Tell me about references in older media lost on modern audiences

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Tell me about references in older media lost on modern audiences

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Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

hexwren posted:

I do not like fruitcake, but I also did not have anyone try and foist it upon me until last year, so I grew up hearing how it was bad

but had never actually tasted it.

Additionally, I can't say I was biased against it going in because I was just offered a slice of "cake" one night shortly before christmas in my office and was presented with a slice of fruitcake---which just looked like regular cake but with some nuts in it or something.

It was horrid.

Yeah proper Christmas cake is not drastically different from a larabar in taste, consistency and ingredients, just a little softer and slightly boozy.

# ? Jan 11, 2021 04:55

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 14:16

DACK FAYDEN: Feb 25, 2013; Bear Witness

Xiahou Dun posted:

The Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis does bad things to your brain and if someone brings it up just spritz them with a water bottle until they shut up. (Cause it's intrinsically racist as gently caress)

...come to think of it, why do people never apply Sapir-Whorf to English and like, the Romance languages and such, I'm surprised I've never seen a crossbreed strain of racist Japanophiles trying that

# ? Jan 11, 2021 23:28

silence_kit: Jul 14, 2011; by the sex ghost

DACK FAYDEN posted:

...come to think of it, why do people never apply Sapir-Whorf to English and like, the Romance languages and such, I'm surprised I've never seen a crossbreed strain of racist Japanophiles trying that

What is wrong with the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis? Is the problem that it is confusing cause and effect? I haven't really studied linguistics, but from skimming the wikipedia page on the subject, it seems like it would be true at least to some degree.

One of the posters on this website, who is ethnically Korean, I think, not sure if he was born and raised in America or is actually from Korea, has said that English is like the perfect language for business because there are a million ways to say something without really saying anything at all. This is not as true, at least to the same extent, in Korean apparently. I've got to believe that influences Americans' way of thinking.

# ? Jan 12, 2021 02:03

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

silence_kit posted:

What is wrong with the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis? Is the problem that it is confusing cause and effect? I haven't really studied linguistics, but from skimming the wikipedia page on the subject, it seems like it would be true at least to some degree.

One of the posters on this website, who is ethnically Korean, I think, not sure if he was born and raised in America or is actually from Korea, has said that English is like the perfect language for business because there are a million ways to say something without really saying anything at all. This is not as true, at least to the same extent, in Korean apparently. I've got to believe that influences Americans' way of thinking.

Cause it's false. As in, people have done studies and it's 98% emphatic rejection and 2% really badly done studies that tripped over their own dicks that still gave weird results.

It's like the linguistic version of flat earth or something.

The classic example is that the titular Whorf was basically some rando who just came up with it based on what he thought Navajo was like (no he didn't talk to a Navajo person or even anyone who had met someone who had met one) and thought their language totally meant they didn't have a concept of time cause everything was, like, cycles and we're all spiritual and stuff. (Enormous, racist incarnation of the Noble Savage and a giant bong rip should be coming to mind.)

Then actual people who study poo poo talked to Navajo speakers and asked them what they were up to last Thursday and it became a joke. It only survives among laymen and like Anthropologists and poo poo. No one who really studies languages does anything thing but laugh at it.

Now if you flip it and say a culture influences language then that's a totally different thing and literally the opposite of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (some jerks like to play this game but they really need to be stopped). No poo poo if you literally reverse your entire hypothesis it might be different. "I think cats and dogs aren't different species but just the girls and boys of the same species. Wait no now I think the opposite, so I was right all along!"

# ? Jan 12, 2021 02:26

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

DACK FAYDEN posted:

...come to think of it, why do people never apply Sapir-Whorf to English and like, the Romance languages and such, I'm surprised I've never seen a crossbreed strain of racist Japanophiles trying that

They do but it's rarer. And the answer begins with an "r" and ends in "acism".

I really wish it wasn't true and I fight the hell out of it, but there's still loads of assholes out there trying to do gross otherizing things to various groups. See the whole Piraha "controversy".

Sorry, again, I offered to shift this to either PM's or the Linguistics thread ; I don't mean to clog here up.

# ? Jan 12, 2021 02:31

silence_kit: Jul 14, 2011; by the sex ghost

Xiahou Dun posted:

Cause it's false. As in, people have done studies and it's 98% emphatic rejection and 2% really badly done studies that tripped over their own dicks that still gave weird results.

It's like the linguistic version of flat earth or something.

The classic example is that the titular Whorf was basically some rando who just came up with it based on what he thought Navajo was like (no he didn't talk to a Navajo person or even anyone who had met someone who had met one) and thought their language totally meant they didn't have a concept of time cause everything was, like, cycles and we're all spiritual and stuff. (Enormous, racist incarnation of the Noble Savage and a giant bong rip should be coming to mind.)

Then actual people who study poo poo talked to Navajo speakers and asked them what they were up to last Thursday and it became a joke. It only survives among laymen and like Anthropologists and poo poo. No one who really studies languages does anything thing but laugh at it.

Now if you flip it and say a culture influences language then that's a totally different thing and literally the opposite of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (some jerks like to play this game but they really need to be stopped). No poo poo if you literally reverse your entire hypothesis it might be different. "I think cats and dogs aren't different species but just the girls and boys of the same species. Wait no now I think the opposite, so I was right all along!"

Ok so you say it confuses cause and effect. Ok fair enough.

IMO, it is hard to determine whether culture influences language or vice versa. It's like how extremist political people (including posters on this website) like to talk about how the media brainwashes people, but an alternate interpretation of the media is that they just say things that people like to/want to hear, and that the media is more of a reflection of a culture's values. IMO it is not incredibly obvious to me which opinion is is true.

# ? Jan 12, 2021 02:34

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

silence_kit posted:

Ok so you say it confuses cause and effect. Ok fair enough.

IMO, it is hard to determine whether culture influences language or vice versa. It's like how extremist political people (including posters on this website) like to talk about how the media brainwashes people, but an alternate interpretation of the media is that they just say things that people like to/want to hear, and that the media is more of a reflection of a culture's values. IMO it is not incredibly obvious to me which opinion is is true.

No, it really is quite clear. We study this. If language influences your brain it's in subtle bullshit like how you'd sort color swatches if not given any instructions.

I'm a linguist. This is not some debated thing. It's blatantly false and I hate how much traction it gets.

And, again, if the cause and the effect are swapped the hypothesis has been disproven. That's a super basic idea of scientific theory.

# ? Jan 12, 2021 02:42

The Lone Badger: Sep 24, 2007

I mean, obviously learning a language restructures your brain. It kinda has to. That's what learning a language is. Or learning literally anything else for that matter.
I'm happy to accept that it doesn't change your brain in the ways presented in the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis though.

# ? Jan 12, 2021 11:14

Pookah: Aug 21, 2008; 🪶Caw🪶

Weirdly enough, I just baked a traditional Christmas fruitcake just yesterday. As long as it's stored properly - (packed in greaseproof paper and in dark, cool and not too humid place) it'll be perfect for next Christmas. I've always been told that they need to be made at least a month before you want to eat it or it'll taste bland, but I've never actually tested this in case its true and I waste a fairly expensive and time-consuming to make cake. I have the makings of another one lying around so I'll probably make another in a few days, since we're in Covid lockdown and there isn't much else to do.

I never got around to baking one last year, so the one we had for Christmas 2020 was baked in July 2019, I know this because I always label them to make sure the oldest one gets eaten first. A proper Christmas cake keeps almost indefinitely and will taste delicious even after sitting around for over a year. I've never bothered with the whole 'feeding the cake with brandy' thing because I've never found it necessary.
In case anyone wants to try making one - this is a very reliable recipe:

https://www.deliaonline.com/recipes/occasions/christmas/christmas-cakes-icings-and-toppings/classic-christmas-cake

# ? Jan 12, 2021 13:01

BlankSystemDaemon: Mar 13, 2009

Xiahou Dun posted:

No, it really is quite clear. We study this. If language influences your brain it's in subtle bullshit like how you'd sort color swatches if not given any instructions.

I'm a linguist. This is not some debated thing. It's blatantly false and I hate how much traction it gets.

And, again, if the cause and the effect are swapped the hypothesis has been disproven. That's a super basic idea of scientific theory.

Are you a cunning linguist, though?

It's not as if more descriptivist linguists haven't had a hand in manipulating language either. Heck, Acad�mie Fran�aise are still at it.

# ? Jan 12, 2021 14:08

DACK FAYDEN: Feb 25, 2013; Bear Witness

Xiahou Dun posted:

No, it really is quite clear. We study this. If language influences your brain it's in subtle bullshit like how you'd sort color swatches if not given any instructions.

Point me to the linguistics thread and then make an effortpost about this there, because the line where I switch between the words "blue" and "green" is very different from the line where my wife (and her entire family... and my entire family...) does and I get made fun of a lot and suddenly I'm super invested.

# ? Jan 12, 2021 18:19

nishi koichi: Feb 16, 2007; everyone feels that way and gives up.
that's how they get away with it.

hand/arm is another thing, some cultures include the forearm when they say the word �hand�

# ? Jan 12, 2021 19:37

Buttchocks: Oct 21, 2020; No, I like my hat, thanks.

My grandmother used to make the most amazing fruitcake that required letting the fruit sit in a jar for a month beforehand. Sadly she lost the recipe. Or she lied just got tired of making it. Grandmothers can be like that.

# ? Jan 13, 2021 07:16

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

DACK FAYDEN posted:

Point me to the linguistics thread and then make an effortpost about this there, because the line where I switch between the words "blue" and "green" is very different from the line where my wife (and her entire family... and my entire family...) does and I get made fun of a lot and suddenly I'm super invested.

Here's the linguistics thread : https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3525230.

I've made many, many effort posts in there and so have many others.

And that has nothing to do with the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Like, literally nothing to do with it. It's a cool and real thing but not related to the claims.

BlankSystemDaemon posted:

Are you a cunning linguist, though?

It's not as if more descriptivist linguists haven't had a hand in manipulating language either. Heck, Acad�mie Fran�aise are still at it.

You mean prescriptivists. Descriptivists by definition don't try to influence and just document and research. It's in the meaning of the words ; "prescribe" vs. "describe".

# ? Jan 13, 2021 08:30

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

silence_kit posted:

It's like how extremist political people (including posters on this website) like to talk about how the media brainwashes people, but an alternate interpretation of the media is that they just say things that people like to/want to hear, and that the media is more of a reflection of a culture's values. IMO it is not incredibly obvious to me which opinion is is true.

It's both. They're not mutually exclusive. A given media organisation will say mostly things that most of its audience already agree with, because that's what they want to hear. But for each thing they say, there will be four segments of their audience: those who already agree; those who disagree; those who will consider the new information and investigate further; and those who will accept the new information as true due to their trust in the reliability of that organisation. The first will be the majority, but will be composed of different people for each specific thing. And that ever-changing fourth group are the people who are gradually being drawn further into the worldview espoused by that organisation. And almost everyone is going to spend at least some time as part of that fourth group, so gradually your views become more extreme as you consume media that reinforces and expands upon them.

# ? Jan 13, 2021 09:54

BlankSystemDaemon: Mar 13, 2009

Xiahou Dun posted:

You mean prescriptivists. Descriptivists by definition don't try to influence and just document and research. It's in the meaning of the words ; "prescribe" vs. "describe".

Yes, yes I do. I even tend to think of myself as a descriptivist amateur linguist, so it's quite funny that I made that mistake. orz

Also, I'd completely forgotten about the linguistics thread, I used to lurk in it quite a bit - so thanks for the reminder.

# ? Jan 13, 2021 13:09

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

hexwren posted:

Additionally, I can't say I was biased against it going in because I was just offered a slice of "cake" one night shortly before christmas in my office and was presented with a slice of fruitcake---which just looked like regular cake but with some nuts in it or something.

It was horrid.

My theory is that American fruitcake is terrible because of prohibition. That poo poo is supposed to be soaked in hard liquor (rum, whisky, brandy) repeatedly for months. If you don't do that, it's not going to be great, no.

# ? Jan 13, 2021 13:26

Hispanic! At The Disco: Dec 25, 2011

My favourite recipe involves throwing the fruit away and soaking myself in hard liquor repeatedly for months.

# ? Jan 13, 2021 15:39

Edgar Allen Ho: Apr 3, 2017; by sebmojo

Hispanic! At The Disco posted:

My favourite recipe involves throwing the fruit away and soaking myself in hard liquor repeatedly for months.

Iirc there was a Sherlock Holmes cartoon with this as the premise in the early 2000s

# ? Jan 13, 2021 15:49

kaschei: Oct 25, 2005

BlankSystemDaemon posted:

Yes, yes I do. I even tend to think of myself as a descriptivist amateur linguist, so it's quite funny that I made that mistake. orz

Also, I'd completely forgotten about the linguistics thread, I used to lurk in it quite a bit - so thanks for the reminder.

So you�re just going to let the linguist tell you what that word you�re using means?

# ? Jan 13, 2021 18:23

BlankSystemDaemon: Mar 13, 2009

kaschei posted:

So you�re just going to let the linguist tell you what that word you�re using means?

I just want you to know, that I deeply appreciate this post. :allears:

# ? Jan 13, 2021 18:48

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Xiahou Dun posted:

No, it really is quite clear. We study this. If language influences your brain it's in subtle bullshit like how you'd sort color swatches if not given any instructions.

I'm a linguist. This is not some debated thing. It's blatantly false and I hate how much traction it gets.

And, again, if the cause and the effect are swapped the hypothesis has been disproven. That's a super basic idea of scientific theory.

I thought arrival was dumb bullshit and everyone I said this to said "Naw but linguists love it!" so I am finding this very satisfying

# ? Jan 13, 2021 20:56

wesleywillis: Dec 30, 2016; SUCK A MALE CAMEL'S DICK WITH MIRACLE WHIP!!

wesleywillis posted:

This might not quite fit the theme of the thread, but maybe it does. It seems like the most appropriate place.

In the movie Stand By Me, there was that one scene where the bad kids were "tattooing" each other with the word "Cobras" on their arms.

In the Simpsons episode where Homer gets a motorcycle, he was watching an old movie from the 50s(?) and one of the characters in the movies was all "You'll never defeat the cobras, no one can defeat a motorcycle gang" or something along those lines. Then the old guy from the movie was all "He's a rebel i tell ya, a rebel without a cause, just like the boy from that movie".

Question is, what movie is that a reference to? I figured it'd be Rebel Without A Cause, because of how it was referenced in the Simpsons, with a sort of weird what I call an "unaware self reference" but its not. I don't think its The Wild One (1953, Marlon Brando) either.

I've searched a bunch of different terms on Google, IMDB and such but can't seem to come up with anything.
Any ideas?

I hate to shamelessly quote myself, but ummmmm ...............Anyone?

# ? Jan 13, 2021 21:59

Scudworth: Jan 1, 2005; When life gives you lemons, you clone those lemons, and make super lemons.; Dinosaur Gum

wesleywillis posted:

I hate to shamelessly quote myself, but ummmmm ...............Anyone?

You're assuming that Cobras in stand by me was a reference to something, but it can also just be a non-reference that dumb kids think is a cool badass sounding gang name.

# ? Jan 13, 2021 23:16

PeterCat: Apr 8, 2020; Believe women.

wesleywillis posted:

I hate to shamelessly quote myself, but ummmmm ...............Anyone?

The reference in the Simpsons was a pastiche of 50s films and films set in the 50s.

# ? Jan 14, 2021 01:34

Mr Luxury Yacht: Apr 16, 2012

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

Iirc there was a Sherlock Holmes cartoon with this as the premise in the early 2000s

That's only the tip of the weirdness iceberg of that show:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes_in_the_22nd_Century

# ? Jan 14, 2021 01:58

Pontius Pilate: Jul 25, 2006; Crucify, Whale, Crucify

PeterCat posted:

The reference in the Simpsons was a pastiche of 50s films and films set in the 50s.

I�m guessing it�s this, but you could try the simpsons thread. They�ll probably have the deepest knowledge of simpsons references

# ? Jan 14, 2021 03:09

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

kaschei posted:

So you�re just going to let the linguist tell you what that word you�re using means?

This is an ace as gently caress joke and it deserves love.

Splicer posted:

I thought arrival was dumb bullshit and everyone I said this to said "Naw but linguists love it!" so I am finding this very satisfying

I like Arrival, but only on the level of being a nice drama that makes me have good sad tummy feels. It was "popular" among linguists cause we finally got a (wildly wrong) portrayal of a linguist cause usually we're just supposed to be translators. But there was a solid year of jokes about how the phonology of the aliens was "a lawnmower going over a rake" or whatever. There was a blizzard of snide comments. The actual language stuff is bad.

Obviously if you assume alien space magic than yeah all research goes out the window yeah I guess. You just said it did. Arrival doesn't make any sense with how human language works, but it assumes alien space magic sooooooooo.

# ? Jan 14, 2021 07:17

wesleywillis: Dec 30, 2016; SUCK A MALE CAMEL'S DICK WITH MIRACLE WHIP!!

Scudworth posted:

You're assuming that Cobras in stand by me was a reference to something, but it can also just be a non-reference that dumb kids think is a cool badass sounding gang name.

PeterCat posted:

The reference in the Simpsons was a pastiche of 50s films and films set in the 50s.

Ok ok. Both good points. I'll try to let it bother me less than it did before........

# ? Jan 14, 2021 12:57

Alhazred: Feb 16, 2011

wesleywillis posted:

Ok ok. Both good points. I'll try to let it bother me less than it did before........

There was a twitter thread where a Simpsons writer explained some of the jokes. Turned out that not even the writers know what the jokes are referencing:
https://twitter.com/Joshstrangehill/status/1341142748854845442

# ? Jan 14, 2021 19:57

CHIMlord: Jul 1, 2012

What's funny is that Sapir and Whorf did not originate the hypothesis (it comes from 19th-century German Romanticism) and probably only Whorf would argue in favor of the strong version of it. Also, Whorf's famous example regarding time and linguistic determinism comes from Hop�lavayi (Hopi), not Din� bizaad (Navajo). Whorf did get most of his Hop�lavayi data from one Hopi dude, Ernest Naquayouma, who was living in Manhattan. This was alright linguistic practice at the time but not really now.

Regarding the media's effect on people, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that in Marxist theory cultural beliefs arise from a society's organization of production, but those beliefs also maintain the mode of production in a dialectic with it.

# ? Jan 14, 2021 20:44

Yngwie Mangosteen: Aug 23, 2007

Buttchocks posted:

My grandmother used to make the most amazing fruitcake that required letting the fruit sit in a jar for a month beforehand. Sadly she lost the recipe. Or she lied just got tired of making it. Grandmothers can be like that.

Yo it�s called friendship fruitcake and it�s delicious. Here�s an example recipe.

https://www.southyourmouth.com/2014/01/friendship-fruit-cake-plus-starter.html?m=1

The US doesn�t have fruitcake - the Midwest and northeast have terrible food and for some reason that�s the culture we constantly export to the world.

# ? Jan 18, 2021 07:29

MightyJoe36: Dec 29, 2013; Cat Army

I made one of my own the other day in a thread about MLK. I commented that I could listen to that man read the phone book. I wonder how many people other than boomers would get that reference?

# ? Jan 19, 2021 14:10

Cobalt-60: Oct 11, 2016; by Azathoth

MightyJoe36 posted:

I made one of my own the other day in a thread about MLK. I commented that I could listen to that man read the phone book. I wonder how many people other than boomers would get that reference?

The Lego Movie referenced that, with Morgan Freeman (describing his own voice). What was the earlier reference?

# ? Jan 19, 2021 22:43

MightyJoe36: Dec 29, 2013; Cat Army

Cobalt-60 posted:

The Lego Movie referenced that, with Morgan Freeman (describing his own voice). What was the earlier reference?

Didn't know about the Lego Movie. I was thinking that the phone book would be an archaic reference.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 14:31

Pontius Pilate: Jul 25, 2006; Crucify, Whale, Crucify

Related, I chuckle when I see businesses still around but named in the phonebook era, like AAA Automotive

# ? Jan 21, 2021 21:41

Pocket Billiards: Aug 29, 2007; .

I think every town has an Aardvark Locksmith still

# ? Jan 21, 2021 23:34

skeleton warrior: Nov 12, 2016

Here�s a great twitter thread on caricatures that show up a bunch in old cartoons but where you may not recognize the subject. Some of them are pretty obvious (Humphrey Bogart? Jack Benny?) but several are definitely pretty niche (Joe �wanna buy a duck?� Penner)

https://mobile.twitter.com/nonsenseisland/status/1329531329617272836?lang=en

# ? Jan 22, 2021 04:47

Guy Axlerod: Dec 29, 2008

There's a bunch of cartoons that have a gag where someone sticks a bunch of matches under someone else's foot and lights it. Is that a reference to something? It showed up in one of the clips in that thread, and I happened to see it in a couple other cartoons I watched the other day. Seemed like too many to be just a recycled gag.

# ? Jan 22, 2021 05:36

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 14:16

Slimy Hog: Apr 22, 2008

Guy Axlerod posted:

There's a bunch of cartoons that have a gag where someone sticks a bunch of matches under someone else's foot and lights it. Is that a reference to something? It showed up in one of the clips in that thread, and I happened to see it in a couple other cartoons I watched the other day. Seemed like too many to be just a recycled gag.

I know this as the hot foot prank baseball players do in the dugout sometimes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_foot

One example

https://youtu.be/HkcLwRBLbUY

# ? Jan 22, 2021 05:52

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Tell me about references in older media lost on modern audiences

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