clean up the CPU and reapply a sensible amount. Apparently it was enough to create a barrier. Unless the cooler just wasn't screwed in tight enough? I'm not saying I'm not an idiot, but also that dude brought my PC back to life and I trust him on this.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 18:26
|
|
|
The Grumbles posted:My pc literally wouldn't post at all because I'd used way too much thermal paste when I'd tried to affix the cooler. The dude who fixed my PC builds them for a living and all he'd done was clean up the CPU and reapply a sensible amount. Apparently it was enough to create a barrier. Unless the cooler just wasn't screwed in tight enough? I'm not saying I'm not an idiot, but also that dude brought my PC back to life and I trust him on this. i guess you could put so much that it doesn't allow any thermal transfer but usually in this case you put so much it squeezed out and the conductive paste is shorting something. just my experience. it also dries out and that's probably likely if there's just too much. i had a cooler slowly slowly work free of the clamps, allow some air in there, and it just dried out the paste. would cause crashing after like 20-30 min of gaming, to give you an idea of how not catastrophic it was.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 18:31
|
|
|
I like to spread the paste out with a credit card till I have a paper thin layer. Adult Legos are fun, don't rush me Steve.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 18:31
|
|
|
My new fav goop spreader are the tiny heatsinks I bought for my Accelero cooler install. They're totally flat and rigid but also really small & fine for corner work.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 18:33
|
|
|
Hi there, US-based budget gamer and web designer here. My computer is getting a bit long in the tooth and I am thinking of upgrading to a newer case. I am almost certainly bottlenecked at the CPU level, and am mainly curious if I should just upgrade the CPU or start over with a new motherboard. Are there any LGA1155 CPUs that are worth upgrading to, or would I get better performance-per-dollar value by just bringing over the GTX 1060 to a new build entirely? Here's what I'm currently rolling with: CPU: Intel Core i5-3470 3.2 GHz Quad-Core Processor ($85.00 @ Amazon) Motherboard: Asus P8Z77-M Micro ATX LGA1155 Motherboard Memory: a mishmash of 1600mHz DDR3 RAM for a total of 24GB Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB 6 GB SC GAMING Video Card (was a 660 at time of build) Case: Rosewill Line-M MicroATX Mini Tower Case ($49.99) (rather busted up at this point) Power Supply: SeaSonic M12II 430 W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply (I should probably replace this soon) Should I start with a new build, I could use some thoughts. I'm currently eyeing a Ryzen 5 3600, and am looking for a mid-range build for gaming in general with little consideration as to budget. I may be upgrading my display to 120hz/1440p in the near future, and might buy a new graphics card, like, a year or so from now. But, I need recommendations for a motherboard and case (happy to hear thoughts on PSU and RAM, too) if that's the direction we decide to go. I have some special considerations:
f#a# fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Nov 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 18:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 01:12 |
|
|
change my name posted:The 3600 typically idles in the 30s with the stock cooler, ime Eesh, then something is definitely hosed up here, then Honestly, I'm breaking towards just getting the Arctic 240mm AIO anyway, because it's neat (in both senses of the word), and it'll be something different. I'm not really in this for hyper cooled OC or whatever, so a few degrees difference between varying methods and models isn't really my priority. Having something quiet and at least cooler than whatever the heck's going on with the current situation would be good, and not having this hump hanging off my mobo and taking it on car journeys is probably preferable Thanks to everyone so far for your contributions, though, you've been really helpful! Barry Foster fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Nov 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 18:57
|
|