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yeah options are nothing, you have to pay your own money to buy them it might be worth a token bump (compared to an equivalent offer with no options) if you're like the 5-25th employee and the stock is valued at almost nothing
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Dec 18, 2020 16:14
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The Leck posted:(lol it's pre-ipo, so value them at 0) i literally just had mine poof into a cloud of smoke a month ago. we were a billion-dollar unicorn four years ago. they're worth $0 until the moment someone is willing to buy them off you. assume they're worthless
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Dec 18, 2020 16:43
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PCjr sidecar posted:good advice in general but i asked a internal recruiter at a health insurance company this and they were like what kind of moron are you to not know you need a suit that’s the recruiter sucking rear end and a son working there would suck
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Dec 18, 2020 17:32
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If you're going to value stock options at $0 then why are you even bothering to interview at places that offer them. The compensation isn't going to be competitive with any place that offers RSUs because the company isn't going to value the options at $0.
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Dec 18, 2020 17:48
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asur posted:If you're going to value stock options at $0 then why are you even bothering to interview at places that offer them. The compensation isn't going to be competitive with any place that offers RSUs because the company isn't going to value the options at $0.
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Dec 18, 2020 18:00
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asur posted:If you're going to value stock options at $0 then why are you even bothering to interview at places that offer them. The compensation isn't going to be competitive with any place that offers RSUs because the company isn't going to value the options at $0. this has not been true at any of the places i worked at with options. I was compensated very well despite the option. Maybe this is different for super early hires but I was employee #50 at my last place and they paid great on top of giving me a shitload of options
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Dec 18, 2020 18:20
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unless it's at least mid six figures worth you will find it's difficult to sell the private stock on the secondary market because for most investors it isn't worth the due diligence paperwork to only buy a small amount i was able to sell off my shares after leaving a prior company but only after spending my own money to buy them out, followed by a couple months of finding a buyer with a bunch of other ex-coworkers that i had pooled the shares with since none of us, including some very early employees, would have had enough to sell as individuals. in the end we were able to sell and i roughly doubled what i'd put in but by the end of that process i was just happy to get my loving money back also worth pointing out that startups have in the last decade added on a bunch of bullshit like right of first refusal clauses specifically to restrict your ability to sell them on the private market. imo the first "employee" at a startup is the first chump
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Dec 18, 2020 18:24
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but on the upside i had made sure that place paid me a lot of cash so the options bullshit was just a bonus on top of what was otherwise a good market rate
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Dec 18, 2020 18:28
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asur posted:The compensation isn't going to be competitive with any place that offers RSUs this isn't a universal rule at all, what makes you say this
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Dec 18, 2020 18:41
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the company i work for gives us options, and also you can buy more shares at current market value a couple times a year. it's an S corp so a certain small % of profit is then passed thru to me, kinda like dividends, so i make money from holding the shares (complicates my taxes tho). also, since an S corp can only have 100 shareholders, only current employees can have shares; when you leave the company, they buy all your shares back at current market value. so i can make money that way too, because the market value is determined by an outside firm that we pay each year to do a valuation, and that number never goes down, because a lot of the CEO's comp is tied to it. so these shares are actually worth something, although by buying them you are basically tying yourself to the CEO's coattails. i've made some money but probably not more than i would have by investing the same amount in the s&p 500, so idk  better than the worthless options i got at my previous startup tho
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Dec 18, 2020 18:41
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i lost the lottery twice but won once for a deec but not retiring chunkachange and i still got two tix where i gotta wait. so its had a fair chunk better odds for me. your mileage will vary rather brutally
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Dec 18, 2020 18:46
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i think “value options at zero” is about cautioning against options in lieu of a competitive salary as a non-founder if the leadership can’t raise sufficient cash to pay market-ish rate very unlikely going to be able to take it to exit gently caress somebody just raised $133 million for email signature management no, not public key, literal .signatures for discount-linkedin data mining
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Dec 18, 2020 18:53
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the problem is that market-ish rate for a faang employee vs a startup employee is like... double so if you're able to pass faang interviews and willing to deal with working at one, the startup is not attractive unless you value your shares very highly, which you probably shouldn't do
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Dec 18, 2020 18:59
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startups are more attractive than fangs to sane people because startups are usually not complicit in gigadeath
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Dec 18, 2020 19:18
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not complicit in gigadeath, law of small numbers applies where the places that are both the best and worst to work for are startups, you get to yell at the c levels if you have the cojones and i do lol
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Dec 18, 2020 19:19
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i guess i havent heard anything terrible about netflix but the other four are all morally reprehensible and people who contribute to their power should feel shame
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Dec 18, 2020 19:20
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there is no ethical employment under capitalism
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Dec 18, 2020 19:20
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DELETE CASCADE posted:there is no ethical employment under capitalism ofc but that doesnt make yelling at the ceo any less enjoyable
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Dec 18, 2020 19:21
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for sure. i like mid size companies, where i can yell at the CEO personally, but there is also an HR department and i can reasonably expect my checks to clear
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Dec 18, 2020 19:22
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vc land means the checks clear at peep #5 and hr is never your friend. i get it if you dont live in a figgieland tho
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Dec 18, 2020 19:23
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i work for a small privately held company where i get paid well but not like astronomically or anything. their product is some very boring asset tracking thing which to the best of my knowledge is not directly or indirectly connected to any fascist poo poo. the work is fairly boring but not soul crushingly so, people at the top seem quite smart and non-psychotic. i might dip my toe in the job market after covid hellworld is over (assuming i don't get laid off in the meantime) but idk i'm not in any particular hurry right now.
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Dec 18, 2020 19:26
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yeah i don't think of HR as my friend, but its existence suggests a real company that has thought about what it means to be a company that employs people, rather than a couple founder dudes with stanford degrees who convinced a VC to give them money, and now they just need to hire a couple developers to "build their vision"
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Dec 18, 2020 19:29
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raminasi posted:this isn't a universal rule at all, what makes you say this it's pretty universal. startups offer competitive salaries these days, but that's very different from being competitive on total comp.
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Dec 18, 2020 19:58
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raminasi posted:this isn't a universal rule at all, what makes you say this Investors aren't going to allow a company to give away equity that they paid for. The company has a real valuation for the options based on the financing round(s), projected growth, and projections for future rounds and it isn't $0. It's possible there's some company out there that is doing this, but it's not common. I want to make it clear that I'm talking about total compensation so salary + bonus + options/RSUs and I've yet to hear of someone at a startup getting a salary that is equivalent to the salary + bonus + RSUs you'd get at a public company that is actually paying market rate. This is ignoring that it's far more common for startups to also have a lower salary component to conserve cash to extend their runway though this is possible to avoid either by negotiating or wisely chosing your startup to apply to. I should make it clear that I actually agree with those stating that you should value options at $0 or at minimum be very aware that there are a multitude of ways that a company can screw you. asur fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Dec 18, 2020 |
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Dec 18, 2020 20:14
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ok i will cop to probably using a non-standard definition of “competitive.” if I’m being precise, i should say that the marginal utility of the money in the gap between zero dollars and whatever the startup values them at is not always worth leaving when compared to non-financial benefits of staying (e.g. job satisfaction). this isn’t theoretical; i personally know multiple people who have been/are currently in this situation.
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Dec 18, 2020 23:16
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protip: you should also value RSUs of a private company at $0.
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Dec 18, 2020 23:17
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or to put it another way, imo two offers can be considered “competitive” even if their financials are substantially different if you factor in the non-financial parts of the job. higher number doesn’t always mean better choice and everyone decides for themselves what tradeoffs they want to make.
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Dec 18, 2020 23:21
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there's very good reasons to want to work for startups (or just generally companies other than large public tech companies), but you do need to be aware that you're going to make less money there and a lot of people seem to just not realize how significant the non-salary comp can be.
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Dec 19, 2020 00:29
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just started a new job this month and after week three it is extremely apparent that both of my irrelevant boomer coworkers are not just displeased with my hire, but are actively trying to get me fired the pay is good and i get the impression from internal depts that I can quickly get the gently caress out of this department and leave these nobodies behind if they don't manage to sink me first. the people in more advanced roles are working with me actively on their own projects and communicating with me a lot, it's just the two other dipshits doing computer touching. what do I do? It took me six months to find this loving job, but if both of the peers on my team are actively trying to get rid of me, is there even a point in trying to make this work? I don't know how deep the poison has seeped at this point but I'm pretty sure I never had a chance of turning it around with these two
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Dec 21, 2020 18:25
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Mirthless posted:just started a new job this month and after week three it is extremely apparent that both of my irrelevant boomer coworkers are not just displeased with my hire, but are actively trying to get me fired ask your boss: hey bossman boomers #1 and #2 seem to really not like me, what gives?
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Dec 21, 2020 18:50
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Boiled Water posted:ask your boss: hey bossman boomers #1 and #2 seem to really not like me, what gives? I've sort of had this conversation with him already and about to have it again, I guess My main complaint is boomer #2 thinks she's my boss when she has absolutely no authority over me, and her insistence on controlling my work flow is loving up my ability to work I'm worried I'm going to wedge myself into a situation where I just get removed for not meshing with the team if I keep complaining, but the team isn't loving letting me mesh edit: pretty unproductive conversation  gently caress
Mirthless fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Dec 21, 2020 |
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Dec 21, 2020 19:11
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Mirthless posted:I've sort of had this conversation with him already and about to have it again, I guess Tell your boss: "Boomer #2's insistence on controlling my work flow is loving up my ability to work" if that doesn't make a difference tell them that boomers suck and peace out
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Dec 21, 2020 22:30
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Fixing this kind of stuff is literally what managers are supposed to be for. If you can't patch it easily yourself, escalate.
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Dec 21, 2020 22:53
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I'd try what was suggested above with your manager first, but if you're going to peace out anyway you don't have anything to lose to reach out to those that are working with you and see if you can jump to another team.
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Dec 21, 2020 22:58
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asur posted:I'd try what was suggested above with your manager first, but if you're going to peace out anyway you don't have anything to lose to reach out to those that are working with you and see if you can jump to another team. if OPs on peacing out, going above their manager is also a fun ride.
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Dec 21, 2020 23:18
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I'm not quite there yet, I'm gonna make one last try to get these guys to cool their jets and if that doesn't work I'll start looking again, as much as that sucks a fat one If this is the kind of place where going over a manager's head works I don't know if I want to work here anyway, I did have the fun experience of getting to do this to a manager on a temp job recently but I actually live in this town and would rather not poo poo where I eat just yet. I think the current manager is having trouble accepting that this is not just in my head, and I'm having a bit of trouble relaying that because I'm literally autistic and this poo poo should qualify as torture. Just let me go to work and do my job without having to navigate the politics of office work Mirthless fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Dec 21, 2020 |
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Dec 21, 2020 23:43
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can you be more specific in what you mean when you say they’re trying to control your workflow? like are they saying you have to do code reviews or are they telling you what you have to do in given parts of the day or what
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Dec 22, 2020 00:09
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PIZZA.BAT posted:can you be more specific in what you mean when you say they’re trying to control your workflow? like are they saying you have to do code reviews or are they telling you what you have to do in given parts of the day or what We are doing ticket work and they are spending a lot of time monitoring my tickets and nitpicking the things I am doing in them, while making it more about general process and trying to evade the fact that they're monitoring my closed tickets to this degree; Like, complaining about the process I am using, but not specifying where I did the unwanted behavior. I believe they're just complaining so the complaint exists, so they can use it in the pile-on when they explain to my boss why I don't deserve a promotion or contract renewal in this case, I sent a field manager a setup instruction packet for an unsupported device feature instead of calling him up to walk him through that process myself, and Boomer#2 took enough umbrage with this to complain at me about it, and then my manager, when I told her "I don't see the basis for this complaint and I feel like you are trying to micromanage me"; I had to figure out what she was loving talking about on her own, because she repeatedly insisted she wasn't trying to address one of my tickets, but kept beating around the bush about that specific ticket, and that specific thing I did, and I know a public mail had just bent to the group a few minutes earlier with my closure notes. Why insult my intelligence like that? Why does this have to be a subtle game of figure out what the gently caress people want? Boomer #1 and #2 are acting like I'm being a loving lunatic and I know I'm overreacting to pressure but the problem is that this pressure shouldn't loving exist yet and it's so god drat clear I stepped into the poo poo and nobody will tell me what poo poo exactly it was that I stepped into. The only thing I can figure with #1/2 is that they didn't want to hire somebody else into this position in the first place, or that they wanted to expand their job roles into management and resent me for being a peer instead of a subordinate. 'm at the point now where I'm ready to reach out to the guy who I replaced to see if he has any insight as to WTF is going on here, because I am so loving confused Mirthless fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Dec 22, 2020 |
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Dec 22, 2020 00:24
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they fuckin fired me literally all I did was say "boomer2, I feel like you are micromanaging me" and expressed to my boss that I felt like they were not accepting me as a team member
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Dec 22, 2020 00:38
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and i was just typing up that it sounded like the place was toxic. i've had to deal with those types as a consultant every now and then and yeah it's a colossal pain in the rear end that i usually had to bring in the big guns to handle. without that kind of backup it definitely isn't happening. i know it sucks right now but this is one of those blessings in disguise. the worst option would have been them continuing to harass and stymie while not actually firing you. time to find a place that will actually appreciate your work
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Dec 22, 2020 00:43
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