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Drone_Fragger posted:...just follow the CoQ approach: You can *always* find something to eat locally ("You scrounge some cave mushrooms, some meat off a corpse and some rock salt, and boil it in a pot") but it has a time cost and can't be used in combat, so you'll never actually starve to death from ambient "Can't find food" problems. Then make it so real food only takes a turn to eat and can be eaten in combat, ... I like this hunger solution, but I have a couple problems with it. First, spell combat in the mid-late game usually doesn't take long enough that I could imagine starvation from higher-level spells coming up more than once or twice in a normal run, though maybe this change would encourage people to try out firestorm when it's castable but high-food cost more often, meaning they'd be more likely to get into near starving more often. Second, for non-casters there's no reason to pay much attention to food if you make that change. Adding a hunger cost to tabbing enemies is an option, but I don't know how good of an idea it is. I do think it's less of a problem with gooncrawl because the spellset lends people to going hybrid most of the time instead of no-spellcasting.
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Dec 30, 2020 16:06
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It'd also be relevant for god abilities with hunger costs, but I see your point.
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Dec 30, 2020 16:08
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There's already a tiny hunger cost for swinging your weapon. Or at least there used to be.
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Dec 30, 2020 16:09
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PMush Perfect posted:It'd also be relevant for god abilities with hunger costs, but I see your point.
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Dec 30, 2020 16:12
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IMO one issue with Crawl development is that each new version is treated like the new definitive Crawl, rather than using a season approach like Fortnite et al. If you're going to keep a game under indefinite revision, you can't keep removing core features like races and hunger. It's the most alienating poo poo.
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Dec 30, 2020 17:47
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Alienating, that's a good word. I always kind of wonder how many of the people who play Crawl now are still the same people who played it fifteen years ago when I started. The Stone Soup devs always claimed they wanted to make the game more accessible to new players, but they never seemed to have any regard for what the people who were already playing the game wanted out of it.
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Dec 30, 2020 17:50
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Yeah I've been playing Crawl for 15 years. If they wanted to change a core feature permanently, they missed their chance years ago. Go ahead and do a "no hunger or centaurs" season, but then you have to bring them back, because they are part of the game.
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Dec 30, 2020 17:52
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The traps change was the final straw for me, promising runs being lost because of uncounterable RNG isn’t fun even slightly.
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Dec 30, 2020 17:54
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I'd like a hunger mechanic where it was something more to engage with directly in spirit---as in, it manifests as an actual Unique Spirit that will hunt you down through walls and whatnot with keen awareness needing you to kill it in likely rewarding combat as with other Uniques. Each time you do, it increases the (AUT) until it comes around again, but it also gets markedly more powerful with each encounter, perhaps brings Thematic Friends or unencountered normal Uniques eventually and then also with buffs, etc. By the end game, it would at least have risk/reward attached to it as opposed to an outright kill/scarcity timer---possibly even an Achievement beyond Runes/Tournaments/etc for successfully Conquering Hunger fully as it caps out at something like Pan Lord strength or a bit beyond. But like any(thing) fight now, only So Much when Ice Mages with Absolute Zero are a thing.
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Dec 30, 2020 22:47
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Basically the wizard from nethack then? That could make a nice thematic gameplay idea - You need the orb of Zot to banish a cursed spirit that is chasing you down. You can keep killing it but every time you do it gets a little bit stronger, so you have to keep moving forward.
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Dec 30, 2020 22:50
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Something like what Spelunky does, but instead of a hard 'gently caress right the hell off out of this level' clock, it's more of a 'you must be this powerful by this point or you might as well just give up' thing? It's a cool idea, although in its way, I think it's as restrictive as the death clock. As an alternate game mode, though? I would play this. I really would.
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Dec 30, 2020 22:55
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What happens when you come back out of the branches? I'd hate to get annihilated by a wizard of zot on D10 because I took too long fighting my way to Lair and Orc.
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Dec 30, 2020 23:10
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PMush Perfect posted:What happens when you come back out of the branches? I'd hate to get annihilated by a wizard of zot on D10 because I took too long fighting my way to Lair and Orc.
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Dec 30, 2020 23:12
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Spend too long on any level and Baron von Blubba appears. He instantly kills you if he catches you and goes through walls, but travels in straight lines of predetermined length only. All enemies turn into food when they die, and the quality of the food reflects how many points they're worth. If you reach the Orb of Zot without a companion, you can only get the fake ending, try again with a friend.
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Dec 30, 2020 23:14
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Spelunky and the nethack Wizard are solid touchstones---think of it as another progression mechanic as well. Instead of scumming for Xom mutations or some such, maybe you purposefully keep Confronting the spirit early on in the adventure reckoning you've got some potent consumables and whatnot to levy instead of hoard in vain, and giant surges of XP not unlike OOD Uniques of Old and drops to gain relatively OnDemand while presuming the remaining organic future encounters could* be well in hand. Gimmick builds could also have more of a chance vs tilting at attrition to get them off the ground outside of Wizmode or luck burning for early/any XP pots. If Crawl is to be all fighting and low Environ Intrigue compared to the likes of Brogue or The Ground Gives Way, then lean into the fighting and Power Fantasy'ing to Enable rather than Excise. I will forever wonder what might've been if Sangband had kept on keeping on to keep Stone Soup relatively "in check" as that's still the only other thing out there trying to maneuver in the same relative space..
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Dec 30, 2020 23:21
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ExiledTinkerer posted:Instead of scumming for Xom mutations or some such, maybe you purposefully keep Confronting the spirit early on in the adventure reckoning you've got some potent consumables and whatnot to levy instead of hoard in vain, and giant surges of XP not unlike OOD Uniques of Old and drops to gain relatively OnDemand while presuming the remaining organic future encounters could* be well in hand.
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Dec 30, 2020 23:25
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In my opinion I'm not sure that's a good fit for crawl. The Spelunky ghost is a good way to encourage people not to trawl though every part of a level, but that's okay because most parts of most levels only contain gold. In crawl that random corridor you explore could well be the tile with the only ring of resist fire in the dungeon. Plus with a punishing clock you might want to not use autoexplore, which would be terrible. I'm not sure crawl needs a mechanic to encourage moving through the dungeon. Xom-scumming would be fixed more easily by making Xom get worse if he's repeatedly bored, and otherwise there's just no point. It's not like there are good (non-tedious) options to have to rest less - even if you run around at 50% HP, you're still on average healing as much damage as you take. Having to use the most food-efficient methods sounds like a boring consideration -oh, my conjurer had better get the dagger out to deal with these sheep, can't waste the food on spells. I don't know I'd want to see cooking, but copying the vampire system of various effects at different hunger levels (like +/- HP, MP, breath/exhaustion recovery rate) would probably fit most within the current system. Being -20% HP would be something to avoid very strongly, but it wouldn't be "I'm screwed because only half as many rations spawned as usual".
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Dec 31, 2020 01:03
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You bring up some good points, but I'm not in a position to respond right now. I'll get back to you about this.
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Dec 31, 2020 01:10
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Why does Xom scumming need to be fixed?
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Dec 31, 2020 01:43
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Because it's poor design to let players always think "hmm, I might have survived if I had just sat in the temple hitting 5 until a got a sweet set of mutations and a few helpful items, but I didn't because that's boring/feels kind of like cheating/is literally called scumming by the community". You could just not xomscum, but Xomscumming isn't a meta-strategy like choosing a stronger race or background (or even just outright cheating), or aiming for a speedrun or highscore. It's something that most characters could do near-effortlessly. I think it could even be automated, so it's not like it would involve a time commitment, except uninformed or technically unskilled people. From another angle, I don't think most crawl players would support adding a god with the explicit purpose of enabling xom scumming, so it isn't something that should be left in the game because it happens to be possible now. I personally also think Xom should have an increasingly deadly response if you're being boring, that seems very on brand.
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Dec 31, 2020 03:26
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it's actually insanely stupid that xom, the god known for being capricious and getting bored with (supposedly) lethal results, is somehow able to be used to enable this kind of poo poo. there needs to be some sort of rework of that aspect of it. xomscumming doesn't need to exist because it's dumb as hell and makes no sense from a flavor standpoint, to not even go into other reasons, which i feel is something that people can at least agree on since 'flavor' seems to be the topic on hand in this thread half the time.
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Dec 31, 2020 03:32
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He already does do bad things if you are a BORING THING, so yeah you could just make every time you become a BORING THING have more severe punishments.
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Dec 31, 2020 03:40
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LeastActionHero posted:In my opinion I'm not sure that's a good fit for crawl. The Spelunky ghost is a good way to encourage people not to trawl though every part of a level, but that's okay because most parts of most levels only contain gold. In crawl that random corridor you explore could well be the tile with the only ring of resist fire in the dungeon. Plus with a punishing clock you might want to not use autoexplore, which would be terrible. I personally don't favor a "punishing" clock so much as an Interesting Escalatory Intrigue one per se as difficult for the sake of difficult roguelike design has long since slipped out of balance to the point of being quaint damnation not far removed from fractional spreadsheet screws being put to folks in the 4x realm as they seek Sisyphean percentages to feel again. If you have to interact with a mechanic that can well get you killed(in an ideally drawn out and agency bearing way, as otherwise you are on cursed binary ground with Thrones/Shrines in Telengard and I guess Caverns of Xaskazien 2...albeit tremendously rarer fare in the latter), it might as well also have the potential to make you more powerful and keep the character/game that much more interesting. The appeal of the greatest spear is greatly diminished without contrast with greater shields. The lands of Trivial Optimal are bland. Full on dungeon moving push would be something like Ironman reckonings in Angband and some of the more insane ADOM conduct runs where you are only going down and unfinished business is something you have to pivot around and through with bitter gnashing---crawl shaftings would take this to levels of obscenities beyond current linguistics and how such would force hands on Rune acquisition and Shops in order of hopeful encounters. If we're talking about salvaging and/or expanding upon other things before they are gone, breaking Beogh things to face mini wraths could stand for a more uniform interaction across the entire pantheon of Altars---could do a lot worse than ripping off Triangle Wizard by and large on top of most combat and otherwise wrath/penance effects probably now being something only experienced by an extreme minority of players overlapping with the incredibly new to the game and the incredibly experienced just forcing it for tournament gimmick badges on mollification and whatnot. Food/Breath reckonings a neat idea though, also something semi-similar already fashioned to good ends in The Ground Gives Way. So long as The Purple still abides... Did anybody ever get down to brass tacks on how Xom fares between his DCSS and POWDER incarnations? Could be some answer there, as POWDER remains the inscrutable bridge between Stone Soup and Nethack that nobody is quite sure where it leads or how, but still stands precariously to this day. As is, there's an odd amount of overlap with Jiyva in terms of Mutation Wrangling(still one of the best parts of the game despite being so buried for most) beyond Demonspawn and Draconics at the least.
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Dec 31, 2020 03:58
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SirSamVimes posted:Why does Xom scumming need to be fixed? It doesn't. The punishment fits the crime, as it were. It's breaking everything everything else around it that's the problem. also, I think this is Gooncrawl-only name, but,  I was off-setting it with something but this just showed up... hand wraps are also Slay +4 as well. 
Victory Position fucked around with this message at 06:26 on Dec 31, 2020 |
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Dec 31, 2020 06:22
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What's stopping just making the Zot clock the Xom clock? I don't have a long Crawl tenure and I've never cleared so my understanding of the more nuanced parts of its design are lacking, but if the idea for the Zot clock was to stop Xomscumming when they removed Food why not just make the Zot clock only affect you if you worship Xom? And re: the Xomscumming discussion about LeastActionHero posted:Because it's poor design to let players always think "hmm, I might have survived if I had just sat in the temple hitting 5 until a got a sweet set of mutations and a few helpful items, but I didn't because that's boring/feels kind of like cheating/is literally called scumming by the community". there are plenty of other games that have niche or otherwise strangely activated strategies at making you overpowered that are viewed as a fun quirk or oversight that aren't bemoaned. I've played Crawl for hundreds of hours and have only touched the Orb once but never have I thought "man I should have Xomscummed" because it sounds so incredibly dumb and boring that I don't want to go near it. What's wrong with players doing something stupid and bad if they want? It's a single player game and if it were to affect tourneys (which I completely don't understand the mechanics of) just... prevent it in the rules? Isn't part of the fun of these kinds of games that they have this archaic, sometimes esoteric quality to them where you can accomplish a bunch of hilarious or otherwise zany/stupid things?
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Dec 31, 2020 21:14
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Zodack posted:Isn't part of the fun of these kinds of games that they have this archaic, sometimes esoteric quality to them where you can accomplish a bunch of hilarious or otherwise zany/stupid things?
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Dec 31, 2020 21:22
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Zodack posted:there are plenty of other games that have niche or otherwise strangely activated strategies at making you overpowered that are viewed as a fun quirk or oversight that aren't bemoaned. I've played Crawl for hundreds of hours and have only touched the Orb once but never have I thought "man I should have Xomscummed" because it sounds so incredibly dumb and boring that I don't want to go near it. What's wrong with players doing something stupid and bad if they want? It's a single player game and if it were to affect tourneys (which I completely don't understand the mechanics of) just... prevent it in the rules? I very much agree with this.
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Dec 31, 2020 21:26
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Zodack posted:there are plenty of other games that have niche or otherwise strangely activated strategies at making you overpowered that are viewed as a fun quirk or oversight that aren't bemoaned. I've played Crawl for hundreds of hours and have only touched the Orb once but never have I thought "man I should have Xomscummed" because it sounds so incredibly dumb and boring that I don't want to go near it. What's wrong with players doing something stupid and bad if they want? It's a single player game and if it were to affect tourneys (which I completely don't understand the mechanics of) just... prevent it in the rules? 
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Dec 31, 2020 21:34
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again, there is nothing zany or hilarious about standing around so the god who is supposed to get bored if you don't do anything and try to kill you not actually doing that to the point where you just passively accumulate bonuses over time. it's a critical design failure just on the basis of the god itself and realistically shouldn't be possible if it was functioning the way it supposedly says on the tin. like beyond anything else i feel like this one thing isn't really a hill to die on and should be an excuse to make xom more entertaining and fun to play with instead of defending someone's right to hit themselves in the shin with a hammer for hours. if it was some other god then whatever, but it's kind of depressing if the one thing that's supposed to set xom apart doesn't even function right
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Dec 31, 2020 21:47
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I keep trying and retyping a big post but I think the bottom line is I don't know enough about Crawl to talk about it at length, but as an inexperienced player I feel increasingly alienated by a design philosophy that seems bent on adding new features by first removing others. IMO, if Xom is working as intended outside of sitting on 5 at Temple then there's no reason to go to all this trouble to address Xom scumming. It's categorically harmless and stupid. If Xom is not working as intended or could be improved, the way to do that is not by first taking a sledgehammer to the mechanical supports of the bad behavior and then taking your scalpel to the gaping wound. I still enjoy Crawl, I will probably eventually ascend with the Orb but I have a feeling when I do there are gonna be like four fewer races and three fewer classes. There will probably be new cool stuff too like Frozen Ramparts. Zodack fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Dec 31, 2020 |
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Dec 31, 2020 22:43
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FlocksOfMice posted:Spend too long on any level and Baron von Blubba appears. He instantly kills you if he catches you and goes through walls, but travels in straight lines of predetermined length only. All enemies turn into food when they die, and the quality of the food reflects how many points they're worth. If you reach the Orb of Zot without a companion, you can only get the fake ending, try again with a friend. 
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Jan 1, 2021 00:02
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FlocksOfMice posted:If you reach the Orb of Zot without a companion, you can only get the fake ending, try again with a friend. I can't leave without my buddy Superfly!
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Jan 1, 2021 00:32
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I get the feeling that this is a randart name specific to Gooncrawl.
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Jan 1, 2021 02:24
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Victory Position posted:I get the feeling that this is a randart name specific to Gooncrawl. A shame it didn't spawn with berserk.
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Jan 1, 2021 02:29
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Checking back to see if the mainline dev team is still doing their old poo poo. Yep, I'll keep on staying away given how many other roguelike options there are now. It's a shame, from around .6 to .18 it was one of my favorite games ever.
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Jan 5, 2021 03:44
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eyebrow posted:Checking back to see if the mainline dev team is still doing their old poo poo. Yep, I'll keep on staying away given how many other roguelike options there are now. It's a shame, from around .6 to .18 it was one of my favorite games ever. Don't run away yet, friend! Our own branch of GoonCrawl is still lots of fun to play and I should know because I've been playing it (poorly) for a while now. It's got all the fun stuff and then some. Give it a try.
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Jan 5, 2021 21:12
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 Oh, hello.
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Jan 5, 2021 22:11
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Oof, sucks to be you. Got any scrolls left? Even a blind jump is probably better than where you're at.
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Jan 5, 2021 22:19
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Plate armor of willpower? What fork is this?
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Jan 5, 2021 23:06
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Cardiovorax posted:Oof, sucks to be you. Got any scrolls left? Even a blind jump is probably better than where you're at. It was from a friends game that I was watching. He barely escaped with a random tele. Then went back in and died because  Victory Position posted:Plate armor of willpower? What fork is this? It's 0.26. They rebranded magic resist to willpower.
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Jan 5, 2021 23:20
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