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Letmebefrank
Oct 9, 2012

Entitled

Ensign Expendable posted:

Soviet HEAT grenades

"On October 2nd, 1942, 7 German tanks with submachine gunners attacked the front line of our defenses near the Red October factory in Stalingrad. Our forces were outnumbered. Red Armyman Panikako took grenades and bottles filled with KS fluid and headed for the lead tank. An enemy submachinegunner shattered one of his KS bottles and comrade Panikako burst into flame. Then, comrade Panikako jumped on the lead tank, burning it along with its crew. Comrade Panikako died the death of heroes."

:ussr:

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xthetenth
Dec 30, 2012

Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

FrangibleCover posted:

While we're talking about APFSDS properties out of the muzzle, apparently one of the interesting features of modern fin rounds is that they're wobbly when they come out of the barrel and need some time to straighten out. This means that at very short ranges they'll impact armour at a slight angle to their direction of flight, which is bad for them, so your greatest effective penetration is actually out at a hundred or a couple of hundred metres from the muzzle.

Hegel, did your guys do penetration testing to try to work out Better Gonnes or was it only for proofing breastplates and suchlike to get Better Armour.

Oh hey, that happens with small arms too, that exact functionally random angling. That's part of why the reputation of small caliber high velocity rounds like M855 out of an M4 or shorter carbines is so variable, because in close whether or not the bullet comes apart is entirely down to that die roll of whether the bullet's lined up exactly with the direction of travel.

Also yeah, spin stabilizing a long dart is not happening for a few reasons. To get enough angular momentum you need velocities that'll do wild things like rip projectiles apart, and iirc there's other issues such as a fineness ratio where the projectile just flat out won't stabilize anymore and will instead do Wacky poo poo like overturning.

As you might expect, your bullet randomly doing backflips and exposing its broad side to the airstream is somewhat negative for accurate shooting. Precision or precession, pick one.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

:geno: Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Phanatic posted:

The problem is that as projectile length:diameter
increases the spin rate needed to gyroscopically stabilize it becomes higher, and as long rod penetrators want to be all length and no width you’d have to spin them at impractically high rates for stabilization.

Oh drat yeah that is an excellent point, I hadn't even thought about that.

MarsellusWallace
Nov 9, 2010

Well he doesn't WANT
to look like a bitch!

PittTheElder posted:

Oh drat yeah that is an excellent point, I hadn't even thought about that.

Good points is what long rod penetrators are all about.

Well, having a good point and driving it home.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
WW2 Data

Creeping up to the end of the German explosives, we finally come across a Faustpatrone! On top of that, we have two versions of the 27mm pistol grenades, as used with the signal pistol in the same calibre. How were you supposed to handle a Faustpatrone? What should you do if it fails to fire? What differentiates the two 27mm pistol grenades? All that and more at the blog!

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



MarsellusWallace posted:

Good points is what long rod penetrators are all about.

Well, having a good point and driving it home.

Once again, are we just gonna leave this money on the table? Nobody?

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

I've got an odd question for the WWI specialists.

We all know that the trenches of the Western Front stretched from the English Channel to the Swiss border. What were the trenches like at the very ends of this run?

I'm guessing that on the north end the trenches had to stop at some point before they got to the beach or the sea, if only because they'd flood from high groundwater and the fact that you couldn't really trench in a beach. Did they just pile up sandbags and extend the line to the water's edge and hope the tide didn't sweep it all away? Or did they turn back a bit with a refused flank that paralleled the beach - and if so, for how far? Were there ever trench raids around the end conducted by boat?

Similarly, did the trenches just stop at the Swiss border? What did the Swiss think of this? Did anyone try quitting the war by sneaking out of the trench and into Switzerland?

wins32767
Mar 16, 2007

That gets me thinking about a similar question. The trench lines are crossing some non-trivial sized rivers:



How the hell did that work?

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

:geno: Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

MarsellusWallace posted:

Good points is what long rod penetrators are all about.

:golfclap:


Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009

Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

wins32767 posted:

That gets me thinking about a similar question. The trench lines are crossing some non-trivial sized rivers:



How the hell did that work?

You dig the trench on a bridge, duh!

...there's no need to have a continuous trench to the edge of water, you can still control the area with overlapping lanes of fire from both banks, obstacles and mines.

Pyle
Feb 18, 2007

Tenno Heika Banzai

Cessna posted:

I've got an odd question for the WWI specialists.

We all know that the trenches of the Western Front stretched from the English Channel to the Swiss border. What were the trenches like at the very ends of this run?

I'm guessing that on the north end the trenches had to stop at some point before they got to the beach or the sea, if only because they'd flood from high groundwater and the fact that you couldn't really trench in a beach. Did they just pile up sandbags and extend the line to the water's edge and hope the tide didn't sweep it all away? Or did they turn back a bit with a refused flank that paralleled the beach - and if so, for how far? Were there ever trench raids around the end conducted by boat?

Similarly, did the trenches just stop at the Swiss border? What did the Swiss think of this? Did anyone try quitting the war by sneaking out of the trench and into Switzerland?

This is the beach end of the trench:


The Kilometer Zero at the Swiss front. The wooden shack is a Swiss outpost. Germans to the right, and French to the left.


In the previous thread, someone had posted an even better picture of the Swiss front, which showed clearly how close the fronts were to each other. I couldn't find that particular picture. Swiss army had outposts and bunkers and kept guard on their border. Apparently some soldiers near the border just decided to sneak to Swiss side and end their war. This was quite well written internet article on the Swiss front:
http://www.switzerland1914-1918.net/blog/kilometre-zero-where-the-western-front-met-the-swiss-frontier

BalloonFish
Jun 30, 2013



Fun Shoe

Pyle posted:

This is the beach end of the trench:




And here is the view slightly inland, to seaward, at the end of the trench system proper:



I'm pretty sure it was Charles Douie in his Recollections Of A Subaltern of Infantry - if not it was another British junior officer who was stationed on the front at Nieuport - but he said he made a point every day during evening rounds of walking along the trench right to the end until the sandbags and barbed wire on the beach blocked him so he could be 'the last man on the Western Front' at the end of the system from the Swiss Border. IIRC he said that he sometimes thought of himself instead as the 'first man on the Western Front' depending on the mood.

Loezi
Dec 18, 2012

Never buy the cheap stuff
Going over my dad's estate, I found a souvenir from his time as a conscript in the Finnish Defence Forces in the 80s. He served as a medic in the "class" 3/80 (i.e. the third "class" of 1980). Every year conscripts would enter service in three classes, s.t. those of class N who go to reserve NCO or Reserve Officer schools in class "N", would be the conscript NCOs (i.e. squad leaders) and officer candidates (i.e. platoon leaders) of class N+1. Running three classes per year ensured that the army had available, at all times, a pool of conscripts still in service but with basic training complete. The downside, naturally, is that the thing is a bit complicated and the conscripts are around for longer than is strictly necessary for their training. Modern FDF has only two classes per year.

So, the souvenir is a magazine called "Sirpale" ("fragment"), and it's the official magazine of the North Karelia Artillery Battalion and the North Karelia Artillery Guild. It seems it's the first issue, which is kinda cool. The North Karelia Artillery Battalion was its own separate garrison in Ylämylly, near the large-by-Finnish-standards town of Joensuu, some 75 kilometers from the Finno-Soviet border.



While the garrison itself was small, it became somewhat famous as the book "Unknown Soldier" by Väinö Linna, one of the most famous Finnish books of all time, starts there. I believe the garrison was closed in 1996, but the area is still in some limited military use.

The magazine has a bunch of text, but for now I'll just post some images with translated captions. Let me know if you are interested in the text as well, and I'll see whether I can conjure up some time to translate. This ended up being quite a few pictures, so please let me know if it's too much and I'll edit some out.


FRAGMENT 3/80


Oh-Hoh! Hold.... Hold.... Hold....


The Soldier Home, a coffee, and a doughnut save the evening



Top: You can find almost anything in the Soldier Home
Bottom: There's a quite room, a music room, a photo developement lab and, naturally, a library



You can watch TV, play Novuss or billiards, read magazines and spend your free time.


ROVAJÄRVI - Into this magnificent wilderness of Lapland, Lt.General Uolevi Poppuis and his Finnish Artillery built an training area between 1949 and 1956.

Rovajärvi is still the main artillery training area used by FDF. 1100 square kilometers (430 sq mi) in size, Wikipedia claims it's one of the largest - if not the largest such area in Europe. Location on a larger map:



Top: ON THE WAY TO THE UNKNOWN
1st picture: Preparing to set off
2nd picture: Plenty of ambiance in the boxcar
3rd picture: A "zoo" (during the stop in) Nurmes
4th picture: Enough time to get hungry many times
5th picture: Last look at civilization before "forestation"
Bottom: Railroad transportation from Ylämylly to Misi



Top: LIFE AT THE TRAINING AREA
Top left: Training Artillery Battalion 1 in formation to start the exercise
Top right: A "native" checking out the camp
Mid left: The mess, where bellies get full
Mid right: Part of the motor pool
Bottom left: A HQ squad in action
Bottom right: Eagle - center -- "Eagles are listening"


Note: The last caption is a bad pun: The Finnish title of the movie/book "Where Eagles Dare" literally translates back as "The eagles are listening".


FDF SHOW


Top: Fire direction
Top left: Orders being given out
Top right: "Mission received, move out!"
Bottom left: Fire Direction Battery commander, reserve officer candidate Suomalainen receiving directions from the battalion commander Cpt. Harviainen
Bottom right: Enemy has been located



Top: "Forward observer team, positions!"
Mid: Communications must work even during movement
Bottom: ... a company of enemy troops, FIRE



Left: Preparatory patrol at work
Right: Guns arrive



Left: We're in a hurry now, the battery must be ready to fire quickly
Right: "Check First"



Left: "this's only the first position, many many more to go"
Right: Mission accomplished for now, as is evident from the faces alone



Left: "The brain trust": cpl. Hyppänen calculating, lt. Klemetti training.
Right: Preparatory patrol, move out!




Two variations of the theme "ATTENTION, FIRE"


Target approximately 800 meters away - Accurate sighting -


Fire - Hit - Smoke - Target destroyed


1st picture: "Gun 1 ready to fire"
2nd picture: Propellant being packed
3rd picture: Parliament's standing committee on defence observing the exercise
4th picture: There it goes
5th picture: Empty case out, full back in to ready for new shot



Top: Prepare for AA fire with personal weapons!
1st picture: Jets straight ahead
2nd picture: ... left place ...
3rd picture: ... lead 200 ...
4th picture: ... ATTENTION ...
5th picture: ... FIRE


From some kind of a competition:

1st picture: Bronze patrol arrives
2nd picture: and being congratulated by the commander
3rd picture: 3rd patrol of the battery at the finish line, drinking some juice
4th picture: ... and the 1st patrol
5th: "WE're good, believe me Sepe"



Oh Holy Barbara!

Preparing for the General of the Artillery Nenonen's Competition for Opening Fire

Left: Serious faces before the competition
Right: At the start, the judges explain the simulated situation to the leaders



Left: CP being set up in a hurry
Right: Telephone squad ready to spring into action



Left: Measurement patrol, led by cpl. Torniainen
Right: "The best FO team of the wilderness" at work (those standing up are judges)



Left: "You gonna get that done?"
Right: "Don't you hurry me up, I'll get those coordinates"



Left: "What, speak up!"
Right: "So how did this go, half-charge..."



Dismount!


Left: Move, you're in front of the collimator sight!"
Right: "MOVE, MOVE, we're in a hurry now!"



Left: "Sure, stand there, it's not like this is heavy or anything.
Right: IT'S OVER!



Finally! GOODBYE MISI!

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

If you had to be stationed anywhere on the frontline in WW1, right up on the coast at Nieuport is where you'd want to be.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

great stuff!


this too!

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005

BalloonFish posted:

And here is the view slightly inland, to seaward, at the end of the trench system proper:



I'm pretty sure it was Charles Douie in his Recollections Of A Subaltern of Infantry - if not it was another British junior officer who was stationed on the front at Nieuport - but he said he made a point every day during evening rounds of walking along the trench right to the end until the sandbags and barbed wire on the beach blocked him so he could be 'the last man on the Western Front' at the end of the system from the Swiss Border. IIRC he said that he sometimes thought of himself instead as the 'first man on the Western Front' depending on the mood.

The chap you're thinking of is another subaltern called Paddy King who was in a very Territorial Territorial Battalion, the 2/4th Useless Fat Bastards or something like that.

...

I looked it up, it was the 2/5th East Lancashires. The "2" in front indicates that this is supposed to be a second-line battalion for crocks and old farts. At the start of the war they were fit only for garrison duty in England, then they became fit only for garrison duty in France, then lines of communication work, then fetching and carrying up the line and back again and other pioneer work, by 1917 they're going up the line properly in quiet sectors, and by the time Third Ypres rolls round they're (literally, it's very wet) in at the deep end like everyone else.

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

Thanks for the answers!

BalloonFish
Jun 30, 2013



Fun Shoe

Trin Tragula posted:

The chap you're thinking of is another subaltern called Paddy King who was in a very Territorial Territorial Battalion, the 2/4th Useless Fat Bastards or something like that.

...

Thanks TT.

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009

Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Loezi posted:


Oh Holy Barbara!

St. Barbara is the patron saint of artillery men :angel:

Alchenar posted:

If you had to be stationed anywhere on the frontline in WW1, right up on the coast at Nieuport is where you'd want to be.

Did Gunboaty McGunboatfaces ever bombard lines in this area? Did they have coastal batteries to support the loose end?

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22
The Allied navies had extremely strong control of the surface of the sea and did regularly use various monitors as gunboats. Most of the value in Belgian ports for Germans was submarine basing.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

:geno: Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Yeah go look up WW1 monitors, they're wild. Take the biggest surplus turret you can find, stick it on the smallest hull that can carry it.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

yeah thats pretty good


So on a only barely related note: I finished Dancing in the Glory of Monsters by Stearns the other day. It's a history of the Congo War, and the vast majority of the sources are first hand interviews, which won me over pretty hard because it meant the source critique was very transparent and straightforward. Because of the flowing nature of the conflict, it's not a history of a single war but a combined narrative of the various conflicts from 1990-2008 or so (book was published in 2011 so the data collection stops somewhat before then).

The top-level summary of events in his telling: Juvenal Habyarimana of Rwanda gets his rear end kicked in a civil war and gets assassinated mid-air. The defeated remnants of his side retreat into Zaire and their cross border raiding becomes the Rwandan Genocide. Zaire under Mobutu Seko Sese has already for decades been harboring these kinds of cross-border raiders for half a dozen countries, but now he's finally found somebody who's both 1) already on a war footing and 2) pissed off enough to do something about it. So the Rwandans build a coalition of both Zaire's neighbors and some in-Zaire rebels to topple Mobutu and place Laurent Kabila in power. This war, The First Congo War, is extremely one-sided - Zaire's military suffers from structural failures that are almost unprecedented, most famously stopping payment to troops which lead to troops selling off military equipment (leading to stuff like "0% of tanks were functional" and "a general failed to helicopter evac because somebody had sold the fuel"). Laurent Kabila comes into power, renames the country Democratic Republic of the Congo, and when he runs the calculus on what he needs to do to keep power it's a mess of "encourage factional infighting, build an independent military power base" (this made me think of Varangians vs Praetorians for Roman Emperors). For his independent power base he settles on...hiring the remnants of the losers of the Rwandan Civil War. This antagonizes the hell out of the Rwandans who view this as a threat to their own security, and they start another war to get rid of Kabila. However this time they don't do their diplomatic homework, and instead of having central Africa come down on Kabila like a ton of bricks like they did against Mobutu, you see two alliances that get bogged down until Kabila gets assassinated. One of his many sons takes over, and then goes on to win an election in 2006.

As an overall book, I loved it. Stearns puts in the work to explain the functions of power in the region and how that structure rose (and changed) through its history. There are people who hold beliefs that I think are totally wrong (notably, a lot of "bulletproof via spirituality" stuff), but the actions they take make sense in the context of what information they have and what they need to do to either protect themselves or achieve political goals.

Some military anecdotes that I'd like to share with the thread:

Rwandan infantry was (probably still is) massively, terrifyingly more competent than their competitors. Their regulars were sustaining 20 mile marches, and their more elite units could reliably do 40 miles in a day and fight. Note that this is in an area where roads are more of a gentle suggestion or memory than an institution. Honestly kind of freaks me out.

In the Second Congo War there's an operation that is worth looking at in detail. After capturing some border areas very early in the war, a Rwandan general gets impatient and says "gently caress it, time to flank the opposing capital." They put about 200 infantry into three 707s and land in Kitona Airbase, 1000 miles from the front, capturing it and cutting Kinhasa off from 1) the Atlantic and 2) its own hydropower dam. First, this is an outrageously bold maneuver - one part of the story is that the pilot, who was not briefed in advance, didn't want to land, and the commander told him to tune his radio to a specified frequency to request landing clearance. Clearance was granted, and it was later revealed that the frequency was that of a radio in the back of the plane, not on the ground at all. The secret sauce to the operation, unsurprisingly, was that the garrison commander wasn't particularly loyal to the Congo government, had been softened up for defection, and turned coat once the Rwandans landed. The really interesting consequence to this is that this was not anywhere near the Rwandan border at all, and was very near the Angolan border. The Angolans had not been consulted, nor warned, that the Rwandans were going to open up a front right in their backyard, and so the Angolans went from "preferring Kabila" to "actively fighting to protect Kabila." Which turned out to be a huge problem since the Angolans had real hardware, with the experience and logistics to keep them in the fight.

The armed forces involved are not particularly large given the physical scale - the largest state involved, the Congo, could only really field about 50k troops in its formal forces, and had secondary forces that made up another large chunk (which are effectively independent powers and thus Not Really A Great Solution). Interestingly, commanders on multiple sides prefer using child soldiers when possible - they're viewed as more reliable (aka more loyal to the commanders who trained them) and, interestingly, overall better soldiers due to general lack of self-preservation instinct (not universal but many commanders, particularly in rebel groups, have more trouble getting their soldiers to fight than recruiting them in general).

Mobutu hired a lot of foreign mercenaries, and in one region had both Serbian and French mercenaries:

quote:

The French, mostly former soldiers from the Foreign Legion, were better connected and paid up to five times as much as the Serbs—up to $10,000 per month for the officers. But the Serbs controlled most of the aircraft and heavy weaponry, old machines leased at inflated prices from the Yugoslav army. The French accused their counterparts of amateurism; the Serbs retorted that the last time the French had won a serious battle was at Austerlitz in 1805.

Ice Fist
Jun 20, 2012

^^ Please send feedback to beefstache911@hotmail.com, this is not a joke that 'stache is the real deal. Serious assessments only. ^^

quote:

The French, mostly former soldiers from the Foreign Legion, were better connected and paid up to five times as much as the Serbs—up to $10,000 per month for the officers. But the Serbs controlled most of the aircraft and heavy weaponry, old machines leased at inflated prices from the Yugoslav army. The French accused their counterparts of amateurism; the Serbs retorted that the last time the French had won a serious battle was at Austerlitz in 1805.

:iceburn:

Kangxi
Nov 12, 2016

"Too paranoid for you?"
"Not me, paranoia's the garlic in life's kitchen, right, you can never have too much."

All of this sounds incredibly fascinating. Thank you for the summary!

PeterCat
Apr 8, 2020

Believe women.

Here is a 90 page study of the evolution of airborne units after 1945. Its conclusion is that airborne units existing have more to do with political connections than practical capability. It's extra fun to see all the comments on the website from offended paratroopers.

https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/combat-studies-institute/csi-books/WhenFailureThrives.pdf

https://soldiersystems.net/2021/01/09/when-failure-thrives-institutions-and-the-evolution-of-postwar-airborne-forces/

My favorite:

comments posted:

30 c17s pulling up to green ramp is arguably more threatening to our adversaries than a carrier strike group pulling into someone’s AO. I don’t think we knowingly throw all this money and talent at our airborne formations because the pentagon is full of static line fanboys.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

Paratroopers as a deterrent threat - can they even operate in anything less than totally permissive airspace? What does an S-400 do to a globemaster

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003

Fun Shoe

PeterCat posted:

Here is a 90 page study of the evolution of airborne units after 1945. Its conclusion is that airborne units existing have more to do with political connections than practical capability. It's extra fun to see all the comments on the website from offended paratroopers.

https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/combat-studies-institute/csi-books/WhenFailureThrives.pdf

https://soldiersystems.net/2021/01/09/when-failure-thrives-institutions-and-the-evolution-of-postwar-airborne-forces/

My favorite:

this owns

what's the best historical analogue to modern paratroopers

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

yeah thats pretty good




Kangxi posted:

All of this sounds incredibly fascinating. Thank you for the summary!

It's nice to feel appreciated. I'm going to read some fiction but my next non-fiction is Pekka Hamalainen's legendary Comanche Empire and I imagine I'll have things to say about that one too.

PeterCat
Apr 8, 2020

Believe women.

zoux posted:

Paratroopers as a deterrent threat - can they even operate in anything less than totally permissive airspace? What does an S-400 do to a globemaster

Well, probably something like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#Findings_of_the_joint_investigation_team_(JIT)

Arquinsiel
Jun 1, 2006

"There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

PeterCat posted:

Here is a 90 page study of the evolution of airborne units after 1945. Its conclusion is that airborne units existing have more to do with political connections than practical capability. It's extra fun to see all the comments on the website from offended paratroopers.

https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/combat-studies-institute/csi-books/WhenFailureThrives.pdf

https://soldiersystems.net/2021/01/09/when-failure-thrives-institutions-and-the-evolution-of-postwar-airborne-forces/

My favorite:
How could you not post this gem?

comments posted:

Well that shows loud and clear how uneducated you are. First of all, there would be a shock-and-awe style suppression of enemy AAD and C-and-C infrastructure clearing the air for the transports. Then there’s the fact that the troops would jump, assemble and attack at night. And finally, there’s the fact that there’s no faster or better way to get a large number of well-armed troops on the ground a long way from home. Comparing a modern day airborne operation to Market-Garden is like comparing an M1 Abrams to an M3 Grant.
Sure buddy, doing it at night will totally confuse the air defence :allears:

Gnoman
Feb 12, 2014

Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme




bewbies posted:

this owns

what's the best historical analogue to modern paratroopers

Grenadiers?

Slim Jim Pickens
Jan 16, 2012

Arquinsiel posted:

How could you not post this gem?
Sure buddy, doing it at night will totally confuse the air defence :allears:

The radar operators will be sleeping

White Coke
May 29, 2015

Gnoman posted:

Grenadiers?

Before or after they threw grenades?

dublish
Oct 31, 2011


Tank destroyers.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

bewbies posted:

this owns

what's the best historical analogue to modern paratroopers

let's see the criteria is that they have to have a lot of specialized training, doctrine built around them, and be fundamentally never used in that role. maybe like some sort of charioteers? this is hard.

Gnoman posted:

Grenadiers?

this is probably pretty accurate when they had grenades but probably not later on since they weren't specialists at all

PeterCat
Apr 8, 2020

Believe women.

Arquinsiel posted:

How could you not post this gem?
Sure buddy, doing it at night will totally confuse the air defence :allears:

He seems to think that a near-peer adversary won't also have night vision.

Does the 82nd drop enough trucks with their men to have them all drive away from the DZ?

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



It would seem that there would be utility for paratroopers but that utility is along the lines of having a force suddenly pop up on their flank just before the big push. Didn't old Adolf stop using them due to the comical casualty rate?

Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010

Tulip posted:

good post

this was very informative thank you!

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

High readiness, high mobility light infantry absolutely have a place in a military that wants to be able to react globally to a crisis within days, but if they had a place in modern high intensity conventional warfare then you would have seen some use of them in either Iraq war.

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feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008

bewbies posted:

this owns

what's the best historical analogue to modern paratroopers

Dragoons (og definition). Lightly armed infantry with a means faster than Shanks Mare to get to vital places on the battlefield quickly and then defend them on foot.

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