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"Replacing body parts with machines is not something a normal person does" is potentially true, and can take you to an interesting place if you want to explore the potentially addictive nature of making yourself more powerful by stuffing cyberware in your body. But as an explanation for losing "humanity" points it opens up a philosophical can of worms about what "normal" really means, which is a clumsy explanation for what ultimately seems more like a game balancing mechanic.
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Dec 3, 2020 02:12
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I see the 'generally' there, but between the armchair diagnosis of DID and having gone under the knife to deal with a perfectly good organ myself... no. gently caress that.
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Dec 3, 2020 02:18
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Cooked Auto posted:Yeah I think image could've been done a lot better. It also feels like it's a kind of awkward photoshop thrown together in a hurry towards the end of production. There's just something awkward about it and I think I've seen the head part before elsewhere but I could be wrong. The hat looks really out of place and is what my eye keeps coming back to.
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Dec 3, 2020 02:23
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Cooked Auto posted:Yeah I think image could've been done a lot better. It also feels like it's a kind of awkward photoshop thrown together in a hurry towards the end of production. There's just something awkward about it and I think I've seen the head part before elsewhere but I could be wrong. The art throughout the book (what I've read is it at least) has been giving me that feeling. Painted-over photobashes everywhere, with more attention paid to matching the components than to making it look cohesive and good. But that's my take, ymmv.
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Dec 3, 2020 02:47
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mellonbread posted:"Replacing body parts with machines is not something a normal person does" is potentially true, and can take you to an interesting place if you want to explore the potentially addictive nature of making yourself more powerful by stuffing cyberware in your body. But as an explanation for losing "humanity" points it opens up a philosophical can of worms about what "normal" really means, which is a clumsy explanation for what ultimately seems more like a game balancing mechanic. If you take the statement as true you're saying some really nasty stuff about people with pacemakers, insulin pumps, artificial limbs and a whole lot of other stuff.
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Dec 3, 2020 02:48
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Midjack posted:The hat looks really out of place and is what my eye keeps coming back to. Yeah, his beanie is a bit iffy. I'll give you that. SkyeAuroline posted:The art throughout the book (what I've read is it at least) has been giving me that feeling. Painted-over photobashes everywhere, with more attention paid to matching the components than to making it look cohesive and good. At least it's not photoes of action figures with photoshop filters over them. v  v
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Dec 3, 2020 02:49
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Went to check comics today - Marneus Calgar #3 is NEXT week for anyone playing at home. Would there be demand for me to read some D&D comics or anything like that so I can be a little more active in here than dunking on Calgary Jack once a month? Any requests?
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Dec 3, 2020 02:51
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Mors Rattus posted:If you take the statement as true you're saying some really nasty stuff about people with pacemakers, insulin pumps, artificial limbs and a whole lot of other stuff.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:02
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Cooked Auto posted:
Oh yeah, I'm not defending that stuff at all, don't get me wrong. Though I do have to ask - I've seen all of the Eve Ventrue illustrations in the book before I ever opened it, and never in a ttrpg context. They're not commissioned for RED, are they? If so it's been in the works longer than I thought.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:03
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TK_Nyarlathotep posted:Went to check comics today - Marneus Calgar #3 is NEXT week for anyone playing at home. Would there be demand for me to read some D&D comics or anything like that so I can be a little more active in here than dunking on Calgary Jack once a month? Any requests? Don't read a D&D comic unless it's the one John Rogers did.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:03
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Yeah I was about to say, the only D&D comic you should read is Fel's Five and nothing else.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:08
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Mors Rattus posted:If you take the statement as true you're saying some really nasty stuff about people with pacemakers, insulin pumps, artificial limbs and a whole lot of other stuff. Thus, getting a cyber-hand because you got in a motorcycle accident does not cost you Empathy because a cyber-hand is the 20XX equivalent of a medical prosthetic. People may react poorly to it but you got it as a medical treatment. Different context. Similarly, fashionware is just decorative poo poo and at worst you're left with unusually annoying lovely tattoos: if you chose poorly in getting these implants, it's because of the same thing that has led people to get lovely tattoos. What is limiting if obviously baked into their assumptions is the idea that these emotional/psychological stress injuries would necessarily all go down a royal road towards being an rear end in a top hat and eventually a Boomer. What would make more sense is that heavily augmented people are specifically targeted by law enforcement if not heavily shielded by some other form of privilege.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:09
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Social stigma is definitely a more logical approach to the downsides of cyberaugmentation. Eclipse Phase tries to do that - being a roboman is largely superior from a mechanical perspective, it makes you stronger and tougher and grants immunity to a lot of the game's nastier save or die effects like toxins and diseases - but if you do it, people will look at you funny, because old prejudices die hard. (You can technically get around this by just slapping a cheap skin mask over the robot body so that nobody knows, though it's not a possibility that the setting fiction really addresses). But social stigma is something that players can ignore or negate, if they accumulate enough resources or deliberately live a lifestyle that doesn't require them to care about what the squares think. Whereas my guess is the Cyberpunk devs were looking for a hard cap on the amount of robot poo poo the player could have.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:19
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I think there's some interesting commentary to be found in how most of the cyberware you're going to be going for as a player is the kind that's about turning yourself into a machine for killing, which is reflected in how your character is degraded on the moral/psychological level.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:39
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Just make a narrative stat called 'future shock' instead of cyberpsychosis. Make it go up and down when weird poo poo happens to you or you do weird poo poo to yourself or others. Perfectly in genre, doesn't take a philosophical stance, and can be used for all kinds of things and not just cybernetics.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:46
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Steal the UA stress meters whooesale.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:48
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I think the issue is that Cyberpunk (and other cyberpunk RPGs like Shadowrun) carry the baggage from 80s concepts of the dehumanization of the body, and science fiction/society in general have moved on from that. Like, the way the human body is treated in The Matrix is still technologically dehumanizing, but not in the same way. The way Altered Carbon handles the treatment of the body as a tool versus the human connection of body to self. Hell, even Questionable Content had a storyline about a resleeved AI that feels something similar to body dimorphism. I feel like it's mostly because as a society I think we've decided the answer to 'Would you install permanent mirror shade Google Glasses' is 'Yes, of course', but the larger acceptance of the Disability community probably helped change feelings too.
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Dec 3, 2020 04:30
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The devs have said that full-body conversions will be coming in a future book, which means even this half-assed attempt at balance is going to get tossed in short order. At last year's Gen Con, Mike Pondsmith was talking about how "Humanity" was being retooled to represent the objectification of oneself in order to do a particular job or task better, and the resulting dehumanization, and not just some weird sort of psychosis stemming from being "inhuman." How we got from that to this is a pretty interesting question, and it feels to me like another point in favour of the theory that R.Talsorian Games was running out of time in developing Cyberpunk RED and ended up rushing things near the end. Either that or they just decided to backslide because...??? There are a lot of things he was talking about, in fact, that are nowhere to be seen at all in the Cyberpunk RED that we actually got.
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Dec 3, 2020 04:50
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Empathy and Essence(?) exist in part to put a limit on how much cyberware a character can sport. So just take all the psychology out of it and say there's a physiological limit to how many robot parts a human body can support.
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Dec 3, 2020 04:51
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PeterWeller posted:Empathy and Essence(?) exist in part to put a limit on how much cyberware a character can sport. So just take all the psychology out of it and say there's a physiological limit to how many robot parts a human body can support. Each robopiece comes with its own DRM and eventually the different systems start fighting each other over who's authorised.
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Dec 3, 2020 05:13
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PeterWeller posted:So just take all the psychology out of it and say there's a physiological limit to how many robot parts a human body can support. There's also the HWI route that applies just fine here - sure, get cybered up! Can you afford the monthly payments to the corp that's got you in a "rent-to-own" program (these suck irl, by the way)? Can you find and afford antirejection drugs and the specialty diet that "fuels" them better, or the pile of batteries to do it without that method? What socioeconomic effects does it carry and how does that weigh on you? But that isn't as workable if you don't hold an "all good cyberpunk is anticapitalist" mindset like I do, and I think Mike and the gang have left that behind partially.
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Dec 3, 2020 05:15
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SkyeAuroline posted:The art throughout the book (what I've read is it at least) has been giving me that feeling. Painted-over photobashes everywhere, with more attention paid to matching the components than to making it look cohesive and good. That's a big problem I have with Cyberpunk RED: the art is really inconsistent. There's a lot of art that got borrowed from concept art from CD Projekt Red's game, which is why there's a lot of photobashes everywhere, because concept artist do that to get ideas out and presentable quickly for the art director, marketing, whoever. And there's fill-in art taken from other sources. For as much poo poo as Cyberpunk V3.0 gets, at least Dollpunk was a consistent look for that book. Tibalt posted:I think the issue is that Cyberpunk (and other cyberpunk RPGs like Shadowrun) carry the baggage from 80s concepts of the dehumanization of the body, and science fiction/society in general have moved on from that. Like, the way the human body is treated in The Matrix is still technologically dehumanizing, but not in the same way. The way Altered Carbon handles the treatment of the body as a tool versus the human connection of body to self. Hell, even Questionable Content had a storyline about a resleeved AI that feels something similar to body dimorphism. My favorite bit is when CP2020 introduced full-body cyborgs, because R. Talsorian Games were anime nerds and every cyberpunk anime and manga at the time like Appleseed, Ghost In The Shell, or Battle Angel Alita, featured some degree of full-body cyborgs as commonplace. They had to largely retcon their own Humanity mechanics to make them playable. Also, looking that they offer 1500eb for selling yourself out for cyber is just loving lol. The going rate should be six million dollars, after all. Pussy Cartel posted:The devs have said that full-body conversions will be coming in a future book, which means even this half-assed attempt at balance is going to get tossed in short order. I was turned on to a conversation on Twitter about Humanity in Cyberpunk RED before I got the book and Cyberpunk RED basically combined Humanity Cost with Sanity checks from Call Of Cthulhu. So, not only does replacing your body with augmentations affect it, but so does witnessing horrific events. It looked badly implemented. SkyeAuroline posted:There's also the HWI route that applies just fine here - sure, get cybered up! Can you afford the monthly payments to the corp that's got you in a "rent-to-own" program (these suck irl, by the way)? Can you find and afford antirejection drugs and the specialty diet that "fuels" them better, or the pile of batteries to do it without that method? What socioeconomic effects does it carry and how does that weigh on you? I just gotta say that Hard Wired Island needs to come out soon to wash the bad taste of Cyberpunk RED from my mouth. Young Freud fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Dec 3, 2020 |
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Dec 3, 2020 05:15
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PeterWeller posted:Empathy and Essence(?) exist in part to put a limit on how much cyberware a character can sport. So just take all the psychology out of it and say there's a physiological limit to how many robot parts a human body can support. Essence is its own thing. Your Essence is an organ that you need in working order to live, even though it's nonphysical.
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Dec 3, 2020 05:19
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PeterWeller posted:Empathy and Essence(?) exist in part to put a limit on how much cyberware a character can sport. So just take all the psychology out of it and say there's a physiological limit to how many robot parts a human body can support. Getting TRPG designers (or players) to accept a mechanic without providing (or having them make up) pages of breathless exposition on the lore implications is kind of a big ask.
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Dec 3, 2020 05:27
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Young Freud posted:That's a big problem I have with Cyberpunk RED: the art is really inconsistent. There's a lot of art that got borrowed from concept art from CD Projekt Red's game, which is why there's a lot of photobashes everywhere, because concept artist do that to get ideas out and presentable quickly for the art director, marketing, whoever. And there's fill-in art taken from other sources. For as much poo poo as Cyberpunk V3.0 gets, at least Dollpunk was a consistent look for that book. From what the devs were saying on Discord, they are in fact bringing back full-body cyborgs, which means their new Humanity rules are going to get broken to gently caress all over again in short order. And yes, Cyberpunk RED makes the really questionable choice of hitting characters with Humanity costs for suffering or witnessing traumatic events. I was going to cover that bit of nonsense with the rest of the medical chapter.
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Dec 3, 2020 05:31
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I don't get why they didn't just did away with the system in favour of an explanation that some people have a bad psychological reactions to cybernetics and the media blew it completely out of proportion? It happened to weed and absinth and even psychotherapy and many other basically harmless things that someone has a vast interest in demonizing. This takes care of negative popular outlook on conspicuous cybernetics and gives authoritarian police forces an excuse to maintain heavily armed squads to keep all the NIMBY gated community types satisfied. If balancing is required it can be done with restricted gear and of course costs, even if I could legally buy a full battle tank how will I pay for one?
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Dec 3, 2020 06:57
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By popular demand posted:I don't get why they didn't just did away with the system in favour of an explanation that some people have a bad psychological reactions to cybernetics and the media blew it completely out of proportion? It happened to weed and absinth and even psychotherapy and many other basically harmless things that someone has a vast interest in demonizing. Again, Hard Wired Island pulls something similar: "Cyberpsychosis" is an ever-present illusionary "disease" that's hyped up by the corporations and pseudo-psychologists as an excuse to get rid of people who got augmentation to help with their personal productivity after they are no longer profitable and become a liability to the company. "Oh, Mx. Smith, you failed the company's annual psychological exam. Because we believe you to be a risk to your co-workers, we're going to terminate your employment and escort you from the premise. Do not hesitate or we'll have to call the cyberpsycho squad to deal with you."
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Dec 3, 2020 07:16
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SkyeAuroline posted:There's also the HWI route that applies just fine here - sure, get cybered up! Can you afford the monthly payments to the corp that's got you in a "rent-to-own" program (these suck irl, by the way)? Can you find and afford antirejection drugs and the specialty diet that "fuels" them better, or the pile of batteries to do it without that method? What socioeconomic effects does it carry and how does that weigh on you? Yeah, that's a good route too. I don't even think you need to have a particularly anticapitalist mindset to implement upkeep costs for cybeware. megane posted:Getting TRPG designers (or players) to accept a mechanic without providing (or having them make up) pages of breathless exposition on the lore implications is kind of a big ask. Oh you can still write reams of fluff about how too many cybernetic implements leads to cascading super-AIDS or terminal techno-tumors or whatever. And I'm sure there are some odious implications of this that I'm not considering, but at least you're not making odious implications about mental health, prosthetics, and trans persons. (Granted, it seems that CP-R has explicitly rejected those last two.)
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Dec 3, 2020 19:31
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Just say it’s driver conflicts. Everything is made by a different company and there’s no interoperability support. We’ve all plugged in a new video card only to have the printer stop working, I could easily believe when you get a new cyber eye suddenly your left hand freezes up flipping the bird.
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Dec 3, 2020 19:34
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“You have a stat called Capacity which is an abstraction representing how many cool new powers you can have, for reasons fo game balance. There’s just not enough room in the body to keep doing all the things bodies need to do and also give you infinity powers.”
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Dec 3, 2020 20:35
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Oh nice I only just noticed the new thread title.
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Dec 3, 2020 20:40
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Mors Rattus posted:If you take the statement as true you're saying some really nasty stuff about people with pacemakers, insulin pumps, artificial limbs and a whole lot of other stuff. Those are all medical necessities. Being to punch through a wall, however...
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Dec 3, 2020 21:26
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SkyeAuroline posted:There's also the HWI route that applies just fine here - sure, get cybered up! Can you afford the monthly payments to the corp that's got you in a "rent-to-own" program (these suck irl, by the way)? Can you find and afford antirejection drugs and the specialty diet that "fuels" them better, or the pile of batteries to do it without that method? What socioeconomic effects does it carry and how does that weigh on you? This also requires strict out of combat rules for recovery, tracking time, and so on, which not all games like.
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Dec 3, 2020 21:31
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JcDent posted:This also requires strict out of combat rules for recovery, tracking time, and so on, which not all games like. There is nothing in there that requires strict ruling at all, what?
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Dec 3, 2020 21:39
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JcDent posted:This also requires strict out of combat rules for recovery, tracking time, and so on, which not all games like. For HWI (at least as of the Kickstarter preview), it was handled pretty minimally & effectively; HWI uses a Burden score that summarizes your status independent od discretionary money, 0-4 (PbtA, so it's a dice modifier); getting augmented increments your score an extra point to represent the upkeep, medical care, etc. It works for lighter games to not have a hefty system. How well an abstracted system transfers to something like RED with its concrete finances, or could be created for it, is up in the air.
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Dec 3, 2020 21:43
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JcDent posted:Those are all medical necessities. Being to punch through a wall, however... It's a thin line between medical necessity and augmentation. For instance, I could easily screw on some brass knuckles onto a prosthetic arm or a procedure that alleviates lower spinal paralysis by "rerouting" nerve impulses through fiber optics or wirelessly could be modded to provide superhuman reflexes and performed on a healthy specimen. I'm recalling that Johnny's mnemonic implant in the film adaptation of Johnny Mnemonic is identify as an implant that treats dyslexia, so who knows if it's a repurposed implant or a disguised one.
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Dec 3, 2020 22:11
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My point is more to the definition of “normal” and excluding people with medically necessary implants from it. Those people are normal. It is entirely normal to require this kind of aid. But, in the same vein - the difference between an insulin pump and a combat drug injection system in this setting is probably entirely what the thing is filled with.
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Dec 3, 2020 22:13
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I would absolutely pack myself full of all kinds of augmentations if I had the chance just for fun, but who knows, maybe I'm already a cyberpsycho! I figure if I need modern science and technology just to keep myself functioning well and feeling human in the first place, why not go farther? Nature's boring!
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Dec 3, 2020 23:10
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Are we allowed to review fan content in this thread? I want to talk about Eclipse Phase, but the only module I've actually played and liked is Think Before Asking.
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Dec 3, 2020 23:11
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mellonbread posted:Are we allowed to review fan content in this thread? I want to talk about Eclipse Phase, but the only module I've actually played and liked is Think Before Asking. I reviewed an unofficial WHFRP Elf Book because it was hilariously terrible and AdEva was entirely an amateur production, I think you're good.
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Dec 3, 2020 23:15
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