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How the wire treats the drug stuff is weird. You got the famous wars end line, but going after the drug kingpins is always presented as a good thing like your supposed to empathize with McNulties frustration at founding going towards terrorism. But then seasons end with the cycle of drug dealers and someone new replacing them. So on some level it gets the pointlessness of the busts but it just can’t go all the way
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Dec 19, 2020 02:09
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CharlestheHammer posted:That’s romanticizing yeah. The first season has most of the police being racist but it honestly doesn’t come up very often. Honestly the Wire isn’t terribly interested in beat cops and mostly focuses on higher ups with the street cops more or less doing what they can in a bad situation with like a token rear end in a top hat cop who usually isn’t terribly important True. But then you have other cops like McNulty, Herc and Carver (early on) routinely loving up left and right and being Very Important Assholes too. Valcheck in season 2 was as hateful as any non cop. Levy too. I never watched the show and viewed it through the lens of the cops being the good guys at all. In fact, I found myself sympathizing an awful lot with "the bad guys" - the corner kids, Omar, Bubbles, Deangelo - so no, really. Often I wanted the criminals to win and had a handle on their motivation.
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Dec 19, 2020 02:33
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Yeah I mean, I hate to reduce a show as complex as the Wire to one thesis, but I can definitely see how it romanticizes the cops (as well as the gangs) along the way to the indictment of the system that makes them who they are.
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Dec 19, 2020 03:05
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Right, the characters are not at all two dimensional and the institutions are rightly depicted as flawed at best, but i think in the "cops and robbers" archetype, the cops are the protagonist because "drugs are bad" (obviously, like the poster above me said, this is a gross reduction). I guess I would have liked to seen more of "why are drugs bad?" Season 2 touches on this a little with the decline of the docks and the loss of blue collar jobs, but it doesn't really keep the connection going. I'm kind of playing devil's advocate, but I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Someone a couple pages back posted that "Is The Wire Copaganda?" video which I haven't watched yet, but I should, because like I said, I think the show navigates it pretty well, but it's worth examining in that context.
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Dec 19, 2020 04:04
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zenguitarman posted:I guess I would have liked to seen more of "why are drugs bad?" Season 2 touches on this a little with the decline of the docks and the loss of blue collar jobs, but it doesn't really keep the connection going.
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Dec 19, 2020 04:24
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BiggerBoat posted:the corner kids, Omar, Bubbles, Deangelo - so no, really. Often I wanted the criminals to win and had a handle on their motivation. lurker2006 fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Dec 19, 2020 |
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Dec 19, 2020 06:20
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awesmoe posted:johnny weeks/bubbles when he's using/(in later seasons) michaels' mom/dukie's family/etc is why drugs are bad The drugs are a symptom. What is bad is the economic and political system which has utterly discarded these people and would prefer them to die than treat them like human beings. Drugs, like so many other addictions, are a coping mechanism of last resort.
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Dec 19, 2020 10:02
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Orange Devil posted:The drugs are a symptom. What is bad is the economic and political system which has utterly discarded these people and would prefer them to die than treat them like human beings. Drugs, like so many other addictions, are a coping mechanism of last resort. Which is my problem, this doesn’t come from up a lot. It kind of comes up with season four but it’s undercut a bit by the boys being given outs but not taking them. Which kind of makes it a personal failing rather than systematic
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Dec 19, 2020 10:55
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Ehhhh...in season 1 McNulty and D'Angelo are dual protagonists on opposite sides. Sobotka in 2, Stringer in 3, the kids in 4 are purely the protagonists, etc. It never just takes the cop side or "drugs are bad," as it equally frames someone doing something illegal as a good guy too. There is just typically one villain on each side, ie. Valcheck and Marlo or whatever, depending on the season.
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Dec 19, 2020 15:12
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CharlestheHammer posted:Which is my problem, this doesn’t come from up a lot. They don't really get outs that they can recognize with the big picture. They are a victim of wrong place, wrong time.
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Dec 19, 2020 15:13
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Yeah I never read the show as simply as "the cops are the good guys". Like at ALL. They're repeatedly shown to be giant assholes, fuckups and liars who plant evidence, drive drunk, commit murder, juice stats and OT hours, cheat, steal and violate people's rights. I mean, I LIKE some of the cops (Kima, Daniels, Bunk) and the characters but I like a lot of the "bad guys" too and, to me, the real beauty of the show is the moral ambiguity and how nearly every character is flawed, victimized by the system and operates in that grey area. I don't think anyone was rooting for Lester when he went all in on McNulty's phony serial killer, for instance. I don't think anyone viewed Deangelo or Frank as "bad guys" even though got up to some shady poo poo. Omar, who is a robber and a murderer, is viewed as the coolest character on the show and widely rooted for and cheered on. Bubbles is a junkie and a snitch but beloved and sympathetic. Bodie is a killer and a drug dealer but well liked and not really seen as "evil". Prez killed two people (including a cop) but is given a redemptive arc that shows he's not entirely a fuckup, just miscast in a role and in over his head due to nepotism (much like Namond). I could go on. People are mainly shown simply doing what they HAVE to do to survive and do their jobs. And all their jobs are hosed up to some extent, corrupt and hindered or undone by bureaucracy, deceit, greed, selectively enforced rules, politics and (most of all) money. It's all in the game, you know? E: What I mean is, what I took from the show was how similar the drug dealing operations (the bad guys) actually were to the workings of the BPD, the Mayor's office, the schools and the unions, etc. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Dec 19, 2020 |
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Dec 19, 2020 16:55
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Darko posted:They don't really get outs that they can recognize with the big picture. They are a victim of wrong place, wrong time. I mean yeah like I said a personal failing. I get it wouldn’t make for good TV if it was just soul crushing despair but that’s kind something Wire fans like to present the show as. A show that tells it like it is. Which I don’t really think is true, it deals with the issues in a very surface level way. Which I don’t actually have a problem with, as no TV show really did that at the time. So while it defintely is pretty pro cop it is still a significant departure from its contemporaries. I guess it’s more a thing of fans overhyping a show they love
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Dec 19, 2020 18:53
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That’s not a personal failing, that’s people being trapped by circumstance and conditions. Shaking your head mournfully at fans overhyping a show is pretty condescending. I’m not going to call The Wire a complete and accurate diagnosis of urban poverty and violence, but what do you feel if treats in a very surface level way?
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Dec 19, 2020 18:59
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Also I’m pretty sure this show is primarily about the iron law of oligarchy.
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Dec 19, 2020 18:59
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean yeah like I said a personal failing. I get it wouldn’t make for good TV if it was just soul crushing despair but that’s kind something Wire fans like to present the show as. A show that tells it like it is. Which I don’t really think is true, it deals with the issues in a very surface level way. The show doesn't portray the kids not getting out as a "personal failing", that is a truly bizarre reading. If anything the entire point of the kid's season was to show how these kids are sent on a path to destruction basically from birth. The Wee-Beys of the world are a product of their environment. Randy gets beaten up, given up by his foster mom because they firebombed his house, and is thrown into the system and forever labeled a snitch, all because an adult authority figure intimidated him (a child!) into telling on someone else.
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Dec 19, 2020 19:08
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I would struggle to describe The Wire as fully "pro cop" or copaganda. I don't think it fully commits to showing the harm that police cause, but it does come up here and there; eg the entire hamsterdam season, where cops like Herc and Colicchio are just itching to go back to busting heads, or Carcetti's ridealong where we see cops basically entrapping people to meet arrest quotas (and the one guy who just wants to drop white phosphorous on the whole ghetto, which to me feels like a scene inspired by Simon's IRL experience as a cop reporter), or walker straight up breaking a child's fingers, and so on. I mean even in season one you have scenes where "good guys" are more committed to the thin blue line than to being decent people; Kima rushing over to join in on beating the poo poo out of Bodie, Daniels making sure everyone has their stories straight so that nobody gets punished for Prezbo blinding a teenager (even though he's personally furious with them, his main priority is to make sure that no cop faces a consequence), etc. I think if you made the show again today, you'd have to put the acab themes more front and center, but they're definitely there in the background, I feel. I guess you could accuse the show of making too many protagonists "good cops" but I don't feel like it presents the institution itself as a force for good. I never felt like it was trying to say "well there's a few bad apples, what can you do," the whole institution always came across as rotten to the core to me, and the good cops were just trying to make the best of it. Human Tornada posted:given up by his foster mom because they firebombed his house Is that what happened? I assumed she died, but now that you mention it I don't remember specifically.
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Dec 19, 2020 19:17
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Ainsley McTree posted:Is that what happened? I assumed she died, but now that you mention it I don't remember specifically. I believe she was seriously injured but can't remember anything about her dying. "Given up" might not have been totally accurate but a year later he's still in the group home.
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Dec 19, 2020 19:30
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Suspect much like you cannot make an anti-war film, you also cannot make an anti-cop film. All the horror cops inflict just serves to make them 'interesting' 'rounded' 'complex' and 'compelling'. And who gives a gently caress about the people hosed with, certainly not our overarching plot. Even though All Cops Are Bastards In The Wire Also, they are still the heroes and protagonists, and all their bullshit is justifiable for the purposes of the plot. Herc's lovely policing and abuse is played for laughs, as is Presbos. Either they are bastards but it is funny because they are bad at it, or they are bastards but it is ok because they have a Mission. So, yeah, that poo poo is copaganda for sure.
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Dec 19, 2020 19:38
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That's the problem with subjectifying anyone, inevitably you appear to be presenting 'their side of things' or rationalizing their crimes as okay or excusable due to circumstance. The problem with trying to fix that is that you end up making art which is purely moral corrective, in which all characters are allotted subjectivity based on their moral righteousness, and the unacceptable are clearly condemned or put in jail or killed or whatever. Then you're not writing about real life any more. I don't personally think Presbo beating a kid's eye out is played for laughs at all. I think it's deadly serious, and the cops' attempts to make nice are (correctly, imo) spat upon. The only reason Presbo isn't thrown out of the force and put on trial for assault is that cops get a free pass from their own system. I also don't think you can say this about The Wire: Slo-Tek posted:And who gives a gently caress about the people hosed with, certainly not our overarching plot. You don't think The Wire spends time and narrative energy on the perspective of people who are constantly hosed with by cops?
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Dec 19, 2020 20:06
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Human Tornada posted:The show doesn't portray the kids not getting out as a "personal failing", that is a truly bizarre reading. If anything the entire point of the kid's season was to show how these kids are sent on a path to destruction basically from birth. The Wee-Beys of the world are a product of their environment. Randy gets beaten up, given up by his foster mom because they firebombed his house, and is thrown into the system and forever labeled a snitch, all because an adult authority figure intimidated him (a child!) into telling on someone else. It’s not a bizarre reading, it’s what happened. Duckies was given an out he rejected. So did Michael. This isn’t open to interpretation it’s what happened. Those two have the strongest arcs and are the main focus of the boys
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Dec 19, 2020 20:12
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Also Presbos redemption arc kind of sucks I’m not going to lie. He never really comes to terms with what he did or even really acknowledge why what he did was hosed up. He quits because he sucks.
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Dec 19, 2020 20:16
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If you think the kids rejecting ways out is due to their 'weak characters' or anything about personal responsibility I don't think you understood what was happening. People don't make choices from an objective beep boop standpoint, the decisions we make are themselves the product of our upbringing and environment.
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Dec 19, 2020 20:26
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Yea but they have a choice, which is the point. Realistically people do not have that choice. I get why it’s there for narrative reasons, but it’s not terribly realistic. Which fundamentally changes things. Instead of a system that offers then no hope, it’s their personal failings that do them in. You can rationalize it how you want
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Dec 19, 2020 20:39
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No, it has nothing to do with personal failings. They make correct decisions based on what they've learned in their upbringing. Michael hates adults who try to take care of him, and for very good reason. Dukie has seen 'help' given to him just taken away and used for more drugs and booze. They never had a choice. They knew the system was going to fail them because it already had. The show doesn't blame it on them, it shows them as rational and reasonable given what they know.
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Dec 19, 2020 20:43
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CharlestheHammer posted:It’s not a bizarre reading, it’s what happened. Duckies was given an out he rejected. So did Michael. This isn’t open to interpretation it’s what happened. Those two have the strongest arcs and are the main focus of the boys Yes, this is what happened, but the show never portrays these as failings on the part of the kids. You seem to be caught up in the same kind of thinking that you're accusing the show of, blaming the kids for making the wrong choices with no understanding whatsoever of how or why they might make those choices. The entire story of the kids is there as a repudiation to the idea that people on the bottom rungs of society should simply "make better choices".
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Dec 19, 2020 21:19
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It is a mistake to consider the disadvantaged to be angels. A lot of them could be in substantially better situations if they made different decisions along the way. What texts like The Wire try to show you is that these people make these decisions for what are perfectly sound reasons. I read a column a few years ago, it may have been the last year's of cracked.com, which was a guy who grew up poor but got a well paying job and a wealthier partner, who was suddenly realising that he was still making what he called "poor people decisions". They make sense to a poor person but ultimately lead to greater poverty.
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Dec 19, 2020 21:30
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It's the same logic used in the famous marshmallow experiment. You're supposed to sit there and not steal the marshmallow so you can get a bigger prize in a few minutes. Some kids steal the marshmallow anyway, we say they're impulsive and blame their bad decisions for making them poor. But there's an alternative explanation, which is that the poor kids have learned by experience not to trust promises of something good coming in the future. They just take what's in front of them because they know it's their only chance and if they trust the 'system' they'll be hosed over. Dukie quitting school and joining up with his friends on the crew is exactly this.
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Dec 19, 2020 21:35
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I guess you could say the Wire is being unusually sympathetic to cops in that most real world police seem to be huge assholes and in the Wire only most of the cops are assholes and even the ones that are assholes have some redeeming qualities. 
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Dec 20, 2020 02:32
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Ginette Reno posted:I guess you could say the Wire is being unusually sympathetic to cops in that most real world police seem to be huge assholes and in the Wire only most of the cops are assholes and even the ones that are assholes have some redeeming qualities. Lol that’s actually what I was trying to say but it’s cool that it got picked up into a full legit conversation on the topic
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Dec 20, 2020 04:49
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Ginette Reno posted:I guess you could say the Wire is being unusually sympathetic to cops in that most real world police seem to be huge assholes and in the Wire only most of the cops are assholes and even the ones that are assholes have some redeeming qualities. Cops being assholes is dependent on locale and history, too. Detroit cops, for instance, are better than, say, St Louis cops, on average, but thats because of a combination of Detroit riots and a huge push for community outreach in the late 90s that caused them to be more hands off of minor, stupid poo poo and to mostly stop beating and shooting people. There are multiple levels of assholishness, and cops are all over the place depending on where they are located. The Wire has some almost ok cops that are still bastards because Simon's experiences come from Baltimore with a weird drug corner system and a lot of locally sourced police that were raised there that isn't as prevalent in a lot of other cities. I think the portrayal is just based on observations from that location. Darko fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Dec 20, 2020 |
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Dec 20, 2020 10:33
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Also the problem of how eating two marshmallows isn't exactly twice as good as eating one marshmallow
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Dec 20, 2020 11:04
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I found Prez to be the most problematic and fantastical cop in the entire series. I have a feeling he was an Ed Burns creation/indulgence. He's a violent and trigger happy cop who permanently blinds one person and then murders another, but these things can happen! He deserves another chance. He leaves the force after "unfair" accusations that he's racist (for shooting dead the first black guy he saw running) and then becomes a teacher with a heart of gold. I thought he was pure fantasy. In real life a violent cop like that would stay in the force and keep murdering.
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Dec 21, 2020 03:14
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BiggerBoat posted:Man, I kind of wish David Simon would reboot this show or do a sequel. If you look at David Simon on social media I'd say he's too out of touch to handle a reboot the way it needs handling. Rollie Fingers posted:I found Prez to be the most problematic and fantastical cop in the entire series. I have a feeling he was an Ed Burns creation/indulgence. I thought they went out of their way to show that, consciously or not, Prez's racism is very real and that his firing was completely justified, disappointing as its timing may be considering how much he's grown when it happens. And the reason he's a teacher with a heart of gold is that someone like him should never have been given a badge and a gun, he only became a cop because of family expectations and nepotism when it's clear his talents lie elsewhere. Once he's freed of the mantle of a cop he becomes a better person because being a cop is bad for your soul. If he'd shot anyone but another cop I'm sure he could've stayed in the force, but it's clear he probably wouldn't have wanted to anyway. You can argue it's too sympathetic a depiction of what's ultimately a racist murdering cop like there are millions of, but I don't think it's as whitewashed as you portray it.
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Dec 21, 2020 04:06
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IIRC Prez had a bath back with the right testimony/connections but ultimately decided that he really didn't want to keep being a police officer.
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Dec 21, 2020 04:10
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I felt like a lot of Prez's early violence came down to unhappiness about his career path (he's not really happy/fulfilled or even good at police work until he lands with the Wire detail and specifically with Freamon) and also a desire to prove himself "one of the boys". He sees the other beat cops/field cops displaying a macho attitude and being violent etc but he himself has no idea how to tread that line without going overboard and goes way past it by blinding the kid and before that shooting up his squad car. This is not in any way excusing his behavior. He's a huge rear end in a top hat for blinding the kid and when he shoots the cop later on there probably is a bit of racism there in his decision even if at a subconscious level (as Prez said, how do you even know if that's in your head?). But I dunno if he's actively malicious. His face turn as a teacher is I think at first motivated by a desire to redeem himself for what he did as a cop but it later turns into him actually genuinely caring about his kids and wanting them to succeed. So I dunno. I it didn't feel totally unearned to me but if it were real life this Rollie Fingers posted:In real life a violent cop like that would stay in the force and keep murdering. would be how that story would play out 99% of the time.
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Dec 21, 2020 10:13
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Prez is the best cop cus he kills a cop.
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Dec 21, 2020 14:34
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Orange Devil posted:Prez is the best cop cus he kills a cop.
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Dec 21, 2020 14:37
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CharlestheHammer posted:Yea but they have a choice, which is the point. Realistically people do not have that choice. I get why it’s there for narrative reasons, but it’s not terribly realistic. Which fundamentally changes things. Instead of a system that offers then no hope, it’s their personal failings that do them in. No, people do have choices in real life. And often they make the wrong choices. But why? What about their circumstances leads them to make these choices? Our environment, and the institutions that surround us and influence us during our formative years(and beyond) shape our choices. That's a huge part of what The Wire is all about. People like Omar and Bubbles and Kima and Carver all made choices that led them to where they ended up. But so often the path feels predetermined because institutional forces have been exerting their influence for your entire life, and it's all you know. People don't get a God's Eye view of their own choices, we all have to make them from our own skewed perspective and The Wire is about seeing all of that play out from all of the various perspectives.
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Dec 21, 2020 16:43
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If you have no examples of someone who looks like you achieving a comfortable lifestyle by working hard and following the rules, why wouldn't you sling a g-pack to buy the latest phone?
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Dec 21, 2020 18:13
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Prez just wasn't made to be a cop and we're shown that. He's Valchek's son in law and that's the only reason he's there as far as I can tell. He has a knack for attention to details and certain observational things (as we're shown with his code breaking) but those sorts of things are much more suited being a teacher than a cop; especially a street cop where' he's clearly out of his element. I don't think he's good or evil but he definitely should not be carry a firearm. We've all had to work with the boss' nephew or the GM's daughter in some job at some point in our lives and, usually, they universally loving suck.
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Dec 21, 2020 18:54
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