|
FlamingLiberal posted:https://twitter.com/mlb_pr/status/1339239227805065219?s=21 That's the only bad thing. They should have been recognized from the beginning, but a lot of the stats will be approximations.
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 17:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 12:56 |
|
|
lol all the statkeeping before like 1940 is spotty and nobody cares. This is great. Really want to make it to the museum in KC someday
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 17:49
|
|
|
yeah if we're going to count 36 Wins for Cy Young in 1892 I think we can count a few Josh Gibson homers from the 1930's
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 17:57
|
|
|
I'm delighted at this news, it was long overdue. Because of the 70-game seasons, some single-season rate stats will now be led by Black players before integration instead of white guys from the Deadball Era. Josh Gibson's .441 average in 1943, and Satchel Paige's 0.72 ERA in 1944 are now records. These will be the new leaderboards in OPS, and ERA-:  I look forward to seeing all these stats on Baseball Reference leaderboards. I wish Satchel Paige could have lived to see this.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 18:08
|
|
|
They're probably only going to count the OFFICIAL Negro league stats which are sadly not that crazy. Their official seasons were really short. Basically, nobody has more than 4256 official hits, so I'm a little bummed. We still have true hit king Ichiro though. Edit - Yeah, I hadn't thought of single season rate stat records. Rad.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 18:10
|
|
|
Turkey Stearnes is such a phenomenal name I can hardly look straight at it, even squinting. Just a blistering baseball name.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 18:16
|
|
|
Negro League news is great. If 2020 counts, there's no reason the shorter seasons for those guys shouldnt. Sucks for counting stats, but for rate stats and whatnot, awesome. It's about time.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 18:22
|
|
|
BigBallChunkyTime posted:That's the only bad thing. They should have been recognized from the beginning, but a lot of the stats will be approximations. I’m torn because this is obviously the right move but some of the stats are going to be wonky. A lot of those guys counted barnstorming stats, winter league stats, and traveling team stats so who honestly knows what’s “official” and what’s not. The sad thing was that by most estimates, 50-75% of the Negro League players would have absolutely been regulars in the other two major leagues in the 30s and 40s. How many destitute teams that couldn’t come close to competing would have turned baseball upside down by bringing them on? The Pirates, Phillies, and Browns famously turned down offers from Negro League owners to sell them their players that would have made them instant World Series contenders. The entire concept of baseball and the “New York dynasty” era would have been altered.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 18:55
|
|
|
Who cares? Even official MLB stats from 120 years ago are counted and the game was vastly irregular and weird. Let them count.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 18:57
|
|
|
I'm in the same "who cares" boat about the stats. Barry Bonds won't be in the Hall of Fame. Old Hoss Radbourn has the IP record with like 600 innings doesn't he? The game was so different before the 60's and especially the 40's.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 19:05
|
|
|
Well, also it isn’t like they were just making their own league because they couldn’t hack it in the bigs. They were kept out by MLB and that’s the only reason we will never know how they stacked up directly. Small price to pay to give them the proper recognition since we can no longer fix that injustice.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 19:09
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:https://twitter.com/mlb_pr/status/1339239227805065219?s=21 This is wonderful. An unforeseen benefit to the game: large numbers of 80-tool name players now dominate the all time leaderboards
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 19:13
|
|
|
BigBallChunkyTime posted:That's the only bad thing. They should have been recognized from the beginning, but a lot of the stats will be approximations. Proper Negro League stats from later in the era are more or less the same quality as MLB stats from the same period (though admittedly earlier negro leagues stats are crappy to non-existent). The tricky thing is those teams played a LOT of barnstorming/exhibition games, sometimes against very lovely teams. I'm guessing the only stats that will (and should, imo) count are actual league games. The lovely thing about that is the proper league seasons were very short. Also, in preparation for upcoming debates with Old Men about the righteousness of stats, remember that just about any year you choose the best team in the negro leagues was just as good if not better than the best MLB team.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 19:27
|
|
|
GPTribefan posted:I’m torn because this is obviously the right move but some of the stats are going to be wonky. A lot of those guys counted barnstorming stats, winter league stats, and traveling team stats so who honestly knows what’s “official” and what’s not. Bill Veeck had a plan to fill his team with the best Negro League players he could find, but the league shut it down once word got out.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 19:55
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:Yikes 
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 19:56
|
|
|
GPTribefan posted:I’m torn because this is obviously the right move but some of the stats are going to be wonky. A lot of those guys counted barnstorming stats, winter league stats, and traveling team stats so who honestly knows what’s “official” and what’s not. Seamheads has good stats for 1920-1948, and they don't count barnstorming games. Josh Gibson had 194 homers in Negro Major Leagues games, 44 in Mexican League games, and over 600 in exhibition games. The exhibition games won't count, and I'm not sure whether the MLB will include Mexican League stats but I don't think so. BigBallChunkyTime posted:Bill Veeck had a plan to fill his team with the best Negro League players he could find, but the league shut it down once word got out. Babe Ruth, too. It's why he was never allowed to manage a team.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 20:05
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:https://twitter.com/mlb_pr/status/1339239227805065219?s=21 Manfred good? Nah, this has to be a broken clock situation I'm assuming.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 20:21
|
|
|
Pretty ridiculous it took this long, but at least it happened.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 20:46
|
|
|
No Safe Word posted:Manfred good? I assume it’s just to turf the Vizquel news
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 20:46
|
|
|
No Safe Word posted:Manfred good? If it’s labor related he’s poo poo Also it’s way, way past time for MLB to put Buck O’Neil in the Hall
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 20:49
|
|
|
For those who don't have an Athletic sub, that Omar Vizquel article shows how incredibly hosed up he is, and he totally manipulated his (soon to be ex) wife:quote:MLB began investigating the December 2016 arrest in 2017 and during the course of that probe an investigator with the commissioner’s office, Christopher Ramos, called the neighbor. The neighbor said he did not speak to MLB investigators because he feared what the implications would be for both Blanca and Omar, and he did not want to endanger Blanca. Around that time, the neighbor said he got a call from Omar. Basically threatened her to stay because she would lose out on all of his money if she left. He's a piece of poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 21:16
|
|
|
Always cool when you gaslight your partner into believing they're paranoid and mentally ill. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 21:25
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:https://twitter.com/mlb_pr/status/1339239227805065219?s=21 Is there a consensus among the sabermetrics crowd about how close the level of competition was to MLB at the time?
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 22:15
|
|
|
It seems like the higher level negro leagues would have had a similar mix of superlative talents like Paige and Gibson, mediocre guys and then the ones that wouldn't have gotten to the majors at all without the color line. I had the impression that the color line was a lot about keeping the exceptional black players out so that the low quality white players could stay in. I'd be surprised if either was strictly better talentwise than the other, just because the modern situation where wealth more directly gives you better training/equipment/time doesn't seem like it would have been as true then.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 22:28
|
|
|
General Dog posted:Is there a consensus among the sabermetrics crowd about how close the level of competition was to MLB at the time? Very close. This post has a good analysis. Negro League teams had a win rate of .451 (64-78) in documented games against white MLB teams, and .750 against white minor league teams (36-12). Negro League teams were .471 (65-71) against Cuban teams, and white MLB teams were .601 (92-61) against Cuban teams. That is from 14 years ago so I don't know if there is more recent and complete data.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 22:29
|
|
|
General Dog posted:Is there a consensus among the sabermetrics crowd about how close the level of competition was to MLB at the time? The best negro league teams were as good or better than the best MLB teams, but the lower end of the negro leagues typically fell off quite a bit. For reasons no one has really ever figured out, negro league teams were wildly popular some places and really struggled in others, this largely independent of local racial makeup or segregation practices, and the teams at the bottom consistently struggled for stability. That being said, there are precious few examples of non-all-star negro teams playing non-all-star MLB teams (thanks to Kennesaw Mountain being horrified at black teams beating his teams, lol), and anecdotally, both sides held that the major leaguers oftentimes did not put out 100%, versus the black players who were absolutely balls to the wall to win. One of my favorite examples is the Battle of Kansas City, which is probably the best example I know of where a negro league team took on a white pro team in serious playoff series type baseball. The KC Blues at the time were consistently one of the best non-MLB teams in the country and were probably about as good as a basement MLB team any given year; they beat the Monarchs the first year and lost big the next year.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 23:52
|
|
|
Unquestionably the best Negro Leaguers were as good (or often better) than the average major leaguers. The further you get from the best players the more complicated it gets, because even if the average numbers look worse, how much of that is actual talent and how much of it is having to play on worse fields, with worse equipment, in the middle of a brutal road trip where you'd go on a bus for 12 hours, maybe get to spend a night in a local house, before playing a double header and having to hit the road again that night.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 00:32
|
|
|
Bregor posted:Also, y'all Omar Vizquel stans crack me up. I'd vote for him for the Hall of Nice Guys Who Did Web Gems a Lot but that's about it. Now I can’t even vote for him for that! Get hosed, Omar
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 00:39
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1339321122001653766 That is a lot more than I expected him to get.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 01:35
|
|
|
If anyone needs a baseball fix the Nicaragua baseballl league (Liga de Béisbol Profesional Nacional) is streaming right now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8TcAfDl_-U
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 01:40
|
|
|
Sydin posted:https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1339321122001653766 That's kinda been the theme this offseason Not many dudes have signed, but the ones that signed have gotten paid
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 01:54
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:https://twitter.com/mlb_pr/status/1339239227805065219?s=21 I'm going to use this as an extra reason to have some good bbq in KC while staying overnight after my son's visit to Children's Mercy.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 02:04
|
|
|
Bregor posted:Now I can’t even vote for him for that! If anything bad comes out about Jim Thome, I'm going to just go ahead and abandon all of my positive memories of Cleveland baseball.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 02:05
|
|
|
lol https://twitter.com/JarJarFan69/status/1339393780412153856
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 03:56
|
|
|
Slimy Hog posted:Don't worry, the Phillies seem to have become the new  but its Clark the BearThe Cubs drafted approximately four hundred pitchers since 2012 and the only one who became a good starting pitcher was the one they traded away.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 04:28
|
|
|
I remember in 2010 they drafted a guy named Hayden Simpson in the first round who not even the guys who know all of the prospects had a profile on. He only had 3 professional seasons and never reached AA. The Cubs took him ahead of Christian Yelich and Noah Syndergaard.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 04:36
|
|
|
Explosionface posted:I'm going to use this as an extra reason to have some good bbq in KC while staying overnight after my son's visit to Children's Mercy. Hope your kid is alright. The Negro League museum is also in KC and I hear it's GREAT if you can make it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 06:53
|
|
|
Poque posted:Hope your kid is alright. The Negro League museum is also in KC and I hear it's GREAT if you can make it. Can confirm, the place is awesome. I try to visit every time I get to KC, along with doing the proper BBQ thing by getting meat from Arthur Bryant's and driving up the street to Gates for sauce (and burnt ends).
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 07:50
|
|
|
tadashi posted:Someone make and buy I was thinking more along the lines of  with a Cubs hat
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 15:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 12:56 |
|
|
Poque posted:Hope your kid is alright. The Negro League museum is also in KC and I hear it's GREAT if you can make it. Thanks. Today we have a follow-up telehealth meeting where we'll find out how things look. Unfortunately, we need to go home asap so we can get back to the other 3 kiddos. That is on my list at some point, however.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 15:31
|
|