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Motronic posted:Completely agreed. Something is very wrong to the point where I wouldn't want that in my house. I'm a pro at outlets now (thanks to you guys, I did 56 of them at the old house, all properly pig tailed as I learned here) so I will do that first. I think I even have a few left over from the old house. All the breakers appear to be the same type.
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Dec 6, 2020 16:30
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Rhyno posted:I'm a pro at outlets now (thanks to you guys, I did 56 of them at the old house, all properly pig tailed as I learned here) so I will do that first. I think I even have a few left over from the old house. All the breakers appear to be the same type. If so, you can swap the breakers from the one that just has the lamp (that you know will run the treadmill, even over extension cord) to the garage and just call it a day.
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Dec 6, 2020 18:40
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:If so, you can swap the breakers from the one that just has the lamp (that you know will run the treadmill, even over extension cord) to the garage and just call it a day. Shouldn't I put a new one in just to do it properly?
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Dec 6, 2020 18:47
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Rhyno posted:Shouldn't I put a new one in just to do it properly? Sure, but this gets you running today. You can label it so you know it's suspect and then replace it at your leisure. You also can replace it with a regular breaker not a specialty high inrush breaker.
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Dec 6, 2020 18:50
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My wife went to use an outlet in the basement and it wasn’t working. Seeing as I had touched that circuit a couple of months ago it was pretty easy to find the problem. Due to some basement leak remediation I had to abandon an outlet that was embedded in the concrete wall so I pulled all the wire out of the conduit. Looped it up nice and neat with velcro, attached it to the ceiling joist above the drop tile, tied it all together inside of an old work box, and put on a blank cover. Turns out I did a lovely job of twisting the hot wires together and they popped apart out of the wire nut. Good thing it was a plastic box or that could have been a nasty surprise! devmd01 fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Dec 6, 2020 |
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Dec 6, 2020 19:34
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H110Hawk posted:Sure, but this gets you running today. You can label it so you know it's suspect and then replace it at your leisure. You also can replace it with a regular breaker not a specialty high inrush breaker. Well, my wife's sister is here so I'm not going to turn the power off today. I pass a Menards on the way to and from work so I will stop and grab a new breaker and outlet on my way home in the morning. I'll keep you guys updated on what works or doesn't and how severe my burns are.
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Dec 6, 2020 20:14
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devmd01 posted:Turns out I did a lovely job of twisting the hot wires together and they popped apart out of the wire nut. Good thing it was a plastic box or that could have been a nasty surprise! That's exactly why metal boxes must be grounded if it contains conductors that are spliced or terminated inside that box. If you're doing a splice and you have wire to spare, always make sure you get a few twists of the insulated potion of the wire in addition to the bare copper twists. Done correctly, the nut is just icing on the cake of a really solid physical connection.
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Dec 6, 2020 21:05
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Oh I know, I was just in a hurry to get it done before the contractors arrived. Good, cheap, fast, pick two, etc.
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Dec 6, 2020 21:12
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B-Nasty posted:That's exactly why metal boxes must be grounded if it contains conductors that are spliced or terminated inside that box. Every splice made with wire nuts should have at least 2 twists outside the nut, the wire nut isn't there to make the electrical connection, it's there to twist the wires together, hold them in place, and insulate them. With bigger wires like #10 pre-twisting is a good idea, they tend to bulge out wirenuts if you use them to twist the wires. Also I can't recommend the Ideal 341 enough, it's the usual tan one you see at the big box stores, it has a wire capacity that spans 90% of the range of yellow and red wire nuts. And best of all? If you take the bit out of your 10-in-1 or whatever screwdriver, the hexagonal cross section of the nut lets you drive it on with your screwdriver instead of the little wings.
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Dec 6, 2020 21:15
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Elviscat posted:And best of all? If you take the bit out of your 10-in-1 or whatever screwdriver, the hexagonal cross section of the nut lets you drive it on with your screwdriver instead of the little wings. Mr fancy here springing for the nuts with wings.
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Dec 6, 2020 21:22
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On that subject, last time I did some wiring it involved 1 particular junction box with 3 240v circuits in a mix of #10 and #12 and I had a hell of a time corralling all the grounds into (2)blue nuts and decided maybe it was time to start using Wago's. Wago has a lot of different series and I recall some of them being talked down on, the 221 lever series are some of the good ones though right? I just ordered a bunch of the #10 and #12 ones off Amazon.
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Dec 6, 2020 22:20
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Elviscat posted:And best of all? If you take the bit out of your 10-in-1 or whatever screwdriver, the hexagonal cross section of the nut lets you drive it on with your screwdriver instead of the little wings.  I like your idea better
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Dec 6, 2020 23:54
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Not Wolverine posted:
I saw this ad the other day and yikes that's aggressive marketing 
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Dec 7, 2020 00:55
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Would go well with this torque indicating device.meatpimp posted:Even better, they are litterally called "Squirters"
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Dec 7, 2020 01:01
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You fine folks might appreciate this. https://twitter.com/jeremyzorek/status/1335472243648950272?s=20
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Dec 7, 2020 19:18
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BonerGhost posted:You fine folks might appreciate this. Ahh, the 'ol lineman killer.
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Dec 7, 2020 19:30
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Anyone got one for 240v?
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Dec 7, 2020 22:42
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SpartanIvy posted:Anyone got one for 240v? Just twist the two prongs sideways.
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Dec 7, 2020 23:05
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You use two, one plugged into an outlet on each leg of the service for 240, duh.
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Dec 7, 2020 23:15
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Okay so I put in the new outlet and the treadmill still trips it. Everything I can find about this is saying the gfci is the cause, the manual even says not to plug into one. So I would like to learn how to run a dedicated circuit and receptacle for the treadmill.
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Dec 8, 2020 05:15
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Wait, was the treadmill tripping the GFI outlet and not the breaker this whole time?
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Dec 8, 2020 06:33
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Anyways, to run a dedicated circuit, brief outline: -You will likely do drywall damage, I think you're prepared for that. -you need access to the top or bottom of your panel -you need access to the top or bottom of the wall you want the outlet in -you need; -a threaded two-screw or plastic romex protector -a single gang "old work" box, plastic with the ears is preferable -an appropriate length of 12/2 NM-B W/G cable (Romex) -An outlet a single NEMA 5-20 is preferable for your application -A Square-D Homeline 20 Amp single pole breaker -drills and saws and poo poo -figure out your path to pull wire from the panel to the outlet, likely through a crawlspace or attic. -pull that wire. -hook it up. -an easy but ugly as poo poo way to do it is to wrap 1/2" PVC conduit around your house from panel to outlet. You said that it was on the garage circuit, are the treadmill and panel both in the garage? If so it becomes really easy, and the answer becomes surface-mount EMT. Feel free to PM me your phone number, if you text me pictures and questions I can give you real-time response and poo poo that might make it easier. Good Luck!
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Dec 8, 2020 06:52
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Elviscat posted:Wait, was the treadmill tripping the GFI outlet and not the breaker this whole time? If it was just tripping the GFI, there may be another solution.
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Dec 8, 2020 06:57
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No, it tripped the breaker. I have a new breaker here as well but I couldn't shut off the main today as my wife works from home.
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Dec 8, 2020 07:08
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Rhyno posted:No, it tripped the breaker. I have a new breaker here as well but I couldn't shut off the main today as my wife works from home. If it's not tripping the GFCI the GFCI isn't the problem. (yes, I guess)
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Dec 8, 2020 15:29
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Motronic posted:If it's not tripping the GFCI the GFCI isn't the problem. (yes, I guess) Okay, not on my phone so this will be easier Here is the garage layout  I''m just going to number the events. 1) Fridge is plugged into Outlet 1. I plug in treadmill and turn it on, Outlet 1 trips, breaker trips. 2) I unplug fridge. Start treadmill. Breaker trips. 3) Leaving fridge unplugged, I plug treadmill into O2. Both Outlets trip. 4) I plug treadmill into a outlet inside the house, no trips. 5) I replace O1. Plug in treadmill to O1. Start treadmill, O2 trips. No breaker trip. What am I loving up here.
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Dec 8, 2020 15:45
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Your panel has an inspection sticker dated in 2000, is it a reasonable assumption that all these outlets are 20 years old too? Some googling says that that is around the expected lifespan of a GFCI, depending on use & environment. Maybe both the outlets were bad? Plus the more a breaker trips, the faster it wears out, so it might be bad too.
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Dec 8, 2020 15:57
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It is possible the breaker only tripped the very first time and I just mindlessly flipped it back and forth thinking it had tripped a second time. I have another new outlet here so I will swap that in and see what happens. In the end, the fridge and the treadmill live in the garage so I need an option to power both of them long term.
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Dec 8, 2020 16:04
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Rhyno posted:Okay, not on my phone so this will be easier OK so wait: when you say "both outlets trip," does this mean that both the outlets are GFCI? Just as an aside, motor speed controllers generate a ton noise that's probably being sent to ground. This will look like a ground fault to a GFCI. Meaning, it will probably never, ever run on a GFCI. I don't think that this is your core issue, but it's one of them. Rhyno posted:In the end, the fridge and the treadmill live in the garage so I need an option to power both of them long term. Garage outlets need to be GFCI protected. So... that might actually be your core issue.
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Dec 8, 2020 16:11
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Yes, both are GFCI and I'm aware garage outlets are required to be GFCI. So what are my options here? The plan is to turn half the garage into the home gym, there's no other place in the house for it. Edit: I mean, it's my house and we're not going to be selling it any time soon, I can just install a new receptacle and put a standard outlet in right? Rhyno fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Dec 8, 2020 |
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Dec 8, 2020 16:14
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When you replaced O1 was it with a new GFCI or a new regular outlet? If a new GFCI isn't tripping your problem might have been worn out ones. Plus if wired correctly you only need one GFCI to protect both outlets, so I'd pull both and wire up a new GFCI and a new regular TR outlet on that circuit and see if you still get breaker trips.
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Dec 8, 2020 17:16
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Rhyno posted:Yes, both are GFCI and I'm aware garage outlets are required to be GFCI. So what are my options here? The plan is to turn half the garage into the home gym, there's no other place in the house for it. So I'm not an electrician, but I cannot think of any way to prevent the GFCI from tripping that would be safe, and I don't know what (if any) exceptions would allow you to put a non-GFCI receptacle in your garage. The issue with the GFCI is that it cannot differentiate between a short to ground and noise from an electronic motor controller. There are ways you can "hide" the noise from the motor controller, but those same methods would also mask an actual ground fault, so the end result is that you could still electrocute yourself. I did some googling and it looks like some treadmills require a surge suppressor at the point of use, which can also put noise to ground. Yours might just have one built in. But the problem here is whether the noise is caused by the motor controller or a surge suppressor, the treadmill is quite simply not compatible with a GFCI. Google says this is an extremely common problem across manufacturers, so I think you're SOL. Rhyno posted:Edit: I mean, it's my house and we're not going to be selling it any time soon, I can just install a new receptacle and put a standard outlet in right? So to be sure, installing a standard outlet is exactly what you would do regardless, but probably not in the way you're thinking. The way your garage SHOULD be wired is such that O2 has the GFCI on it, and all the other outlets are standard outlets "downstream" of O2. If they're wired correctly, they'd all be protected by the GFCI on O2. So with that, O1 probably shouldn't have a GFCI on it; it should be a standard outlet that is already protected by O2. The way you describe both tripping makes me think that this is the case, but I wouldn't make that assumption until an actual electrician chimes in. But again, ultimately any receptacle in the garage must have GFCI protection, whether it's an actual GFCI or whether it's supplied by a GFCI. Functionally this means that you can't have your treadmill in the garage. DaveSauce fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Dec 8, 2020 |
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Dec 8, 2020 17:20
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Both outlets are GFCI and I replaced it with a new GFCI. So GFCI are required in garages why exactly? Moisture? AT the old house (20 years older) we had 3 GFCI outlets in the entire house and exactly none in the garage. I mean, I will literally install a pass-through and run an extension cord into the house if I have to.
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Dec 8, 2020 17:26
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DaveSauce posted:So I'm not an electrician, but I cannot think of any way to prevent the GFCI from tripping that would be safe, and I don't know what (if any) exceptions would allow you to put a non-GFCI receptacle in your garage. You could always rewire the motor to run on 220 and put in a new 6-20R  Edit: Rhyno posted:Both outlets are GFCI and I replaced it with a new GFCI. I think garages are now sort of categorized as 'outdoors' from an electrical perspective so yeah, water plus all the stuff people might plug into an outdoor outlet like electrical yard tools, gas engines with electrical starts, etc. and all of it running on beaten up old extension cords. I will say I rewired my garage/woodshop last year with a new panel with 100% CAFCI breakers and my dust collector, table saw, band saw, air compressor, etc. have never caused a trip. If your new GFCI didn't trip where your old one did, try pulling the other old one completely and trying with just the new one on that circuit. Nevets fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Dec 8, 2020 |
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Dec 8, 2020 17:31
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Rhyno posted:Both outlets are GFCI on the same circuit?
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Dec 8, 2020 17:31
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kecske posted:on the same circuit? Yes. Both garage outlets and all 4 outdoor outlets run on the same circuit.
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Dec 8, 2020 17:34
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Make sure both GFCIs only have conductors on their LINE terminals (unless the outdoor receptacles are non-GFCI in which case the conductor feeding the outdoor receptacles needs to be on the LOAD terminal of the GFCI that feeds them). This:  vs:  Also, you may need to open everything up and make sure a ground isn't touching a neutral somewhere. If enough neutral current finds this alternate path, the GFCI will do it's job and trip. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Dec 8, 2020 |
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Dec 8, 2020 17:47
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Elem7 posted:On that subject, last time I did some wiring it involved 1 particular junction box with 3 240v circuits in a mix of #10 and #12 and I had a hell of a time corralling all the grounds into (2)blue nuts and decided maybe it was time to start using Wago's. yeah the 221s are the thing to have, I just go ahead and get always the 3-hole version
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Dec 8, 2020 18:21
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Rhyno posted:Both outlets are GFCI and I replaced it with a new GFCI. The reality is the whole world is going to 100% AFCI+GFCI on all outlets. It prevents death by fire and electrocution respectively. Modern residential workloads have been designed knowing this is coming for a long time, think 20+ years. Soft start (which is basically just a monster capacitor inline, slow ramping speeds of inverter-driven motors, or both) is nice to have for a lot of reasons, one of them is to stop your whole house from dimming whenever a motor load turns on. It's easier on the grid, it's easier on generators, it's easier on batteries, it's easier on the motors themselves, it's easier on the components that control them - notably relays/contactors. Less monster-spark as the relay snaps shut to energize, and for variable speed motors, less on the "open" too if the machine intelligently ramps down. (e-stop and similar needs-to-stop-energizing systems remain hard on everything, think releasing the trigger on your circular saw. It's not an estop because it doesn't also stop the blade, but you need to immediately not be adding power to the cutting wheel.)
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Dec 8, 2020 18:28
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I've heard nothing but horror stories about AFCIs. Apparently they don't play well with florescent lights and some light switches.H110Hawk posted:Soft start (which is basically just a monster capacitor inline, slow ramping speeds of inverter-driven motors, or both) is nice to have for a lot of reasons, one of them is to stop your whole house from dimming whenever a motor load turns on. It's easier on the grid, it's easier on generators, it's easier on batteries, it's easier on the motors themselves, it's easier on the components that control them - notably relays/contactors. Less monster-spark as the relay snaps shut to energize, and for variable speed motors, less on the "open" too if the machine intelligently ramps down. BLDCs are becoming so cheap and prevalent that this problem was going to go away regardless. there will always probably be little DC brushed motors doing little stuff, but they don't matter as far as the grid is concerned. Any big motor that isnt' already BLDC or at least a synchronous AC with a VFD (which VFDs handle all the starting and stopping automatically) then they're just leaving a lot of money on the table at this point - retrofits notwithstanding. I think the days of "big honkin motors," as one of professors used to say, are gone. My new washing machine is BLDC, and it wasn't much more expensive than the the cheapos. Honestly at this point its almost easier to just design for them since you can cut out a lot of bigger and more expensive components. Everything is already full of microcontrollers that can interface with them no problem. Cosmik Debris fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Dec 8, 2020 |
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Dec 8, 2020 18:53
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