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BalloonFish posted:The diagonal scantlings allowed the US heavy frigates to be slightly longer than a conventional 90-gun two-decker but without (obviously) the extra weight or the extra beam needed to provide stability due to the higher centre of gravity. This allowed them to keep the traditional 'frigate-built' proportions of a long waterline and a narrow underwater hull section which made them both seaworthy and fast. Conventional construction limited a single-deck ship to about 140ft on the waterline with 32, maybe 36 guns. Multi-deck ships could be longer because the extra decks gave the hull relatively more strength - a two-decker could be about 180ft and a three-decker about 220ft. The heavy frigates were 175ft on the waterline and 200ft overall. Waterline length determines a ship's maximum speed and the heavy frigates' scantlings and heavy planking gave them both the length and displacement not far off that of a seventy-four, but with the slimmer hull, lower freeboard and lower centre of gravity of a frigate, which allowed them to carry more sail than a normal frigate and make best use of the added power. Thanks, this is really interesting stuff for a Patrick O'Brian fan.
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Dec 7, 2020 19:44
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So many posts about length and seamen and hogging and no one is gonna say anything? We're just leaving that money on the table?
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Dec 7, 2020 19:53
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Xiahou Dun posted:So many posts about length and seamen and hogging and no one is gonna say anything? The Navy is all about rum, sodomy, and the lash. And no one drinks rum anymore.
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Dec 7, 2020 19:56
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Cythereal posted:The Navy is all about rum, sodomy, and the lash. And no one drinks rum anymore. All you can get now is a cup of Joe. (Not sure this is really the origin of the phrase though.)
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Dec 7, 2020 20:05
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If you all want an accessible and decent book on those check out “Seven Frigates.” A good chunk of it is about the way they came about and were built. It’s solid if you don’t have background in naval history and want something readable.
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Dec 7, 2020 20:13
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Did the flaring bits on the classic stalhelm serve a practical purpose that the FJ helmet suffered from losing?
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Dec 7, 2020 20:15
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Did the flaring bits on the classic stalhelm serve a practical purpose that the FJ helmet suffered from losing? Supposedly it was to provide better protection for the neck area, and was modeled after the medieval sallet. I say "supposedly" because I'm not sure if it was actually any more effective at preventing neck injuries than a brodie or adrian.
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Dec 7, 2020 20:19
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FWIW even the Nazis were looking to revise it, as iconic as it was and as much as we associate it with them today. They had a m1945 Stahlhelm that never entered production which, unchanged, was eventually produced by the DDR as their standard helmet. edit: realized I need to clarify that that dude's an East German soldier. They, uh, reused a lot of the old Wehrmacht look, especially early on. I've read that the flared sides have basically the same idea as the flared base (heheh) on the WW1-WW2 Stahlhelm, with the benefit of whatever combat experiences or ease-of-manufacturing* changes they came up with over the previous 30 years. *the Stahlhelm was hideously crazy to make. Something like a dozen major stamping stages and the dies had to be heated for reasons involving the gauge of steel they used or something. Either way, it was a gently caress ton more difficult to make one than a pot helmet or a brodie by the time you hit WW2.
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Dec 7, 2020 20:25
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Cyrano4747 posted:If you all want an accessible and decent book on those check out “Seven Frigates.” A good chunk of it is about the way they came about and were built. It’s solid if you don’t have background in naval history and want something readable. "Six Frigates?" Like John Dolan says, war is about people, not hardware. This book tells you the story about the US Navy, kooky doctirnal ideas from a kooks who wanted to translate militias into the ocean, sourcing enormous swamp oaks with the specific curves needed for the prow of a ship, the barbary coast expedition, dueling and its effects on the early officer corps... real good Greg12 fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Dec 7, 2020 |
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Dec 7, 2020 20:41
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Did the flaring bits on the classic stalhelm serve a practical purpose that the FJ helmet suffered from losing? Sure, as stated it provided a bit more protection to your neck, especially when lying down. The US's post 1982 kevlar helmets use broadly the same pattern for this reason, and there was some hesitance to adopt that helmet because it looked so much like the "naughty German" helmet.  The Germans really bought into the helmet as an icon of their military. "Der Stahlhelm" was the name of a right-wing veteran's group in the inter-war years. The helmet's profile was also used on awards:  (That's the WWI version. The WWII version had a swastika.) It was also the tactical symbol of the Grossdeutschland Division, used on vehicles:  To get REALLY pedantic, the replacement helmet eventually adopted by the DDR was designed in 1942, specifically to make production simpler. (This wasn't the M1945, that's a different deal, a mid-war M42 (itself a simplified M36 (no rolled edges) that omitted the little rivet/vents in the sides for ease of manufacture (although this might not have been an "official" variant, just shoddy manufacturing).) But because the stahlhelm was so iconic, Hitler personally blocked it's manufacture.
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Dec 7, 2020 20:43
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Did the flaring bits on the classic stalhelm serve a practical purpose that the FJ helmet suffered from losing? Not sure about protection, but in one of those reenactment kind of matches they do on InRange where they compared some WWI kit, one of the guys points out that the stalhelm is way more comfortable to wear when prone, because the flared part keeps it from poking into your neck.
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Dec 7, 2020 20:47
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Cyrano4747 posted:edit: realized I need to clarify that that dude's an East German soldier. They, uh, reused a lot of the old Wehrmacht look, especially early on. It is downright shocking how much the DDR didn't alter the "look" of their military. I mean, look at that guy. Collar litzen (the bars) with waffenfarbe (branch of service colors, white = infantry). Feldgrau uniform. Shoulder boards with identical insignia to the Wehrmacht. That's an adoption of the old Wehrmacht uniform with the same incremental updates that they would have had if the Nazis hadn't lost.
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Dec 7, 2020 20:48
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WW2 Data As we continue with rifle grenades we can see a larger (61mm) anti-tank rifle grenade, as well as a hollow charge version. Lastly, there's a rifle grenade that can also be substituted as a hand grenade. What are the differences between the first two? How does the Hand/Rifle Grenade work? What allows the rifle grenade version to have a longer (11 seconds) delay than the hand grenade version (4.5 seconds)? Which of these rifle grenades used a self-destroying fuze? All that and more at the blog!
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Dec 7, 2020 21:05
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I assume some of the early DDR uniform stuff was done for cost reasons. Doesn't excuse it and man those fifties early conscipts must of not been the best fans.
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Dec 7, 2020 21:26
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On the other hand, if you are building a draconian police state, why change the tried and tested aesthetic?
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Dec 7, 2020 21:32
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Fish of hemp posted:On the other hand, if you are building a draconian police state, why change the tried and tested aesthetic? There had to be at least one member of the Gestapo that slipped through the cracks and ended up in the Stasi.
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Dec 7, 2020 21:58
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I think they actively recruited ex-Gestapo. But I can’t remember where I heard that so take it with a grain of salt.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:20
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SeanBeansShako posted:I assume some of the early DDR uniform stuff was done for cost reasons.  Feldgrau uniform. Identical rank insignia. Similar shooter's lanyard. Similar collar litzen. Identical pockets. Similar cut. Similar pattern "cuff title." That's a Wehrmacht uniform with updates. They slightly redesigned the uniforms, then issued hundreds of thousands of them. Since they're redesigning them anyway, why not make them look a bit less Wehrmacht-y? I doubt they saved any money there.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:23
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Here's a Wehrmacht M40 feldbluse for comparison:
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Dec 7, 2020 22:28
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Cythereal posted:Also something to bear in mind for these discussions is that you don't have to sink a ship to effectively kill it. None of the Japanese carriers at Midway, for example, were actually sunk by the Americans. They were gutted and reduced to drifting, burning hulks, but none of them sank until the IJN scuttled them. 2020 can serve you up an example of this, and from a kind of carrier, no less: Phanatic posted:Stuff like the USN's decision to scrap its burned-out LHD: For those that don't know, the US Marine Corps had its amphibious assault ship Bonhomme Richard catch on fire while docked, and if you look for photos you can see many things melted and distorted
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Dec 7, 2020 22:40
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Warden posted:
It was actually the predecessors of Charles/Karl XII, dude who lost the Great Northern War and died during it, who pushed the borders of Sweden to its furthest extend (Charles X and XI if memory servers). Also, the Hakkapeliittas are a matter of considerable discussion. The Swedish Intelligencer, a series of books written during the 30yw by English/Scots officers in Gustafs army mentions Torsten Stålhandske (who was fluent in Englishj) talking about how some of his cavalry, the "hackapels" were Finnish troops who were ferocious. The people in our 30yw re-enactment group (many career historians and museum staff) have dug up descriptions of Swedish orders of armour for cavalry during the war. Also the fact that Stålhandskes cavalry (which at Lutzen included all the ethnic Swedish and Finnish cavalrymen left) beat and routed heavy Imperial cavalry at Luetzen would imply that they can't have been lightly armoured/armed by that point. The ferocity often attributed to the Hakkapeliittas might be due to the fact that they had few if any pistols initially (so the would have to charge and fight hand to hand) and I think Hey Guns mentioned ages ago that they trounced Imperial Croat cavalry during the first winter after Sweden entered the war (as they were likely used to harsher winters than the Croats).
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Dec 7, 2020 22:55
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Nebakenezzer posted:2020 can serve you up an example of this, and from a kind of carrier, no less: It’s the navy’s ship
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Dec 7, 2020 23:40
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Cessna posted:
Okay, then somebody clearly has an unhealthy fascination with the past!
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Dec 8, 2020 00:11
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Argas posted:I can only imagine it being a disadvantage if you have a ship that can somehow survive but is magically light enough to have taken more damage had it been a contact explosion. So almost certainly no, aside from the aforementioned whoops all duds of the mark 14. Perhaps the new Scandinavian corvettes? The Swedish Visby is plastic and carbon fibre with a displacement of 640 tons. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visby-class_corvette The Norwegian Skjold is fibreglass and carbon composite with a displacement of 270 tons which it achieves by a combination of two catamaran style hulls with an air cushion (like a hovercraft) between them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skjold-class_corvette For reference a Flower is 940 tons and Russia's latest corvette, the Steregushchiy, is 2100.
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Dec 8, 2020 00:15
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Cessna posted:
It's also worth noting that that poo poo looked like that right up until the end. I remember going through piles of E. German surplus in the early 00s and marveling at how it was all cut that way. The greatcoats are super blatant. The DDR in the 80s wasn't a country so poor it had to re-use old uniform designs. MrYenko posted:There had to be at least one member of the Gestapo that slipped through the cracks and ended up in the Stasi. If by "at least one" you mean "gently caress near all of them," sure.
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Dec 8, 2020 00:24
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The various effortposts linked in the last few pages are tribute to how awesome you folks are. Some seriously good research and writing contained in past MilHist threads.
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Dec 8, 2020 01:42
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Watching Tora Tora Tora today and I noticed one of the Japanese Officers on the Yamato has a beard, really stuck out. Anyone know if there were any notable bearded Japanese Naval Officers at the beginning of WWII? Clickable thumbnail: 
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Dec 8, 2020 01:47
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Yeah I was thinking the same thing, was that just a eccentric extra or was there a crazy maverick who refused to cut his Meiji era beard?
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Dec 8, 2020 01:48
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I remember reading a good post on one of these threads (or a related one!) about the NATO and Soviet battle planners running projections on what would happen if war broke out in Europe, and both landing on something Horrifying like 80% of their frontline divisions effectively ceasing to exist within the first few days - I think this was talking about the mid-late 80s when military hardware starts getting very scary. Does anyone know any good sources or juicy info on something like that, on military planning when tech starts to get hyper lethal if I had to put it to into a coherent phrase?
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Dec 8, 2020 01:57
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SeanBeansShako posted:Yeah I was thinking the same thing, was that just a eccentric extra or was there a crazy maverick who refused to cut his Meiji era beard? Man, I dunno about that one dude but on a whim I googled "japanese admiral beard" and turned up this guy  loving goddrat I think four sperm whales died to provide the oil for that magnificent spread.
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Dec 8, 2020 03:19
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Does anyone have that clip of the japanese guys giving an aide poo poo for shaving because they don’t recognize him? Last few posts reminded me of it and I can’t find it.
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Dec 8, 2020 03:36
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LostCosmonaut posted:
I'd switch the places of molotov cocktails and AT ditches, yeah. There are lots of things you can destroy with molotov cocktails.
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Dec 8, 2020 03:39
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TK-42-1 posted:Does anyone have that clip of the japanese guys giving an aide poo poo for shaving because they don’t recognize him? Last few posts reminded me of it and I can’t find it. https://i.imgur.com/ti3yHSs.mp4
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Dec 8, 2020 03:56
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Cyrano4747 posted:Man, I dunno about that one dude but on a whim I googled "japanese admiral beard" and turned up this guy Holy poo poo, it’s like something out of anime.
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Dec 8, 2020 05:33
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I am just so incredibly amused by this.
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Dec 8, 2020 05:34
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Cyrano4747 posted:
Yeah this is a classic example of "I ate some of the cookies" does not actually make the statement "I ate all of the cookies" false kind of poo poo. (It's called an upwards entailment if you're a math nerd.)
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Dec 8, 2020 06:00
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1. Did the Swedes reintroduce shock tactics to cavalry in the 30 Years War, was there already a transition going on, or is the use of the caracole and similar tactics overstated so there wasn't much a decline in the first place? 2. Did the ratio of cavalry to infantry in armies increase throughout the 17th century such that during the wars of Louis XIV armies had as much or greater numbers of cavalry than infantry, and if so why did it? 3. If so how did infantry react to these changes, either in tactics or composition? 4. Was there a regression of cavalry tactics in the 18th century, where they became less aggressive again? 5. How did 18th century infantry repel cavalry attacks if they very rarely if ever formed into squares? 6. If so, how did Napoleonic cavalry (and infantry) tactics evolve to make infantry form into squares far more frequently than in the preceding century?
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Dec 8, 2020 06:01
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SeanBeansShako posted:I assume some of the early DDR uniform stuff was done for cost reasons. Doesn't excuse it and man those fifties early conscipts must of not been the best fans. they even goose step and their parade flags were distinctly Eagle shaped
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Dec 8, 2020 06:09
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HEY GUNS posted:why would they care? some of them were the same guys Thinking of the post war teenagers not the old sweats. I know some didn't have a choice but still.
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Dec 8, 2020 06:16
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